defrag4 Posted August 22, 2016 Share Posted August 22, 2016 (edited) Hey guys, My rear diff is howling like crazy, i assume from a botched pinion seal job. Guy "helping" me replace the pinion seal, ended up jack hammering the pinion nut back on there with an air wrench... I have a 92 Itasca w the 3VZE. It was fine for about ~1500 miles but now it sounds like a jetliner taking off everytime I get over 5mph, increasingly steadily the faster I go. I checked out the tires, driveshaft, and wheel bearings. All looks good. The only thing left in the equation is the diff. Ideally I would take it apart and bring the center-section to a shop and have them rebuild it with new gears and whatever else is shot in there, but I am currently on the road and looking for a quick fix. I found a local guy selling a 4.56 center section out of 95 4Runner 4x4. Guy claims they ran just fine when they pulled it off of the truck, dont they all? Aside from the visual check for any pitting/scarring on the ring/pinion, is there anything else I can check on the diff before dropping $400 on this thing? Or do I just cross my fingers and hope for the best? Also, any other caveats I should know about when swapping in a center-section? From what I am reading it is pretty plug and play. Pull the axles, pull the diff, slide the new one in, bolt it all back together. I do know my speedo will be off a bit (coming from 4.3 gears) Thanks! Edited August 22, 2016 by defrag4 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zero Posted August 22, 2016 Share Posted August 22, 2016 For $400, I'd grab it. Kind of a rare find. That assuming you don't see any scorch marks are wear on the gears and the actual wear pattern looks like it should. If the pinion shaft if not jiggling back and forth horribly and all turns smoothly, chances are all is fine. I have seen MANY ring & pinions get ruined by jerks with air-guns on pinion nuts during "routine" seal changes. Now if it was an older 70s Toyota, ruining it with an air-gun would not have been possible since they used shim-packs instead of a crush-collar. Again, I think such a find that requires no shipping for $400 is a bargain. New gears and someones skill and labor would cost a lot more. NOT an easy job to set up new gears. You can correct the speedometer later with a special-made adapter gearbox for around $80. I have a new one sitting here on my shelf I have not installed yet. Install of the Hotchkiss center-section is pretty straight-forward, just as you said. Drain the oil, pull both axles, disconnect driveshaft, remove nuts on the center-section, and remove. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zero Posted August 22, 2016 Share Posted August 22, 2016 By the way - if you catch it in time it is likely your stock ring & pinion gears are fine and that awful howing is just half-melted pinion bearings. So, with some luck - all you need is new bearings and a new crush collar. Plus somebody with at least a 12 ton press. If your OEM gears do not look scorched - I'd just pop new bearings in. It is likely no "setup" will be needed. Just press the old bearings off the pinion, make sure you keep the original shim pack, and press the new bearings on. Then - this time - when it comes to tightening the pinion nut - do it until you reach zero end-play and then put just a hair of preload on it. Better yet - use a spring-scale and measure turning torque if you want to be precise. Sounds like your bearings are over-tight and near melted. If you change before they blow apart - it should not affect the ring & pinion at all. Problem is - you'd have to find someone with a press who knows how to get the bearings off and back on without damage. That requires a split-press-collar and likely a homemade driver for the bearings. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
defrag4 Posted August 22, 2016 Author Share Posted August 22, 2016 (edited) thanks JDemaris, that is exactly what I am afraid of, local shop mucking up the gear set and me being hundreds of miles down the road when it grenades. To replace those pinion bearings we would have to pull the differential anyway, correct? If I go through that much trouble I might as well upgrade to 4.56, I hear it is a great upgrade. Edited August 22, 2016 by defrag4 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
defrag4 Posted August 22, 2016 Author Share Posted August 22, 2016 (edited) The way I am figuring it, assuming this diff costs $400, like you said, it will be way less than buying a new set of gears, bearings, getting someone to set them up, and hoping like hell they do it right. Worse case scenario, My wallet is $400 lighter and I end up with two diffs, pick the best one to take to the repair shop anyway, Edited August 22, 2016 by defrag4 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zero Posted August 22, 2016 Share Posted August 22, 2016 Looks like a great deal to me. Wear pattern on those gears look perfect and if that is an OEM setup, the OEM gears are the best of the best. That "free shipping" clinches the deal. I'd almost be interested in buying to have on hand - but don't worry. I am not that mean. I suggest you hit the "buy it now" option and get it before someone else does. Especially seeing how it is a 4-pinion rear instead of a 2-pinion. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
