stamar Posted January 12, 2013 Share Posted January 12, 2013 ya theres no argument to win dc fridges are best for a semi truck because its running all day so the alternator runs it for free all day. vw vans same reason. theres a dc fridge in the bmw vixen for a big motorhome propane is best because it doesnt run as much it sits. think about it what uses less fossil fuel, the battery generator or propane? Propane is the best if you have to waste fossil fuel. nothing stores energy per gallon like fossil fuel. except uranium. for the average rver the best thing is the standard 3 way fridge definitely thats why its in rvs. if cost is no object its the best thing. If you have to replace the fridge though a propane fridge is so damn expensive that you can get a fridge and literally 500 watts in solar panels and a deep cycle battery for the same money.... and then next time it breaks you just replace that fridge again. propane is better for actually freezing things too. also for things that cant stand to live through a time of no sun for a while.... I just wouldnt buy a new one personally. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stamar Posted January 12, 2013 Share Posted January 12, 2013 if the op bought a dc fridge, odds are he drives a lot its the perfect fit for him. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zero Posted January 12, 2013 Share Posted January 12, 2013 dc fridges are best for a semi truck because its running all day so the alternator runs it for free all day. Semi-trucks with refrigerators and "sleeper cabs" get slept in . More and more - without the engine running. Letting diesel trucks idle all night has become illegal in many places. Some semis get used just like many people use RVs. They drive, stop, eat sleep, and drive again. DC refrigerator and often a diesel fired Webasto cab heater. Installing a DC fridge means no extra propane tank to worry about and no chimney to vent and overall -less weight. I guess if someone wanted to - a diesel refrigerator could be installed . Can't see any purpose for it though. If you want to talk about refrigerators and "efficent" use of fossil fuels - a kerosene/diesel refrigerator must be more cost efficient then a propane unit. A dollar buys more BTUs in diesel than it does with propane in much of the USA. Many new RVs are coming with compressor refrigerators instead of propane. It cuts down on weight and cost and the newer DC refrigerators are very efficient. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stamar Posted January 12, 2013 Share Posted January 12, 2013 not too many definitely. the dc refridgerator has been around since the 70s or longer and most people propane is a better fit. Ya a semi truck doesnt sit in a campsite for a week or months. if it did Im positive theyd want a propane fridge. the smart ones at least a dc fridge in that situation is next to worthless needing to run a huge semi truck engine to keep it going. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stamar Posted January 12, 2013 Share Posted January 12, 2013 Ya an electric fridge is best iif you drive a lot no doubt. Iim going to coin a phrase just for this section of the forum.... But if you have a fridge in your rv and you are burning gasoline tocharge batteries to save money on propane...... What you have is a retarded fridge. You were listening to the wrong person here and you got caught up in psycho babble. You probably are waiting for aliiens to invent technology that increases volts. Not that its an elite crowd but you can spot someone who's an rver. There's way fewer expensive bad ideas they play with. Theres another word I want to coin based on the toyhome electrical forum. A bad idea consultant. Someone caught up in the romantic notion that bad ideas are really good ideas and arguing with people who bother to point out that they are really bad. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zero Posted January 12, 2013 Share Posted January 12, 2013 not too many definitely. the dc refridgerator has been around since the 70s or longer and most people propane is a better fit. Ya a semi truck doesnt sit in a campsite for a week or months. if it did Im positive theyd want a propane fridge. the smart ones at least a dc fridge in that situation is next to worthless needing to run a huge semi truck engine to keep it going. The newer high-efficiciecy Danfoss compressors used in DC refridgerators were not around in 70s. It's a fairly new technology. So are some of the insulating materials being used; And yes - semi truck usually does not sit in a campsite for "weeks or months." Neither do many RVs. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stevo Posted January 12, 2013 Author Share Posted January 12, 2013 I want to minimize the possibility of fire as much as possible and I like being able to park anywhere I want regardless of the slope which means I'll probably be going with a DC fridge. I'm going to do a few mods to this Edgestar fridge/freezer that others have done on the Expedition Portal forum and probably use it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zero Posted January 12, 2013 Share Posted January 12, 2013 I want to minimize the possibility of fire as much as possible and I like being able to park anywhere I want regardless of the slope which means I'll probably be going with a DC fridge. I'm going to do a few mods to this Edgestar fridge/freezer that others have done on the Expedition Portal forum and probably use it. I don't know how much alteration work you want to do. Building an insulated box to fit around the refrigerator makes it much more efficient. One inch or two of polysi insulating board works wonders keeping a fridge cool. The super efficient DC refrigerators like Sundanzer makes come new with 3" of foam insulation. The smaller ones like you're getting don't come with near that much. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stevo Posted January 12, 2013 Author Share Posted January 12, 2013 Yes, doing a lot of traveling in the tropical heat means I'll be incorporating 2" to 3" of foam insulation in the cabinet that I'll put the Edgestar DC fridge in. I'll also replace the current DC cord it came with with one of those locking style cords (or maybe hard-wire it) and use a fan (computer fan maybe) to pull or push more air for the motor. I don't know how much alteration work you want to do. Building an insulated box to fit around the refrigerator makes it much more efficient. One inch or two of polysi insulating board works wonders keeping a fridge cool. The super efficient DC refrigerators like Sundanzer makes come new with 3" of foam insulation. The smaller ones like you're getting don't come with near that much. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Totem Posted January 13, 2013 Share Posted January 13, 2013 Not a fan of a woodburner or propane in an rv? Lets see your "DC" fridge and solar system heat your rig at night. Your only alternative to electric heater is a small propane powered buddy etc. both far more dangerous statistically than your rigs propane or lp powered furnace - the one you are speaking of renouncing with that gear. Thanks for playing. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stamar Posted January 13, 2013 Share Posted January 13, 2013 I hear you stevo if you are putting in the miles you have the right fridge. Smaller ther better and dc..... The side track argument is just that for most people it wouldn't work... Its not personal to you. Just people saying wait. That wouldn't work for me. I drive mine everyday but not enough miles to electric power a fridge. Still even though I don't I would buy an ac fridge for replacement and use intermittant refridgeration because the asking price is so low. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Totem Posted January 13, 2013 Share Posted January 13, 2013 Agreed, 3way or 2 way with propane the best tech available for a fridge, worth the cost if you will be "roughing it" for sure. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zero Posted January 13, 2013 Share Posted January 13, 2013 Your only alternative to electric heater is a small propane powered buddy etc. both far more dangerous statistically than your rigs propane or lp powered furnace - There are other alternatives, just expensive ones. There are gasoline or diesel fired heaters that run off the trucks main fuel tank. I.e., no extra fuel tanks needed. Espar is one of main suppliers, along with Webasto. Some US cars and trucks had them up into the early 80s. Especially air-cooled cars like Corvairs and Volkswagens that needed heat. These heaters are used in military rigs, aircraft, over-the-road tractor-trailer cabs, high end RVs, etc. The Espar Airtronic 5 runs on gasoline and puts out 19,000 BTUs of heat. Uses 1.5 pints of gasoline or diesel per hour when running. Draws 7 amps @ 12 volts when running. Furnace weighs 20 lbs. and measures 21" X 7" X 7". They were common in Europe and Canada for years but are becoming more common now in the USA. The Vixen RV that has been discussed on these forums came with one OEM. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stamar Posted January 13, 2013 Share Posted January 13, 2013 I'm not a fan of a woodburning stove in an rv eiither. I bet in alaska though the possibility of dying from fire is way less urgent than the certainty of dying from cold. You've got to try and be in someone elses shoes we are all having trouble doing that in this discussion. I'm. In portland oregon so wood burning stove in an rv sounds crazy to me. Bbut in alaska id be more like of course why not two? You couldn't even make it through a night with a heat buddy alaska would just laugh at you Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stamar Posted January 13, 2013 Share Posted January 13, 2013 Ya my friend here in portland has. 73 vw thing with gas powered heat. It. Is the only heater in an air cooled engines there's no heater core. the last air cooled vw in the us and I owned one was the 81 vanagon and it. Had no such heater. Its really rare in general and was probably banned in the us. It has electric window defroster heater like a blow dryer. