T-stats

[tlava]

anyone here have any experience with FailSafe t-stats? they claim to help prevent overheat events, which seems like a good bit of insurance, but I seem to recall someone either on this board or the Nissan MH board advising to stay away from them for some reason... There is a big price diff--$48 at AZ for a 170 FS, and $11 for a Duralast 170..

[Riverman77]

I too, have heard the very same concern as you have about these Fail Safe thermostats.

I can't say for certain if it is true or not.

When in doubt, I simply use the 'correct' Japanese product, right from the Dealer.

-Riverman77

[Derek up North]

If I'm not mistaken, the Dealer will tell you to install a 190F t'stat in your 22R-E (180F if a V6). Not a 170F.

[zero]

Looks like a waste of money to me. The description states . . .

"When overheating occurs, Fail-Safe automatically locks in the open position to permit maximum coolant flow."

Well duh ?? That is what a standard conventional thermostat does -except a standard stat will close again if the engine coolant gets cool.

If an engine overheats and the thermostat snaps and gets stuck in "open", it's likely it will overheat anyway if the actual cause lies elsewhere.

I find conventional thermostats to be simple and extremely reliable. Just about all on the market now are copper and stainless-steel. I got my start in auto/truck mechanics back when many using plain mineral-laden water for coolant (in the summer) and corrosion inhibitors were not commonly used. Back then j(1960s) I'd see the occaisional stuck thermostat (usually stuck open) and that was due to crud and corrosion. Now adays it is rare to find any car or truck that doesn't have some sort of glycol based coolant conditioner in it. I've been active in auto/truck/heavy equipment mechanics for over 40 years and have not seen an actual stuck thermostat in a car or truck in over 20 years. I HAVE found a few with globs of silicone-rubber plugging them up. That is the fault of sloppy mechanics going wild with room-temperature-vulcanizing compounds (RTV sealants) instead of gaskets. I have found vehicles with the wrong aftermarket thermostats - but that is bad application and not bad engineering.

I'm sure somewhere there is a recent thermostat that has somehow malfucntioned. Anything mechanical can. If a standard thermostat can malfunction - so can a "Fail-Safe" stat.

[zero]

If I'm not mistaken, the Dealer will tell you to install a 190F t'stat in your 22R-E (180F if a V6). Not a 170F.

That sounds right. All the newer vehicles are designed to run hot to keep emissions down and MPGs up. The hotter an engine is, the more efficient it is. That why there were experiments with "super hot" ceramic engines that never came into use (yet).

One note about thermostats. When sellers put labels on them like "170F, 192F ,etc. it does not mean they operate the same as an OEM type thermostat with the same temp rating number.

E.g. - a Toyota with a 2.2 gas engine calls for a thermostat that starts to open at 177 degrees F and is fully open at around 200 degrees F. It is usually labled as a 192 F or 195F thermostat - but obviously there is more to it. Besides the temp opening ranges, flow rate is also important - especially on some bigger engines. This is how much a thermostat can flow when fully open.

For these reasons - I think it makes sense to buy only OE -clone type thermostats. The brand doesn't matter to me - but having one designed to work as designed does. They only cost $8-$10. When you read the small print in an aftermarket thermostat description - it will usually say "OE temp", and/or "OE design" to let you know it is likely the best choice.

One example of a flow problem. Back in the 80s-90s, GM was having overheating problems with several diesels when pulling heavy loads. They come OEM with high-flow 195 F thermostats. NAPA et. al. were selling Stant Superstats at a special low 160F rating. When used, the Stant 160F caused the engines to run hotter then with the OEM 195F stat. Why? The Stant thermostat flows 30% less when open - and the 160 F rating did not stop the engines from running too hot.

[tlava]

Interesting--OK--so I guess just go with the Duralast for a sawbuck? The Duralast is rated at 170, and the des. on Autozone states--"OE recommended temperature," and, yes, copper and SS construction, whereas the 180 is listed as an "alternate" temp; the t-state on the OEM Nissan site, however (this is a Nissan V6 Sunrader, BTW, if that matters), is rated 82c, = 179.5 fh--I think I'd prefer the Duralast 170 over the Nissan OEM 179.5, if no real quality difference? also, $10 as opposed to $27 after shipping for the name brand /OEM, not that that would be an issue...

