New Gas ?

[Vanman]

Well the 15% ethenol is officially in, the court challenge failed. How does this effect motors, fuel lines & pumps as old as ours??

[Totem]

its the Valves that are the problem getting grooved and worn... most of us need a valve job anyway; which begs the question; has anyone come up with a better valve replacement thats more heat or corrosion resistant? alas it won't help valve seat head wear even if so

[zero]

Time will tell as to just how many gas stations will sell it and offer no alternative. I doubt E15 is goiing to have an noticeable effect on older rigs e.g. Toyotas. I suspect the problems will be more prevalent in marine use.

We've had only E10 available where I live for a few years and I don't know of any verifed claims of damage. Adding another 5% is going to decrease fuel mileage a bit more. It will also cause harder starting in cold weather with carbed engines. Also shortens valve-train life - but by how much?

Similar problems and discussion has come up when unleaded was mandated around 1973. Some older engines dids suffer, and still do from valve-seat recession due to it. A hardened valve train will do fine.

A few years ago when ultra-low-sulfur diesel was mandated- it became required to add extra lube to diesel fuel to prevent injection pump wear in rotary-type distributor pump (Bosch VE, Stanadyne DB and DS, Diesel Kiki, AMBAC, etc.).

So yeah - new E15 gas and also ultra-low sulfur diesel results in 2-5% poorer fuel mileage. With the gas, there will be some cold weather starting issues when carbs are used in below zero temps. Some older rubber parts will also suffer but just about any rubber part that is replaced now adays will be resistant using Viton, EPDM, nitrile, etc.

To be - the worst problem as I see it is our tax dollars being thrown away on incentive programs to create this stuff. In my area - corn growing has gone nut since prices are so high due to ethanol demands. A HUGE waste of money.

[Maineah]

Time will tell every one thought the sky was falling when they went to 10% frankly I personally have had no problem with 10% and I have a lot of small gas powered things. The power output will take a hit but will another 5% make that much difference? There still is energy in ethanol just not as much as gasoline. As far as pumps etc. that should not make much difference.

[Maineah]

To be - the worst problem as I see it is our tax dollars being thrown away on incentive programs to create this stuff. In my area - corn growing has gone nut since prices are so high due to ethanol demands. A HUGE waste of money.

I agree with that but a couple of years the subsides were dropped. To me making fuel out of food is a bad ideal there are better methods but not a great a profit.

[zero]

I agree with that but a couple of years the subsides were dropped. To me making fuel out of food is a bad ideal there are better methods but not a great a profit.

Direct corn-growing subsidies were dropped but the corn prices keep going up due to the demand for ethanol. In my area - those with equipment have literally come knocking on doors seeking permission to plant corn on "unused" ground. We have many former sweet corn, pumpkin, and hay/alfalfa fields that are now planting in corn every year. I am in a former major dairy farm area that now has many large fields. This nonsense affects almost ALL food prices due to production diversion for ethanol.

I have noted a distinct difference with cold starting with the E10 gas. E15 will only be worse. But - how many people own carbed equipment now-adays that gets started and used at temps below 0 F? I've got two gas farm tractors that would fire right up at 10 below zero and now won't start at zero without a lot of effort. I installed electric block heaters so it's no big deal.

Another issue is the E15 causes a leaner air-fuel ratio. On some small power equipment that lacks adjustable main jets - it can be an issue. Same can be said when you add extra oil to the mix of a two-stroke-cycle engine and cannot readjust. More oil in the mix creates a leaner mixture.

[Totem]

on my yellowstone trip one of my best gas mileages attained was on e10 mid grade unleaded 89 octane. to me thats fine but is it eating my valve seats and valves? how does one "harden" valve seats or valves?

Can valves be sent to be supercooled like in liquid nitrogen or something?

[WME]

IF you engine was designed to run on unleaded fuel then it has "hardened" valves and valve seats.

[Totem]

not the question i asked... obviously new motors are flex fuel compliant; but really i don't want to put in a new motor; if i do a valve job i would consider performance parts though? anyone hear of this type of thing at all? for example i knew of a hardening company in florida that you could send anything from engine blocks to razor blades to be cold hardened; would this type of thing help?

[WME]

No lead became the fuel in the early 70s. Anything built much after 72 will have hardened seats and doing anything else to harden them will be a waste of money.

[waiter]

We faced these problems in Aviation for some time. First it was lead, then the introduction of alcohol. I test for alcohol in my fuel, I can also burn unleaded or leaded in my plane, it is certified for either one.

