escapist Posted January 18, 2015 Share Posted January 18, 2015 Hey there, just noticed oil leaking from my passenger side rear axle. Looks like there is a gasket in the outer cap but on the diagram there is a seal on the inside. Is it actually the inside seal causing the leak? If so the bearings and the break drum are subject to contamination, correct? Or does the diff fluid flow through to the end of the axle? Thanks so much for any advice! I know this has probably been covered but I couldn't find it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zero Posted January 18, 2015 Share Posted January 18, 2015 Hey there, just noticed oil leaking from my passenger side rear axle. Looks like there is a gasket in the outer cap but on the diagram there is a seal on the inside. Is it actually the inside seal causing the leak? If so the bearings and the break drum are subject to contamination, correct? Or does the diff fluid flow through to the end of the axle? Thanks so much for any advice! I know this has probably been covered but I couldn't find it. On each end there are two seals and a gasket (if gasket was used). The tiny little seal that rides on outward end the axle itself does not cause oil to get into the brakes. In fact, I've seen it totally omitted and all worked fine. It blocks gear oil coming from the center (Hotchkiss) center-section reservoir from getting into the wheel/hub bearings. Most other types of full-floaters use no seal there and let the bearings get oil-lubed. The 2nd much bigger seal that all full-floaters have, regardless of make, rotates with the hub assembly and if IT leaks, oil can get into the brakes, drip on the ground, etc. When new the end of the axle flange has a thin round paper gasket. If it leaks, it just seeps outside and gets on the wheel, tire, etc. Room Temperature Vulcanizing sealant does the job as well, or better than a gasket, (RTV sealant). In fact, many companies now sell it over-the-counter in place of where gaskets were once used. Make sure that you're seeing is gear oil and not brake fluid. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zero Posted January 18, 2015 Share Posted January 18, 2015 Some part numbers: Toyota dually full-floating rear: Rear inner seal (also used in front): NATIONAL # 226285 2.44” shaft size, OD – 3.35”, width - .315”, nitrile. Other #s - SKF 24635, Beck/Arnley # 0522680, Toyota # 2117203, 2117971, 9031162001, 9031162147, NAPA # NOS24635, Timken # 226285 Rear outer seal NATIONAL #710076, 1.35” shaft size, OD – 1.62”, width - .355”, nitrile. Also SKF # OS13911, TIMKEN # 710076 and Toyota # 9031035001, NAPA # NOS13911 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
linda s Posted January 18, 2015 Share Posted January 18, 2015 While I'm sure that outer seal must be important on a full floater that greases the bearings with differential fluid, on the Toyota and Nissan full floaters it doesn't seem to be that important. The Toyota factory repair manual shows the outer gasket but doesn't even mention it in the description of reassembling the rear axle. http://personal.utulsa.edu/~nathan-buchanan/93fsm/suspensionandaxle/34reara.pdf My Nissan has no outer gasket and there is no mention in my service manual of using any sealant in that area at all. I replaced my inner seals on my Nissan axles 3 or 4 years ago and used no sealant where the axle face hits the hub and it doesn't leak at all Seems to me the inner oil seal is the important one to replace. Linda S Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zero Posted January 18, 2015 Share Posted January 18, 2015 My Nissan has no outer gasket and there is no mention in my service manual of using any sealant in that area at all. I replaced my inner seals on my Nissan axles 3 or 4 years ago and used no sealant where the axle face hits the hub and it doesn't leak at all Seems to me the inner oil seal is the important one to replace. Linda S If the small seal (on the end of axle by the flange) is sealing well - no gear oil can escape regardless if a gasket is used or not. What CAN happen if no sort of sealant is used is water intrusion into the wheel bearings. Any mechanic with a lick of sense would seal that flange-end with something. Otherwise every time it rains or you drive through a puddle - water can get into the wheel-bearings. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
linda s Posted January 18, 2015 Share Posted January 18, 2015 Yup I'm not a mechanic. Just followed the factory recommendations for all the work. How foolish of them to leave it out completely Linda S Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zero Posted January 18, 2015 Share Posted January 18, 2015 Yup I'm not a mechanic. Just followed the factory recommendations for all the work. How foolish of them to leave it out completely Linda S I don't know what factory specs you are referring too and what specific rear axle? A Nissan H233? A H260? Like in this 1984 Nissan diagram (that shows a gasket)? Common sense should dictate that nothing that gets exposed to the outside environment and has bearings can be left in such a way that water can get in. A paper gasket, sealant, something ! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
linda s Posted January 18, 2015 Share Posted January 18, 2015 I see the exterior plate on the axle and the shaft are separate parts and the gasket goes between them. Mine is H233b but axle and outer plate are 1 piece like the Toyota axle shaft Linda S Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
