tlava Posted April 27, 2012 Share Posted April 27, 2012 Not sure this has been discussed before, but it appears that, having removed and resealed most of the windows in an 18' '86 SR, that it is primarily a thin fiberglass shell over 1/2-3/4" plywood, sort of like the old Scotty trailers--i.e., no "studs," just the wood (not sure about the roof, which I assume is thicker glass). This would mean that, at least for the side walls, the fiberglass shell is not self-supporting, as I had previously thought; the plywood is necessary for structural support--so it can still rot & collapse, like stick-built RVs. I guess the only advantage is that there are no roof seams, so less likely to have an issue, though if the windows develop leaks that aren't attended to and over time the wood around those rots you could eventually have a big draft (i.e., after the window falls out, since the are pressure-sealing). I would contrast this with perhaps the Mirage coach that is a self-supporting fiberglass shell--though I hate the layout of those, smaller windows, etc; not sure about the Bandit--I briefly had one but don't recall... I would also contrast the SR type of construction with the Trillium Canadian-made travel trailer, which truly is a self-supporting fiberglass shell--a complete wrap, ceiling to floor, no wood at all in the construction except 3/4" ply encased in fiberglass in the floor--you could throw this thing in the water and it would float. The finish on the inside is fabric directly over fiberglass, somewhat like the Mirage. I would also contrast all of above with the Provan Tiger, which is tubular aluminum const.--light weight, strong; perhaps, all things considered, the best of all ? Please correct if wrong about SR stuff, etc other thoughts? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
linda s Posted April 27, 2012 Share Posted April 27, 2012 Here is a picture of another member here useing his gutted Sunrader shell as scafolding to paint a house. No interior wood support. I don't know what tubular aluminum framing your talking about with the Tiger because I have been doing extensive work on my Tiger and have found none. Plywood box with a thin aluminum skin. Mine is the XL and the fiberglass roof is only 1/16 of an inch thick compared to the 1/4 inch shell of the Sunraders. The wood you see when resealing the windows on the Sunrader are just furring strips glued to the shell so they had something to attach the paneling and cabinets too. Not structural at all. The only wood that is structural on a Sunrader is the floor which is the weak point. Still an easy fix I managed by myself following the guidelines Greg set when he redid his Linda S Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
waiter Posted April 27, 2012 Share Posted April 27, 2012 My daughter sent me a group of photos titled "Why women outlive men". I believe this photo needs to be added to that group. John Mc 88 Dolphin 4 Auto Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tlava Posted April 27, 2012 Author Share Posted April 27, 2012 Hi Linda-- Your Provan is the hard top, right? and I think a bit newer than mine (mid-90s)?--maybe something was changed? Don't know about that--the frame on mine ('89 built on an Astro chassis) is definitely tubular aluminum--I've seen it on rebuilding the cabover flooring; I saw a pic of this somewhere... I'll see if I can find it. As for the new Tiger CX, here's a quote from the Provan website: "The floor and portions of the walls utilize plywood, upon which is built an aluminum frame and exterior skin" BTW--did you sell yours yet? Thought I saw it up a while back... Hmmm... is it possible that different yrs. for the SR are constructed differently? Yours is identical to mine, right--so you're sure the ply does not supply struc. support? when I replaced the windows, I noticed that the shell was pretty thin--really a skin, maybe 1/4" max. So unless it thickens up above and below, I can see no way a skin that thin would not require struc support of some kind. Guess the only way I can check this is to bull the fininsh paneling and see if the glass really does thicken to match thickness of furred windows... Tom Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tlava Posted April 27, 2012 Author Share Posted April 27, 2012 BTW-- You must be right about the SR const--I looked under rear seats and at least at that level there is no wood framing in the rear corners, where you'd definitely have to have it if depending on it for support? and no plywood along bottom as far as I could see, so I'm guessing it gradually thickens? It was made thinner at windows to accomodate standard window fittings? to save money, weight? I don't know... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
linda s Posted April 27, 2012 Share Posted April 27, 2012 1/4 inch fiberglass is close to what is used on boat hulls. it is very strong as you can see in the picture. No the roof is the same thickness and they were all built with the same fiberglass. Mine is in fact identical to yours. I get on the roof often to scrub it and have no worries. I have replaced all the vents in both of my Sunraders and would feel perfectly safe jump roping except for the fact that I would certainly fall off. Repairng the vents on the Tiger I had to lay flat on the roof and crawl carefully. You can feel it bending. There is a Tiger GT on ebay right now and the top is not attached, no canvas. He has a video to show the damage that shows the top edge of the camper section all the way around. No metal in sight. I still have mine. More work than I expected. Should be for sale in about a month Linda S Hi Linda-- Your Provan is the hard top, right? and I think a bit newer than mine (mid-90s)?