Lead isn't a big deal, Its there for two purposes, 1) increase the octain rating ( how a fuel burns) and more importantly, 2) to lubricate the valves. The octain problem is addressed by higher quality fuel, blend and minor additives. the lubrication is addressed by harder materials. In an unusual turn of events. the Automotive industry was far ahead of the aviation industry on this one. Aircraft engines have been using harder materials for seats and vales for about 40 years, this was more for longevity and durability, and not so much the transition to lead free.

Alcohol is a bigger problem.

There are two things to watch for, and the higher the alcohol content the more these problems will start to surface.

1) Water - Alcohol absorbs water, when the temperature (or altitude) changes, so does the absorption point. Its possible, if the alcohol was at or near saturation, for the water to condense out of the alcohol. When this happen, if the fluid temperature is below 32deg, the water turns to ice, this can freeze fuel lines, which is not a good thing in a car, and can be a tragic thing in a plane.

2) Incompatibility with fuel system components, i.e. rubber, viton, gaskets, epoxy, Alcohol can cause some of these materials to alter their state, i.e. o-rings can go brittle or swell, seals could deteriorate, epoxy fuel tanks can start leaking as the alcohol leaches out the epoxy.

[zero]

on my yellowstone trip one of my best gas mileages attained was on e10 mid grade unleaded 89 octane. to me thats fine but is it eating my valve seats and valves? how does one "harden" valve seats or valves?

Can valves be sent to be supercooled like in liquid nitrogen or something?

You cannot successfully harden just any metal to what's needed. It has to be a certain alloy to start with and then it's molecular stucture gets a bit re-arranged when heat or work hardened. You can look up any alloy and get specs on how hard it can be made with various treatments. You cannot take mild steel, or plain iron and make it super hard.

Many tractor and auto makers used the parent metal in cylinder heads for the valve seats and induction hardened them in place. That only works with cast-iron heads. When aluminum heads became popular, steel valve-seat inserts had to be used and they are always made of some sort of super hardenable alloy. When unleaded gas became the only available highway gasoline, just about all cylinder heads - cast iron and aluminum came with valve-seat inserts.

When doing a valve job on an older engine with integral seats - instead of re-cutting the seats (as used to be done in a routine valve job), they are bored out oversize and hardened inserts are pressed in (if cast iron). If aluminum - very often the steel-alloy seats must be supercooled and then pressed in. We used to use liquid nitrogen since it's readily available in this dairy farming area. Liquid nitrogen is commonly available here since the guys that artificially inseminate cows carry it.

Toyotas from the 70s tend to have high quality valves and seats OEM so it's not really what I regard as an issue. The exhaust valves take the worst beating so if someone DID want an upgrade - higher quality valves can be retrofitted.

Even back when the change was made from leaded to unleaded - many of the older engines with "soft" seats held up fine. The big problems showed up after a valve job. Old seats get hammered and "work hardened." But when you take a cutter or stone to them to make a new 30 or 45 degree surface - the hardness is lost.

Much of this is moot. Just about every engine made for auto and truck use since the mid-70s has hardened valve train comonents.

[Vanman]

waiter

Alcohol is a bigger problem.

There are two things to watch for, and the higher the alcohol content the more these problems will start to surface.

1) Water - Alcohol absorbs water, when the temperature (or altitude) changes, so does the absorption point. Its possible, if the alcohol was at or near saturation, for the water to condense out of the alcohol. When this happen, if the fluid temperature is below 32deg, the water turns to ice, this can freeze fuel lines, which is not a good thing in a car, and can be a tragic thing in a plane.

Will keeping the gas tank full help any with the water absorbation problem ??

2) Incompatibility with fuel system components, i.e. rubber, viton, gaskets, epoxy, Alcohol can cause some of these materials to alter their state, i.e. o-rings can go brittle or swell, seals could deteriorate, epoxy fuel tanks can start leaking as the alcohol leaches out the epoxy.

That was the main complaint, some are saying the extra 5% is a tipping point for these kind of problems. True ??

[waiter]

Alcohol in airplanes is unacceptable, at any concentration. My fuel certification states No Alcohol. (Aircraft must burn a certified fuel)

With the legalize aside, water isn't an issue unless you make sudden altitude or temperate changes. These are rare events in a car, (sea level to 12,000 ft in 5 minutes, or 90 deg to 30 deg in 10 minutes, this just doesn't happen in a car.

However, the problem with alcohol incompatability will be a big issue in cars, plastic gas tanks, fuel pumps, o-rings, fuel injection or carb parts parts. unless the plastic and rubber components are specifically designed for alcohol compatibility, there is going to be problems. 10% may require a long exposure before parts start swelling or disintegrate, raise the concentration to 15% and the exposure time decreases.