defrag4 Posted August 22, 2016 Author Share Posted August 22, 2016 Thanks, I removed the link, sent the guy a message, hopefully go pick it up tomorrow if he replies Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zero Posted August 22, 2016 Share Posted August 22, 2016 Gee. If you are picking it up -the seller is likely saving $75 in shipping. Maybe he can take a few bucks off? I did not know that forum users had the ability to remove anything once posted (but cannot say I ever tried). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
defrag4 Posted August 22, 2016 Author Share Posted August 22, 2016 agreed, thats why I hit him up on messenger before buying it out right. Hopefully being a cheap-skate doesnt bite me in the arse! If you hit the EDIT button underneath one of your posts you can change whatever you like. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Derek up North Posted August 22, 2016 Share Posted August 22, 2016 1 hour ago, defrag4 said: I do know my speedo will be off a bit (coming from 4.3 gears) Off by ~5%, so 2.5mph @ 50mph. Why bother! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zero Posted August 23, 2016 Share Posted August 23, 2016 I agree if you are sure you already had a 4.3 to 1 rear. More of a leap for most that change from a 4.1 to 1. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
defrag4 Posted August 23, 2016 Author Share Posted August 23, 2016 (edited) Made it to Bozeman last night, talked to the eBay guy, offered $300 and I'll pick it up, done deal. borrrowing my friends truck to go pick it up here in a few hours. to remove the 3rd member, I need to drain it, disconnect the driveshaft, pull the tires, unbolt the axle bolts on the back of the wheel hub, and then the Axle should slide out, unbolt all the bolts off the diff cover, and then pull it out I think I need to disconnect the sway bar and a few other bits like the LPSV as well Edited August 23, 2016 by defrag4 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zero Posted August 23, 2016 Share Posted August 23, 2016 I never heard it called a "third member" before. Must be a regional term. What makes it 3rd? Better put, what is 1st and 2nd? In the areas where I worked as a mechanic - any rear-axle-assembly with a removable differential unit was usually called a "Hotchkiss" and any that did not have a removable unit was called a "Salisbury." Note that after you unbolt the axles by removing the nuts - they will NOT just slide out. There are tapered lock-rings on each stud and can get pretty stuck. To be technical, even with the nuts off, the more you pry on them, the tighter they get. I usually heat them a little and then tap on the axle flange to make it vibrate and let the harmonics shake them loose. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Back East Don Posted August 23, 2016 Share Posted August 23, 2016 A stab in the dark but would it be a power train order? Engine, transmission then differential as the drive shaft is passive? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
defrag4 Posted August 23, 2016 Author Share Posted August 23, 2016 (edited) Seems to change all over the country, 3rd member, pumpkin, chunk, center-section, pig, etc etc Looks like the cone washer and hub also need to come off? Jdemaris, I found another one of your posts with some good part number info, Ill be picking up a new innner/outer seal, some grease for the wheel bearings, do you happen to have the part number for the small rear brake cylinder, not sure what it is called? Anything else I should replace while I have it torn apart? Rear inner seal (also used in front): NATIONAL # 226285 2.44” shaft size, OD – 3.35”, width - .315”, nitrile. Other #s - SKF 24635, Beck/Arnley # 0522680, Toyota # 2117203, 2117971, 9031162001, 9031162147, NAPA # NOS24635, Timken # 226285 Rear outer seal NATIONAL #710076, 1.35” shaft size, OD – 1.62”, width - .355”, nitrile. Also SKF # OS13911, TIMKEN # 710076 and Toyota # 9031035001, NAPA # NOS13911 Edited August 23, 2016 by defrag4 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zero Posted August 23, 2016 Share Posted August 23, 2016 Probably the easiest place to get new wheel cylinders is through NAPA. Part # ATMP9466 $14 each. I get mine from Rock Auto cheaper - but that means a wait for stuff to come in the mail. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
defrag4 Posted August 23, 2016 Author Share Posted August 23, 2016 thanks again! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zero Posted August 23, 2016 Share Posted August 23, 2016 53 minutes ago, Back East Don said: A stab in the dark but would it be a power train order? Engine, transmission then differential as the drive shaft is passive? That is the most sensible guess I've heard. I saw one person claim it is "axle", "axle" and "center-section" and that makes no sense to me. What about the rear-axle-housing? Seems most any car has three essential items to make it go. Engine, trans, and rear (assuming it is rear-wheel drive). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