--maybe something was changed? Don't know about that--the frame on mine ('89 built on an Astro chassis) is definitely tubular aluminum--I've seen it on rebuilding the cabover flooring; I saw a pic of this somewhere... I'll see if I can find it. As for the new Tiger CX, here's a quote from the Provan website: "The floor and portions of the walls utilize plywood, upon which is built an aluminum frame and exterior skin" BTW--did you sell yours yet? Thought I saw it up a while back... Hmmm... is it possible that different yrs. for the SR are constructed differently? Yours is identical to mine, right--so you're sure the ply does not supply struc. support? when I replaced the windows, I noticed that the shell was pretty thin--really a skin, maybe 1/4" max. So unless it thickens up above and below, I can see no way a skin that thin would not require struc support of some kind. Guess the only way I can check this is to bull the fininsh paneling and see if the glass really does thicken to match thickness of furred windows... Tom Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tlava Posted April 27, 2012 Author Share Posted April 27, 2012 Just got confirmation from the Provan manufacturer: the coach--at least in my '89 Tiger, since that was the only one I inquired about-- has a tubular aluminum frame; no structural wood Hi Linda-- Your Provan is the hard top, right? and I think a bit newer than mine (mid-90s)?--maybe something was changed? Don't know about that--the frame on mine ('89 built on an Astro chassis) is definitely tubular aluminum--I've seen it on rebuilding the cabover flooring; I saw a pic of this somewhere... I'll see if I can find it. As for the new Tiger CX, here's a quote from the Provan website: "The floor and portions of the walls utilize plywood, upon which is built an aluminum frame and exterior skin" BTW--did you sell yours yet? Thought I saw it up a while back... Hmmm... is it possible that different yrs. for the SR are constructed differently? Yours is identical to mine, right--so you're sure the ply does not supply struc. support? when I replaced the windows, I noticed that the shell was pretty thin--really a skin, maybe 1/4" max. So unless it thickens up above and below, I can see no way a skin that thin would not require struc support of some kind. Guess the only way I can check this is to bull the fininsh paneling and see if the glass really does thicken to match thickness of furred windows... Tom Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tlava Posted April 27, 2012 Author Share Posted April 27, 2012 I might be wrong about the 1/4--maybe 1/8? I don't know---it just seemed really thin--you resealed the windows on yours? did you notice the thickness? RE the Provan on Ebay--you wouldn't see any frame support under the top, because it is a popup--original canvas missing. However, if you look closely, in some of the shots you can see the aluminum "sill" that runs along the top edge of the coach body--not the top edge of the roof, though that is aluminmum, as well; that sill is the top aluminim frame member- verticle tubular aluminum studs are welded to this--trust me, the frame is tubular aluminum, at least in mine and almost certainly the one on Ebay; as I say, I've seen it, and confirmed it with the Provan manufacturer. Thanks for the clarification on the SR--that's good to know... 1/4 inch fiberglass is close to what is used on boat hulls. it is very strong as you can see in the picture. No the roof is the same thickness and they were all built with the same fiberglass. Mine is in fact identical to yours. I get on the roof often to scrub it and have no worries. I have replaced all the vents in both of my Sunraders and would feel perfectly safe jump roping except for the fact that I would certainly fall off. Repairng the vents on the Tiger I had to lay flat on the roof and crawl carefully. You can feel it bending. There is a Tiger GT on ebay right now and the top is not attached, no canvas. He has a video to show the damage that shows the top edge of the camper section all the way around. No metal in sight. I still have mine. More work than I expected. Should be for sale in about a month Linda S Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bajadulce Posted April 28, 2012 Share Posted April 28, 2012 The Sunrader's walls are pretty strong at the corners as well as the transitional roof areas by nature. Just like a large sheet of glass tho, the Sunrader's wall is weak towards the middle of the sheet where it will suffer the most flex. And yes, a gutted Sunrader wall is pretty flimsy towards the middle and can wobble quite a bit if you push on it. But as Linda pointed out, it is still plenty strong enough for its intended application. Once all the windows, cabinets, and bench seats are reinstalled, walls sorta magically gain some rigidity. If you ever remodel your interior and find yourself with bare walls, it prob wouldn't hurt to add a single vertical stud somewhere close to the middle to help battle these wobbles (you'd glue/glass the stud to the wall). I think the older Sunraders had a larger passenger side window? So I wasn't able to do this in my own setup, but wished would have ran something from the window sill down to the floor to straighten out the slight concavity in my passenger side exterior wall. Best? Framed (Aluminum tubing) no doubt offers a lot of strength while allowing for a really thin exterior skin. For whatever reason, all the aluminum framed RV's I have seen/read about have used a thick skin made of plywood laminates? Seems to defeat the purpose. Shot/Chopped molded fiberglass such as used with the Sunrader/Chinook etc, while really strong, extremely durable, and easy to produce, is a bit heavy and a tad outdated. Those fancy Earthroamers still use this same shot mold technique, but composite foam core panel construction (Nida core etc) seems to outshine all other techniques and you will probably see more manufacturers using this type of construction as standard practice. The bottom line is as long as the camper is water tight, the wall's composition shouldn't be an issue if it does what it needs to. From what I've seen/read, most RV's have poor roof-to-wall