[MontanaChinook]

GO WITH OEM T-STATS. Always. Period. No reason to go with anything else, endless stories from people/reasons not to buy non-toyota.

[zero]

Yes, there are endless stories about many auto/truck problems and many are based on just that . . . stories. Told both by mechanics and non-mechanics to people with no mechanical experience and they get passed around with zero verification. I doubt you're going to find any good mechanic concerned about using a "non-Toyota" thermostat- whatever that is? Toyota does not make thermostats. It buys them from other makers just like you are doing.

If you really get concerned about something that resembles or perhaps is the exact same as what Toyota buys - Beck Arlney usually has them. In fact, some of my Beck-Arnley parts have come in Toyota packages. Here's the one for the 3 liter V6 for $7.

BECK/ARNLEY Part # 1430691
ORIGINAL EQUIPMENT TEMPERATURE; INCLUDES SEAL NO; INCLUDES HOUSING NO; TEMPERATURE 180 F

[tlava]

Curious--I checked OEM Nissan online,and they told me the t-stat was 180(179.5, or 82 c); I called a local Nissan dealer--OEM part, and it is rated at 169.5 (76.5c)--why the difference, if both OEM parts?

[waiter]

Like everyone else, regular standard ole OEM thermostat works fine, Stick to OEM temperature. In the old days it wasn't a big deal to go up or down 10 or 15 degrees. HOWEVER, Today, the electronic Fuel Injection and Ignition take into account engine temperature when they control fuel and spark.

John Mc

88 Dolphin 4 Auto

[zero]

I've only witnessed two occasions when there was a need for an OEM, or exact OEM duplicate thermostat. That was with GM 6.2 and 6.5 diesels and Toyota 22RE engines (just some of them).

With GM - the issue was flow. The OEM was made for GM by a non-mainstream company and had much more flow then aftermarket stats like Stant. After a few years - the aftermarket sellers also carried the correct high-flow stat for a few extra bucks.

With Toyota 22RE engines - Toyota has a problem with the heater core having a bad effect on the thermostat operation. This cause a problem described by Toyota as this:

Some 1984 pickup trucks and 1983-1984 Celica models, equipped with 22R-E engines, may experience a condition called "temperature gauge overshoot". After starting a cold engine the temperature gauge will indicate a higher than normal engine temperature for a short time just prior to the thermostat opening. After the thermostat opens, the temperature gauge will return to the normal range. A new double valve thermostat has been made available to reduce temperature gauge overshoot.

[Vanman]

When I modified the cooling system for my 71 Dodge van I got the "hi-flow" thermostat, but tested it with the Stant and the original Dodge in a pan on the stove with a candy thermometor. The OEM started opening first and as the temp increased opened as much as the "hi-flow". The Stant did not open as much as the other two. I went with a new Dodge one. As they say your mileage may vary, but this is an easy test to do.

Since then I've stuck with OEM thermostats and had good results, when there's been a problem with the cooling, it's been elsewhere, ie Toyota fan clutch.

[zero]

When I modified the cooling system for my 71 Dodge van I got the "hi-flow" thermostat, but tested it with the Stant and the original Dodge in a pan on the stove with a candy thermometor. The OEM started opening first and as the temp increased opened as much as the "hi-flow". The Stant did not open as much as the other two. I went with a new Dodge one. As they say your mileage may vary, but this is an easy test to do.

Since then I've stuck with OEM thermostats and had good results, when there's been a problem with the cooling, it's been elsewhere, ie Toyota fan clutch.

Dodge AKA Fiat-owned-Chrysler doesn't make thermostats either. But - in the case of the GM diesels -the only aftermarket thermostats with the bigger high-flow opening were for big-block Dodge-Chryslers. 440s as I recall. Dodge and Ford got the high-flow thermostats from Robert Shaw company. So can anyone else if they know what to ask for.

[MontanaChinook]

Yes, yes, no auto company makes their own parts, as far as I know (I'm sure you'll correct me), but I think we can agree, not all of us having as much knowledge, that it's ok to use Toyota and OEM interchangeably without having to be corrected. And if you know just a little more, you can find an OEM part at NAPA or online from someone other than Toyota. Same idea.