defrag4 Posted August 23, 2016 Author Share Posted August 23, 2016 (edited) Got new axle seals, inner/outer, new wheel cylinders, new drum pads, drum hardware kit, and a bunch of grease ordered anything else while I got her tore up? Edited August 23, 2016 by defrag4 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zero Posted August 23, 2016 Share Posted August 23, 2016 I suggest you make sure you've got a hammer-impact screwdriver like Harbor Freight sells for $5 - $10. I don't know what it is with the Japanese using Philips head screws that are hard to remove without stripping. Not just Toyota dually rear-axles. Many places on motorcycle engines too. I know that on the last two Toyota FF rears I had apart - those screw heads on the bearing lock-plates wanted to strip until I used a hammer-impact on them. Then they came out fine. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
defrag4 Posted August 23, 2016 Author Share Posted August 23, 2016 (edited) thanks, got a impact driver on hand So I jacked the rear up and had the wife sit in the front seat while I idled in D, I sat under the truck (Safe.. I know) and listened. It sounds like the whirring is most prominent in the rear-driveshaft, the 2nd part that is behind the carrier-bearing... about mid-way down that shaft its really howling. further foward or back is much quieter. I guess it could be the sound of the diff resonating up through the DS. There is no way to lube these driveshafts is there? I recall doing it on my 4x4 4Runner Edited August 23, 2016 by defrag4 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
defrag4 Posted August 23, 2016 Author Share Posted August 23, 2016 pulled the driveshaft, turning the pinion by hand its super notchy and grindy. Survey says bad bearings. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
defrag4 Posted August 23, 2016 Author Share Posted August 23, 2016 Headed to pick up the 4.56! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
defrag4 Posted August 23, 2016 Author Share Posted August 23, 2016 (edited) diff acquired! Spins smooth, no pitting or scarring, no rust, 41 teeth on ring, 9 on pinion $300 Edited August 23, 2016 by defrag4 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zero Posted August 23, 2016 Share Posted August 23, 2016 Looks like a great deal. I'd buy one in a flash for that price if it was close enough to pick up. I can see that the wear-pattern looks pretty much perfect that makes me think it is an OEM setup and not aftermarket. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
loghausmotors Posted August 23, 2016 Share Posted August 23, 2016 You don't even have to pull the wheels and drums off , you only have to pull the axles out. The cone washers are split and your best bet is a small cold chisel in the split to rotate them loose. the axle flange has a paper gasket , if you destroy it you can use RTV. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
defrag4 Posted August 24, 2016 Author Share Posted August 24, 2016 getting hung up on the damn cone washers and the 4 17mm nuts on the back of the hub, soaking everything in penetration oil and going to pick up a bigger brass drift/hammer in the AM for the cone washers, and get a cheater bar for my 17mm wrench, seem to only be able to get the open end of a wrench on those bolts Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WME Posted August 24, 2016 Share Posted August 24, 2016 (edited) I just use BFH and a deep socket over the cone washers. A sharp blow and they pop right out. Hit the axle end not the washer. How ever you do it leave the nut on the stud or the washer may launch its self into orbit. Edited August 24, 2016 by WME Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
defrag4 Posted August 24, 2016 Author Share Posted August 24, 2016 BFH has defeated the cone washers! on to the next step, how in the hell do I unbolt the axle here? It seems like a 17mm but its so close to the axle housing I cant get a socket or even a closed wrench on it, open end of box wrench 1/2 way fits on but starts to strip if I put any real torque on it These bolts do have to come off, correct? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
defrag4 Posted August 24, 2016 Author Share Posted August 24, 2016 yahtzee! didnt have to take those rear bolts off after all Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
defrag4 Posted August 24, 2016 Author Share Posted August 24, 2016 Alright, got the hub face off and the 2 keeper screws off, good tip on the impact driver! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
defrag4 Posted August 24, 2016 Author Share Posted August 24, 2016 OK! Unscrewed that keeper plate and pulled the hub and drum off, front bearings fell out into my lap along with a bunch of gear oil. The bearings look good, definelty not lubed by grease, they are washed in gear oil Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
defrag4 Posted August 24, 2016 Author Share Posted August 24, 2016 I did not see a single seal so far, a bit of a paper seal remained between the hub and hub cover but thats about it. Where are the seals supposed to go? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
defrag4 Posted August 24, 2016 Author Share Posted August 24, 2016 Drum brakes are a mystery to me... everything seems to be in order? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
defrag4 Posted August 24, 2016 Author Share Posted August 24, 2016 ah upon closer inspection I do see the seals, the one little one inside the lip at the tip of the axle shaft is still there and intact and the one on the back of the hub is there as well. Both look perfectly fine, not sure why there was so much oil in here? Guess I should pull them and replace? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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