John Mc

88 Dolphin 4 Auto

[Boots]

Time will tell as to just how many gas stations will sell it and offer no alternative. I doubt E15 is goiing to have an noticeable effect on older rigs e.g. Toyotas. I suspect the problems will be more prevalent in marine use.

We've had only E10 available where I live for a few years and I don't know of any verifed claims of damage. Adding another 5% is going to decrease fuel mileage a bit more. It will also cause harder starting in cold weather with carbed engines. Also shortens valve-train life - but by how much?

Similar problems and discussion has come up when unleaded was mandated around 1973. Some older engines dids suffer, and still do from valve-seat recession due to it. A hardened valve train will do fine.

A few years ago when ultra-low-sulfur diesel was mandated- it became required to add extra lube to diesel fuel to prevent injection pump wear in rotary-type distributor pump (Bosch VE, Stanadyne DB and DS, Diesel Kiki, AMBAC, etc.).

So yeah - new E15 gas and also ultra-low sulfur diesel results in 2-5% poorer fuel mileage. With the gas, there will be some cold weather starting issues when carbs are used in below zero temps. Some older rubber parts will also suffer but just about any rubber part that is replaced now adays will be resistant using Viton, EPDM, nitrile, etc.

To be - the worst problem as I see it is our tax dollars being thrown away on incentive programs to create this stuff. In my area - corn growing has gone nut since prices are so high due to ethanol demands. A HUGE waste of money.

I think all of your concerns are ill placed, Europe has been running low sulphur for well over forty years, and they have that covered in the engine design. Always remember that it is the oil companies are to blame for blocking this, through their lobbyists. The reason it is more expensive (and way less profitable) to produce a low sulphur content fuel; it has to be refined more to remove the extra sulphur. It is also the fault of the car manufacturers because they too benefitted by using high sulphur, it was way cheaper to use the sulphur content to lubricate the pistons than to produce a high quality engine. And finally it is the fault of every citizen who cheered on the cheaper cars, opting to put the extra cash in their pockets and ignoring the environment costs, green house gases and haze/soot. Ultimately this short sightedness and ignorance will come to you all, with more violent environmental problems like hurricanes and floods. Take a hard look around you and see what this has brought to your door steps.

[zero]

I think all of your concerns are ill placed, Europe has been running low sulphur for well over forty years, and they have that covered in the engine design. Always remember that it is the oil companies are to blame for blocking this, through their lobbyists. The reason it is more expensive (and way less profitable) to produce a low sulphur content fuel; it has to be refined more to remove the extra sulphur. It is also the fault of the car manufacturers because they too benefitted by using high sulphur, it was way cheaper to use the sulphur content to lubricate the pistons than to produce a high quality engine. And finally it is the fault of every citizen who cheered on the cheaper cars, opting to put the extra cash in their pockets and ignoring the environment costs, green house gases and haze/soot. Ultimately this short sightedness and ignorance will come to you all, with more violent environmental problems like hurricanes and floods. Take a hard look around you and see what this has brought to your door steps.

You've got me a little lost with some of your comments. Europe had huge problems with unleaded gas and valve-seat recession with gas engines. They had a much bigger problem then here in the USA.

With diesels? You state " the fault of the car manufacturers because they too benefitted by using high sulphur, it was way cheaper to use the sulphur content to lubricate the pistons . . "

What the heck does that mean? Sulfur has nothing to do with lubricating anything and diesel fuel does not lubricate engine pistons ever. Maybe your reference is to the pistons that are used in in-line fuel injection pumps?? If so, that has NOTHING to do with my comments since I stated the problem was in rotary-distributor injection pumps and NOT in-lines. These pumps fail at the head-and-rotor area and in-line pumps do not have any such thing.

I'll add that a rotary injection pump used with good fuel can last 1,000,000 miles with no major metal parts failure. If that life was cut in half- I doubt the average diesel owner would even know it. In the USA, even most mechanics are clueless when it comes to pump problems and just remove them and sent out to get fixed.

People in pump shops see the problems (as did I), and also - major pump makers like Stanadyne have published metal wear test results with various fuels showing the increased wear.

Sulfur natrually occurs in diesel fuel and has nothing to with lubrication. The problem is that the process used to remove the sulfur also removes lube from the fuel. Then - for the fuel to be used in motor-vehicles - a lube additive must be put back in to replace what was lost. The US standards for lube additive do not bring the lube up the specs called for in the older mehcanical rotary injection pumps. The US Government is not overly concerned since the vast majority of diesels on road now do not have rotary mechanical pumps. Many US Army vehicles still do and do NOT conventional diesel fuel. Regardless - the US military has had miserable fuel injection pump problems and tried installing "arctic" kits into their GM diesels in an effort to make them last longer.