or wall-to-wall seams. Or holes drilled into the roof for luggage racks, AC units, ladders, vents, etc. And so water damaged RV's are a common theme. And while even an aluminum framed RV that gets soaked will still need the walls torn apart, at least the framing will be reusable and new walls can be scabbed back in fairly easily. The roof in my project happens to be "wood framed" with some 1x's, but am not too concerned about them rotting. No water will ever get to them. My floor is a bit different as it stands alone without a truck frame. So a honeycomb frame made of redwood 1x's joists were used in this area instead as it is somewhat exposed (for now). Fiberglass tubing probably would have been a better choice. The floor is of course shielded from road debris/water by the flatbed deck, but it still is exposed to moisture especially when it sits close to the ground. Luckily I can paint, dry out, and maintain the underside easily when the shell is off the truck. The Sunrader floor is notoriously weak because of the large distances (lack of floor joists) the composite structure must span. When the composites are all held nicely together, things are dandy and the floor is in essence over an 1-1/2" thick, but when the laminates separate (unglue), you now have individual materials spanning huge distances. 1/2 plywood doesn't do well spanning 3 feet! Adding some additional wood atop the floor is a simple solution and will do the trick more than adequately. Obviously if you have a gutted rig, it would be wise to cut out the floor and add some joists. @ Women living longer than men: Ya, no doubt women are without debate much smarter than us buffoons. I always feel so much better when boarding a plane to discover the pilot is a woman! Just hope she doesn't text her friends about how cute the male flight attendant's butt is while flying! To be fair, that picture doesn't do the scaffolding justice. That extension ladder is for instance resting on the camper's floor and wedged against the driver's side interior wall. That extra 3' boost sure makes a difference on that flimsy ladder btw! Also the scaffolding has some posts/braces running down to the floor and is actually a lot wider than it looks and liberally screwed together (that sounds odd << ) as well as screwed to the rear fiberglass roof section if I remember. The 8' step ladder is resting against a rib screwed to the scaffolding. Ladders are scary tho that's no kidding and ya lots of men/women in construction get hurt/die while using a ladder. One of the most dangerous tools on the job to be sure. EDIT: ^^ Wow mini novel. I didn't write all of this reply btw.. some gnome got on my computer and typed that short story of a reply while I was in the bathroom. Honest. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tlava Posted April 28, 2012 Author Share Posted April 28, 2012 not sure about "liberally screwed," or US SS persuasions, but if you're liberal, you might feel screwed... In any case, I thought about running a couple 4' lengths of treated 2 X4's, with perhaps a cross member or two between, underneath the RV, bracketing this assembly at the front to the rear cab metal (plenty of room there)--using SS bolts and screws--and notching them out in back to snug above the rear frame joist (there is, I think, about 1 1/2" height available there); I'd jack this assembly up a hair to make sure the bracketing snugs it up against the floor. So this is my handy-man solution to bracing the floor. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
linda s Posted April 28, 2012 Share Posted April 28, 2012 I redid my floor on the Nissan but used pretty thin plywood because I didn't want to give up interior height. Realized it wasn't enough support after my very big neighbor went in to look at my remodel. Added more support underneath then by installing lightweight C channel used for installing garage shelves I bought at Ace hardware. Just 2 bars across underneath the bathroom, kitchen area and my floor no longer flexes when walked on. Linda S Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tlava Posted April 28, 2012 Author Share Posted April 28, 2012 How did you install that? did you bolt or bracket it to the cab wall that protrudes underneath? and the cross memeber at the rear? Oh--actually I guess you mean you ran it side to side, rather than back to front? in any case, how/what did you attach it to? I redid my floor on the Nissan but used pretty thin plywood because I didn't want to give up interior height. Realized it wasn't enough support after my very big neighbor went in to look at my remodel. Added more support underneath then by installing lightweight C channel used for installing garage shelves I bought at Ace hardware. Just 2 bars across underneath the bathroom, kitchen area and my floor no longer flexes when walked on. Linda S Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
linda s Posted April 29, 2012 Share Posted April 29, 2012 There's some wood framing down there on each side. If I had known I was going to do it I would have put bolts from the new floor to it too so I could have attached it all along the bar but it was an after thought. Seems to be holding very well though and sometime when I get around to it I will do my Toyota Sunrader too. I'm never selling either so I just kind of fiddle around with them. No urgency at all. Just get under there and look. One goes on right behind bathroom and the other about a foot behind that. Floor is very solid. Linda Oh it's just screwed into the wood down there. Fairly long screw. Sorry don't remember what size How did you install that? did you bolt or bracket it to the cab wall that protrudes underneath? and the cross memeber at the rear? Oh--actually I guess you mean you ran it side to side, rather than back to front? in any case, how/what did you attach it to? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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