These days it's somewhat rare that a company makes their own parts. I play banjo. There's lot's of talk about buying "American made" banjos. Well...the wood comes from overseas, in more than 50% of the cases they aren't making one single metal part on the banjo, but importing them all from Czech Republic. But most people would call the metal parts they buy, as replacements, from the Gibson company, to be Gibson parts. Even though they're really Prucha. It's not wrong to call them Gibson parts. They are what Gibson would put on your banjo if they were making it new. Calling them Gibson parts is ok by me.

Seems like every time I see someone post about a temperature problem, and they've just replaced their thermostat, going back to OEM solves the problem. Obviously there are more things that can cause temp issues.

I'd just say there's no "upgrade" for Toyota thermostats. Stick with stock.

[tlava]

great discussion. I want ahead and ordered an OEM from a local Nissan dealer, mainly because it was rated at 170, rather than 180 like the one the "other" Nissan dealer had... it cost a few bucks more than the Duralast made to OE specs, but what the heck... figured I'd have my cake and eat it.

as for installation on the Nissan V6-- the little i guess air relief (or "jiggle") valve should be at 12:00? First funnel in coolant till the funnel fills and stops funneling, then put in t-stat and seal up? (high temp silicone?)?

as for the current t-stat-- which is actually new, but not sure what temp etc-- once removed, might make a good sound box, with a few strings attached, to start the parts party off....

[Derek up North]

as for the current t-stat-- which is actually new, but not sure what temp etc--

I'd stick it in a pot of water on the stove and see what temperature it opens at. Spare part?

[Maineah]

great discussion. I want ahead and ordered an OEM from a local Nissan dealer, mainly because it was rated at 170, rather than 180 like the one the "other" Nissan dealer had... it cost a few bucks more than the Duralast made to OE specs, but what the heck... figured I'd have my cake and eat it.

as for installation on the Nissan V6-- the little i guess air relief (or "jiggle") valve should be at 12:00? First funnel in coolant till the funnel fills and stops funneling, then put in t-stat and seal up? (high temp silicone?)?

as for the current t-stat-- which is actually new, but not sure what temp etc-- once removed, might make a good sound box, with a few strings attached, to start the parts party off....

The Nissan V6 is supposed to have a 170 stat. I do not remember if that is a compound thermostat and it maybe off set for a reason. After having inferior aftermarket parts fail and not fit properly I would spend the extra money for the real thing.

[zero]

. Calling them Gibson parts is ok by me.

Seems like every time I see someone post about a temperature problem, and they've just replaced their thermostat, going back to OEM solves the problem. Obviously there are more things that can cause temp issues.

I'd just say there's no "upgrade" for Toyota thermostats. Stick with stock.

Gibson is a whole other story. Seems the US government is trying to put them out of business which I find hard to understand (over exotic hardwoods).

As to temp problems and "problem usually solved" after buying an OEM thermostat? That's not the way it usually goes from what I've witnessed. Sometimes - yes. The thermostat is usually the easiest thing to blame and replace so it often targeted first. As to posts on the web on the subject? Often worth what we pay for them which is nothing. Some true, many based in BS and no way to verify. If something "sounds" good on the Web it often travels and multiplies fast. BS times 1000 times is still BS. I've had to fix many vehicles over years with heating/cooling problems. Very few were caused by thermostats. Half-plugged radiator cores are the most common issue and often the last thing to be diagnosed. Fan clutches, head gaskets, air flow problems, and probably thermostats at the end of the list.

My point on thermostats is not rooted in concern about who makes the parts. It's just the fact that OEM is not the only source for an equally good product and sometimes aftermarket is better. That even, at times, applies to Toyota. It's been stated here that that the only thermostat worth buying is from Toyota and nowhere else. THAT is not true and is easily verified. What you DO get from Toyota is reasonable surety of getting the correctly designed part, whereas there is not as much concern from an aftermarket parts seller. Stores like NAPA have databases of parts often showing which part is closest to OEM and other parts - more commonly stocked - as "fits all " and good enough. Aftermarket sellers strive to make one part fit many things and thus cut down on inventories. I've met few counter people who care or even know the difference.