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Totem Posted January 13, 2013 Share Posted January 13, 2013 Don't forget a small nuclear fission reactor. He could put one of those in also, very expensive but have been heating submarines for years and only need fissile plutonium every few years. ( giggle giggle) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stamar Posted January 13, 2013 Share Posted January 13, 2013 I forgot my propane camper fridge was on it was still running 21/2 weeks later. Mine was on from the 23rd to the 8th without using any propane. All I can say is that the thing must use a .lot more when the thing is full. And the ambient temperature is above 50. My friidge uses nothing. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zero Posted January 13, 2013 Share Posted January 13, 2013 Ya my friend here in portland has. 73 vw thing with gas powered heat. It. Is the only heater in an air cooled engines there's no heater core. the last air cooled vw in the us and I owned one was the 81 vanagon and it. Had no such heater. Its really rare in general and was probably banned in the us. . The gas heaters on all the VWs were an option and not standard equipment. So there are VWs from any year that do not have them. VW had a standard air heat-exhanger heater and defroster OEM. The gas and diesel "cab heaters" were never banned. They are still used in a lot of high end equipment. They are just very expensive. A gasoline or diesel fired heater for an RV has a new price tag of 2-3 times the price of a propane heater. I was suprised to see the Vixen came with one -but I guess is was not a "cheap" RV. I want to buy one for my diesel RV. I already have a large diesel fuel tank and want to eliminate the propane tank. Price has been my only problem. The Espar heaters sell used for over $1000. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
waiter Posted January 13, 2013 Share Posted January 13, 2013 On the subject of keeping the beer cold. I've have run my frig well over 4 weeks on a 20lb BBQ tank (I don't remember the exact days,I accidentally left it running one time after a trip). I looked all over the internet to see if I could find a "BTU per hour" consumption for the Dometic 2400 frig, but no luck. So the best I can do is run some equivalent numbers and see if it comes up close. To verify and get an approximate propane consumption, I made the following assumptions. 1) When running on electric there is a 120 watt heater coil that supplies heat to the ammonia boiler. Propane needs to supply an equal amount of heat to the boiler 2) To convert watts to BTU, multiply watts x 3.4 (120 watts x 3.4 = 408 BTU) per hour. Based on the Electric consumption, I would estimate the frig consumes about 400 BTU per hour. If someone finds the number from Dometic, please post it. 3) 1 lb propane produces about 21,000 BTU. So 1lb should run the frig (21,000 BTU divided by 408 BTU = 51.5 hours) 4) 51.5 hours times 20 lbs = 1020 hours for a BBQ tank 5) 1020 hours divided by 24 hrs in a day = 43 days This is about 6 weeks. I estimate you could run the Dometic 2400 about 6 weeks on a 20 lb BBQ tank. John Mc 88 Dolphin 4 Auto Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zero Posted January 13, 2013 Share Posted January 13, 2013 Don't forget a small nuclear fission reactor. He could put one of those in also, very expensive but have been heating submarines for years and only need fissile plutonium every few years. ( giggle giggle) You can order a new Ford pickup truck with a Webasto or Espar heater. I doubt Ford offers a nuclear reactor so I suspect the gas/diesel heaters are more mainstream. Reducing other peoples statements to the "ridiculous" might work in sophist arguments but doing so does not change reality. You stated a void in alternative RV heat and I offered one. Not common to the general public and very expensive but they do exist for anyone who wants to spend the money. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Totem Posted January 13, 2013 Share Posted January 13, 2013 Filling voids with expensive uncommon and hard to find alternatives is borderline hyperbole. Especially if dangerous. There is a good reason why every Tom dick and Harry doesn't have a gasoline heater... I am a Common man. I apologize for my sarcasm, couldn't resist. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zero Posted January 13, 2013 Share Posted January 13, 2013 Filling voids with expensive uncommon and hard to find alternatives is borderline hyperbole. Especially if dangerous. There is a good reason why every Tom dick and Harry doesn't have a gasoline heater... I am a Common man. I apologize for my sarcasm, couldn't resist. Every "Tom, Dick and Harry" does not have an RV either. It is a luxury item. Some invest $1000 in one while others invest over $200,000. I suspect the main reasons why the heaters are not common is price and . . . they are relatively unknown to people at the RV level. They certainly are not "hard of find" if someone wants to buy one. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Totem Posted January 13, 2013 Share Posted January 13, 2013 Fair enough, I just found one on eBay for $300. Now comes my question on opinion... Why ? What do you have against propane? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zero Posted January 13, 2013 Share Posted January 13, 2013 Fair enough, I just found one on eBay for $300. Now comes my question on opinion... Why ? What do you have against propane? I've got a full 1000 gallon tank of propane at my house and am not against it at all. I have a 500 gallon tank at my cabin in the Adirondacks. Our home and barns are heated 100% with wood except during the "in-between" times when it's in the 40s-50s F outside. Then we use propane infrared 28K BTU non-electric heaters and I love them. There have been questions asked about its use and I've posted some pros and cons. That does not mean I don't find it useful for certain things. What I personally do not like about it? Price is one thing. We pay the highest propane prices in the contiguous 48 states. And conveniece for our use? Many states it is illegal to drive down the road with the gas tank turned on. Also illegal to fuel up a truck with the gas fridge running in many places. Propane fridge needs the RV to be fairly level which is near impossible for the way we often camp. Propane refrigerators are heavier and more expensive then electric -new or used. What I DO like about propane? It is great for long-term camping IF refills are available for a reasonable price. It is very handy for cooking when we need to cook inside the RV. We prefer to use a wood fire or a Coleman gasoline stove when we can cook outside. I really like the older propane furnaces that use NO electricity. I still have two RVs with them. My 1959 Shasta has a convection propane furnace and propane lights. I have it parked in the woods with two 100 lb. propane tanks. It's now a part-time use "hunting shack" on wheels. Just about anytime I've mentioned propane or electric I've qualified my statements about it being good for some and not for all. Last I checked - the definition of an "RV" is a vehicle that transports people and enhanceds recreation. If someone takes an RV and parks it somewhere to live in it - it is no longer being used as a "vehicle." That kind of use can result in different preferences then those that travel by day and camp at night (like my family does). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zero Posted January 13, 2013 Share Posted January 13, 2013 Fair enough, I just found one on eBay for $300. Now comes my question on opinion... Why ? What do you have against propane? I just checked Ebay and the cheapest used "sort of" Espar I see is $440. I am not counting items that are in auction format and being bid on. Where is the one for $300? If it's there and the large 18K BTU model for 12 volts - I'll buy it. http://www.ebay.com/itm/Tripac-Espar-Airtronics-D2-Diesel-Bunk-Heater-Assembly-Like-Webasto-/121045933103?hash=item1c2ee65c2f&item=121045933103&pt=Other_Vehicle_Parts&vxp=mtr Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stevo Posted January 13, 2013 Author Share Posted January 13, 2013 Hah hah, I'm not sure how this discussion got into heaters and wood stoves but thats okay because I'm learning a lot here. :-)Some have mentioned how expensive AC/ DC fridges are, and those Engels, Arbs, and National Luna's are expensive, but the Edgestar I bought (see beginning of this thread) is sort of a knock-off of the expensive ones and has been successfully used for at least 4 years based on a 120+ page thread (and still growing) at the Expedition Portal forum. At only $278 shipped to my door compared to $1635 for the comparable Engel http://tinyurl.com/agszevu, I figured it was worth a try. I found out yesterday it will fit into my 18' Sunrader by 1/8" on each side so I'm happy about that.Next question for the purposes of building an energy independent Toy motorhome...As a backup to solar on cloudy days, what do you think about using one of these little 63cc, 800 Watt generators at Harbor Freight Tools http://tinyurl.com/cyh5rot (on sale for $99) to power a battery charger that can put out enough amps to charge 2 to 3 batteries? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Derek up North Posted January 13, 2013 Share Posted January 13, 2013 That would fall outside of my definition of 'energy independent'. How about wind power? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stevo Posted January 13, 2013 Author Share Posted January 13, 2013 Independent as in I'm not plugged into city 110 volt power. I've seen some cool wind power setups on some motorhomes so that could be a possibility too. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Totem Posted January 14, 2013 Share Posted January 14, 2013 I just checked Ebay and the cheapest used "sort of" Espar I see is $440. I am not counting items that are in auction format and being bid on. Where is the one for $300? If it's there and the large 18K BTU model for 12 volts - I'll buy it.http://www.ebay.com/itm/Tripac-Espar-Airtronics-D2-Diesel-Bunk-Heater-Assembly-Like-Webasto-/121045933103?hash=item1c2ee65c2f&item=121045933103&pt=Other_Vehicle_Parts&vxp=mtr You missed it; it had 3 mins left, said it was a military one. Looked like it would fit where a toy home furnace would go. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stamar Posted January 14, 2013 Share Posted January 14, 2013 I had this set up in mind before. Unfortunately you'll. Be burning a lot more gas than I'm burning propane. Dependent on how much you are driving of course. I just don't think you will drive enough in reality to charge a refrigerator personally. But I must be wrong... If you have a battery bank that big you need a generator for recharging emergencies. Good or bad one. That one is cheap. Jjd suggests simiilar parts but get a dc charger make your own.... and pray you don't use it or you made a big mistake iin the math of this equation Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Totem Posted January 14, 2013 Share Posted January 14, 2013 Go with a gasifier for energy independence. Once it's cracking correctly you can pretty much feed it anything to burn and get plenty of juice. Instructables even did a Honda prelude conversion to one. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stamar Posted January 14, 2013 Share Posted January 14, 2013 My personaal experience with rv and alternator solar panel charging shows this idea does not have a lot of potential. But I haven't been keeping records yet. I'm actually not even keeping up with the lights and the furnace yet much less adding more things to charge. I am struggling just to keep my deep cycle from being damaged while running just the stock furnace.... when I start my car the alternator screeches into high gear to deal wiith it. And I have led lights and a tablet computer now, I'm like the greenest full time rver on record. The thing with the fridge too though is if it works half the time that's still something The downside to this is the deep cycle batteries you kill. Definitely a costco battery experiment. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stamar Posted January 14, 2013 Share Posted January 14, 2013 you know speaking of vixens and 12 volt fridges almost every owner said the fridge was worthless It used an alcohol stove too. It used a lot of expensive stuff it was the rv of the future. It strangely enough did not use solar panels but its almost the perfect vehicle to cover the whole roof with as the roof pops out to be at an angle. park it right you can raise the roof based on sun location. It might have been designed with that in minda. Alittle Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stamar Posted January 14, 2013 Share Posted January 14, 2013 I'm interested in a propane furnace that uses no electriicity that jd described. That will be another peice of the energy independant toyhome. Not a critical peice but a worthwhile upgrade. I think its interesting to note that stevo is workking on his propane free toyhome for fulltiming while i m looking for the electricity free toyhome. Solar panels do not run microwaves or refrigerators. I wish they did they dont Propane is awesome whereas the only way the toyhome generates electricity is solar ppanels and super expensive gasoline. Just running this electric fan all day takes more electricity than my solar panel can handle. Electricity is what you want to avoid. Proppane is dirt cheap a lifetime supply is nothing Even your dream electrically generating toyhome is going to have a hell of a time making enough electricity to watch a dvd it doesn't need uneccessary burden. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stamar Posted January 14, 2013 Share Posted January 14, 2013 Ya its weird I think electriciity and propane meet in the toyhome furnace. For next to nothing in propane it kkeeps you warm yet it uses up an entire deep cycle battery a day to spin a fan to send the exhaust out. Propane rules electricity sucks. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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