I don't buy a lot of over-the-counter Toyota parts so I'm not sure if they always provide the same part throughout history for a given vehicle. I know for sure that many companies - e.g. GM, Subaru, and Chrysler do not. One case in point is exhaust system parts for GM trucks in the 90. I used to always buy my parts from Chevy because they were double wall and much more durable than an afermarket pipe from Borla or Walker. Twice the price too. Now? If I go to Chevy and order the same OEM pipes -they come from Walker. Same with GM glow plugs that came from AC Delco. Absolute junk. After years of failures, owners started buying aftermarket from Beru of Germany. Now ? GM buys the same Beru plugs and puts the AC Delco name on the box. Ford did the same thing with Motorcraft brand. Sometimes it's the aftermarket companies that solve problems for the OEM guys.

[Sunnynshare]

I used to have a couple of dreaded Bricklins and still have a 71 426 hemi Charger. Without getting into a bunch of stuff, a few conversations centered on leaving thermostats completely out with resulting overheating because the water did not stay in the radiator long enough to cool. Wow, folks came out of the woodwork claiming that. Seems there are more stories about cooling and the concomitant overheating than any other issue.

As to thermostat failure I have had only one so far on a girlfriend's Pinto – failed open and the car would not heat up. I was inexperienced; I may have even swapped the heater core, before finally finding it. That was in '79 and still makes me shake my head. If interested, here's my hemi.

Kim

[MontanaChinook]

True enough. "OEM" suppliers for parts change over the years.

It's true, it's just "stuff I read on the Internet". But it's the same site that when I bought my 83 and slowly realized it needed a full rebuild, I had people guide me through everything from diagnosing the issue, to disassembly, parts, and reassembly. People know what they're talking about. There is the occasional person who talks like they know, but don't. And everyone, whether on the Internet or face to face, will be mistaken from time to time. But there's just as much crap out there face to face. The Internet is not some inherently false place. It's just easier and faster to find all the good AND bad info. I've routinely found info on toyota based sites that my mechanics and parts guys don't know. There are people on yotatech, marlin crawler and pirate 4x4 who know more about toyota trucks than every mechanic in my town combined.

I have seen people post with temp issues, and mention they just replaced their thermostat with some aftermarket "upgraded" part. They're encouraged to stick with OEM. Problem goes away...I don't have the experience you do, I just know that I've read, on the Internet, more than a dozen people on just one toyota site who go aftermarket with tstats, and immediately have issues. Going back to OEM corrects the problem.

The issue of who supplies the OEM parts and whether aftermarket can be better is a whole different discussion. Marlin crawler and quite a few other offroad centered companies are making stronger-than-stock parts, for 4x4s, mostly. But in my very limited experience, that's about it. When it comes to your typical, non 4x4 parts, unless you know the business, and know who supplies toyota with each OEM part, and know in which case the aftermarket is making a better part and in which case they aren't (and the majority of us aren't in a position to know those things), I think the advice of "always go with OEM" is sound.

Or a more correct way for people to frame their question, to avoid overwhelming them with confusing debates like this, would be "is there an aftermarket (insert part name here) that is an upgrade from what toyota sells?" Or when I suggest sticking with OEM, I can say "I thinks it's best to stick with OEM, in most cases", and not go any more in depth than that.

[MontanaChinook]

And Gibson stopped making banjos anyways, so I guess it doesn't matter...federal exotic wood raids aside.

[zero]

The Net and WWW is full of bad and good info. When a person with little mechanical experience tries to judge what is useful and what it not - the task can be near impossible. It's difficult enough to do when a person has a strong background on the subject. Good writing skills are sometimes mistaken for good technical skills.

Vis-a vis info was never much better in my experience. A mechanic overcharges a customer and has installed many more parts then needed until the problem is finally fixed. In many cases, the owner leaves believing all those parts were needed for the problem - and that story gets told. With the NET and WWW, instead of telling a dozen people, maybe 100,000 hear about instead. Some poor guy in the bush of Papau, New Guinea.

And yes - lot of people who really know what they're doing post carefully written accounts. How do you tell? Not always so easy.

I'm been working as a mechanic for over 40 years and yet - when I see a post for a 30 MPG motorhome - part of me almost believes it (for a few moments) if the article is written well.

Back to thermostats. The only situation I know of - where a Toyota-only source thermostat fixes a problem is with mid-1980s trucks with 2.4 EFI engines. The OEM thermostats did not work properly so Toyota sourced two-stage thermostats from Kuze Inc of Japan. From the vast majority of reports I've read - it fixes the problem. As far as know, that Kuze thermostat is not sold by any non-Toyota parts seller. Toyota part # 90916-03070.

Other then that - I believe it will be difficult to find any verified account when a Toyota with an OEM single-stage stat supplied by Fuji-Thomson worked any better then an aftermarket stat from MotorRad, Stand, etc.

I've read many posts on Toyota enthusiast forums where it is claimed that Toyota never had any issues with thermostats until they changed suppliers. Toyota changed from Fuji-Thomson to Kuze Inc. True or not, have no idea. The change might of occurred at the same time that Toyota made other changes that caused the overheating problems and it's all a "cargo-cult" type coincidence.

For anyone that cares - Fuji-Thomson is a joint venture company making OEM thermostats and based in the USA and Japan, with the factory in China. Kuze Inc. is a thermostat maker in Tokyo, Japan.

[MontanaChinook]

Agreed

[Maineah]

Until China gets their QC under control I will not put any part stamped made in China in any thing I own and I really don't care if it costs twice as much.

[Sunnynshare]

The Net and WWW is full of bad and good info. When a person with little mechanical experience tries to judge what is useful and what it not - the task can be near impossible. It's difficult enough to do when a person has a strong background on the subject. Good writing skills are sometimes mistaken for good technical skills.

I have given this a lot of thought over the past few years. Just as background, I worked as a production line mechanic for about 15 years and then went to law school and spent 20 years as a federal lawyer. Never worked on cars professionally but mechanics is mechanics so far as I'm concerned. I never hoarded information and post a lot of videos on fixing different things on youtube.

The problem with newsgroups is that people cannot see the person who is posting. When we judge a person's expertise we take into account all the visual clues as well as the information being presented. Posting on legal issues made this brilliantly clear to me. I would post what I felt is the appropriate legal interpretation and then anonymous people would post their equally well written but legally flawed opinions. How is the reader to know? The posters could be kids. So I almost never publicly give definitive advice anymore and it takes a while for me to accept advice given as correct.

So it was with jedmaris. I read his well written posts and they jibed with my experiences and passed my "test". About a month ago I thought I should write to him and thank him for his expertise. At the risk of embarrassing him, I want to thank him for taking the time to write out well reasoned and informative posts. I, for one, appreciate and learn from them. Kim

[MontanaChinook]

It's true. He's no nonsense and doesn't sugar coat anything and doesn't let even a slight miswording slip by ...but clearly knows what he's talking about.

[tlava]

sorry to return from a rather interesting discussion developing on the role of language in self-presentation to more mundane territory (this could be extended to all other modes/media, as well--think, for eg, about the role of image and body language in dramatic performance, persuasive/"motivational" speaking, politics, etc), but, as I say, I bought the OEM t-stat and fan clutch... To gt back to some matter-of-fact questions: why is one OEM t-stat rated a t 180, and another from a diff. dealer at 170 (the one I bought)?

Are my installation procedures (as outlined on post # 15) correct?

Also, any advice for what type of wrench to use to get the FC nuts loose? it is a very tight space--about 1/2"--I think last time a borrowed a ratcheting- style crescent wrench from Napa....

OK--back to more interesting issues--it's not so much that others fool us; we fool ourselves: we want to believe there is someone out there who can provide the formula for "happy ever after"...

[zero]

Also, any advice for what type of wrench to use to get the FC nuts loose? it is a very tight space--about 1/2"--I think last time a borrowed a ratcheting- style crescent wrench from Napa....

I find the fan-clutch nuts easy to get at as compared to some other trucks. Some trucks require a special fan-wrench.

I know on my 1978 2.2 and my 1987 2.4 trucks - a simple 12 point, 10 mm box-end wrench fits on the nuts easily. If tight for some reason - off-set metric angle wrenches work as well. They used to case $30 for one wrench from places like Snap On and Mack. Now you can buy an entire 14 piece set for $20 when on sale at Harbor Freight.

When I say "box end" wrench I mean a the box end of a combo wrench that is an open-end on the other side That has type has no offset and works great. A true "box wrench" that is a closed box on each end had a big offset and might not work.