escapist Posted January 18, 2015 Author Share Posted January 18, 2015 Wow! Thanks for all the knowledge! So if I understand this, it's possible for the oil to leak out of the end regardless of the inner seal. If I take it off to repair is oil going start shooting out? I'm not a mechanic so sorry if these are stupid questions. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zero Posted January 18, 2015 Share Posted January 18, 2015 If your RV is parked on level ground and the rear-end is properly filled - near nothing will come out when you pull the axle. If you want to play it safe, drive the side you want to pull apart first over a couple of boards so it sits a little higher then the other side. The tapered-split cones on the studs can be a pain to get loose after you get the nuts off. Takes some patience. I use heat on them when stubborn. The paper gasket is still available from Toyota IF you want it. Red RTV sealant works just as well. Just about all the parts for that rear axle are available. Toyota used it in Japan on the 26 seater Coaster bus from 1977 to 1982. Then later on RVs in the USA. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
linda s Posted January 19, 2015 Share Posted January 19, 2015 Wow! Thanks for all the knowledge! So if I understand this, it's possible for the oil to leak out of the end regardless of the inner seal. If I take it off to repair is oil going start shooting out? I'm not a mechanic so sorry if these are stupid questions. No if the inner seal is good no oil will leak out the end. Linda S Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
escapist Posted January 20, 2015 Author Share Posted January 20, 2015 Forgive me, but are you saying you can pull the axle with the wheels still on? And should there be oil coming up to that paper gasket? I got a little gun shy when i took the nuts off, sarted thinking(don't do that much) maybe I need to know a bit more, those cone washers really are on there good! Thanks again, really learning a lot! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
escapist Posted January 20, 2015 Author Share Posted January 20, 2015 Oops missed that last one, ok so the inner seal must be bad. I need to drive 200 miles before I can really fix it, think it's a safety hazard? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zero Posted January 20, 2015 Share Posted January 20, 2015 Forgive me, but are you saying you can pull the axle with the wheels still on? And should there be oil coming up to that paper gasket? I got a little gun shy when i took the nuts off, sarted thinking(don't do that much) maybe I need to know a bit more, those cone washers really are on there good! Thanks again, really learning a lot! The axles bear no weight so you can yank them out with the wheels still on the RV. Those tapered cones are split and when tightened - they clamp tight onto the studs. When you take the nuts off - they will want to stay "clamped" until you shock them loose. Especially if a little rusty. Try using a punch and a little heat. Or a dull chisel hitting them sideways. Once the nuts and cones are off - the axle-flange end will still be stuck because of locating pins and the stuck gasket or sealant. There are holes in the end of axle that are threaded. You can thread bolts into those holes and use them to pop the flange loose (as I recall). Been a few months since I've done one. My axles had those pusher holes. I can't say all have them. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zero Posted January 20, 2015 Share Posted January 20, 2015 Some photos showing how to use the two pusher bolts. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
escapist Posted January 20, 2015 Author Share Posted January 20, 2015 Very cool, but to replace the the inner seal I'll need to disassemble the whole assembly along with the wheels, right? I have the pusher holes, happy about that, and its been covered in oil so hopefully not much corrosion to deal with. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
linda s Posted January 20, 2015 Share Posted January 20, 2015 Just make sure you have enough fluid in your differential and brake carefully. Your front brakes will still be working fine Linda S Pulling your axle out with 2 heavy wheels on each side attached to it doesn't make much sense. Easier to remove the wheels first Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sunnynshare Posted January 21, 2015 Share Posted January 21, 2015 My approach to the split washers. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ePjqBuJ_a5k Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zero Posted January 21, 2015 Share Posted January 21, 2015 My approach to the split washers. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ePjqBuJ_a5k I reluctantly watched your video. I say "reluctant" because we're having trouble here with three computers staying below our 15 GB per month download limit. So usually, NO videos here. A few comments. I suspect it's the vibration that worked for you. Not the PB Blaster. For myself, I've found PB Blaster to be pretty useless. I'd say the same for WD40 except WD40 was never designed to be a "rust breaker." The "WD" stands for "water displacement." It was made for the US military to displace water and is the "40th" version. Works good for that or as a fine oil. Not for rust. I see you've got one new bolt and one old bolt as "pushers." I should of mentioned that if using an old Toyota bolt - it might break if it's a grade 8.8. I suggest using 10.9 grade bolts if you can find them if the flange is really stuck. Toyota uses a lot of cheap, weak bolts in their trucks and I've broken many without hardly trying. Since you're taking the whole thing apart - I suggest you consider all new wheel cylinders, brake linings, hold down kit, etc. That is unless all looks perfect. Now is the time to do that and the parts are dirt-cheap if you buy carefully. One possible issue. I've found that many "small parts" or "hardware" kits for the Toyota full-floaters come with the incorrect pins (too short). So check carefully. A complete new set of shoes is only $16 and new wheel cylinders are $6 each. A cheap investment. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Derek up North Posted January 21, 2015 Share Posted January 21, 2015 For myself, I've found PB Blaster to be pretty useless. Since I discovered PB Blaster, I've found it works very well OR I've become very lucky with rusty fasteners. What's your 'weapon' of choice (other than the 'hot' wrench)? I do agree with your opinion on WD40. Excellent marketing. To me, an indication the WD40 isn't the best possible penetrating oil is their recent introduction of a specific 'Rust Release' product. I've never tried it. http://wd40specialist.com/products/penetrating-oil/ I've read good things about Kroil but I've never seen it for sale anywhere I've been. I've also never tried Seafoam Deep Creep. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zero Posted January 21, 2015 Share Posted January 21, 2015 Since I discovered PB Blaster, I've found it works very well OR I've become very lucky with rusty fasteners. What's your 'weapon' of choice (other than the 'hot' wrench)? When I have stuck ferrous-metal parts - I use a torch. I've done a few low-tech tests on rusty bolts and nuts. Although spraying something rusty with something like PB Blaster makes me feel good - the reality is - I've noticed NO difference in success in getting part stuck rusted parts. With something threaded that is not stuck but turns hard? Yes, PB Blaster works. So does waste-oil mixed with kerosene or diesel fuel. Back when I was a shop foreman for a diesel and heavy-equipment place - we bought "Panther Piss" by the gallons. Sorry for the non-tech name but that was in the 70s and I can't remember what the real brand name was. I know it was NOT PB Blaster. Everyone in the shop just called it "Panther Piss." Whatever is was, I did not find it to work well then either- not with rusted stuck fasteners. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zero Posted January 21, 2015 Share Posted January 21, 2015 My approach to the split washers. You might find that getting the Philips-head screws loose on the nut lock-plate is difficult. They are soft and strip easy. I find them infuriating. Off all places to use a cheap soft screw with a lousy drive - head ?? Do yourself a favor and use a hammer-impact Philips-screw driver. Makes the job MUCH easier and won't strip the screw-heads. It might be the best $8 you ever spent. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
escapist Posted January 24, 2015 Author Share Posted January 24, 2015 Just got to a spot to work on this, so will I need to disassemble the brake drum and everything to replace the inner seal right? I'm a little nervous to deal with the brakes 'cause I have no experience. I'm currently on a trip and want to do as little as possible, but obviously if I need to take it all apart I'll do what ever it needs. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
linda s Posted January 25, 2015 Share Posted January 25, 2015 Just got to a spot to work on this, so will I need to disassemble the brake drum and everything to replace the inner seal right? I'm a little nervous to deal with the brakes 'cause I have no experience. I'm currently on a trip and want to do as little as possible, but obviously if I need to take it all apart I'll do what ever it needs. No brakes don't need to come apart. Pull axle, remove hub and you will see the seal in the hole where the axle was. replace it and oil it a little with differential fluid before you reinstall hub and then axle. At least thoroughly check the brakes as long as it's open so you can see them. Repack bearings too while you're in there. Outside bearings will fall out easily but inside need to be pressed out. Maybe take the whole hub to an auto shop for repacking. Linda Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
escapist Posted January 25, 2015 Author Share Posted January 25, 2015 Great! Thanks again! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vanman Posted January 25, 2015 Share Posted January 25, 2015 Years and years working on the Japanese motorcycles is to use the Impact only once, to remove the phillips head screws then replace with quality allen head screws. No problems after that. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zero Posted January 25, 2015 Share Posted January 25, 2015 Outside bearings will fall out easily but inside need to be pressed out. Maybe take the whole hub to an auto shop for repacking. Linda To clarify - none of the bearing cones have to be pressed out. One is kept from falling out just by the oil-seal being replaced. That pries out easily with a pry-bar, screw-driver, lady-slipper, etc. Both the bearing cups (races) ARE a press-fit. No need to remove them unless they are worn or galled. Just leave them in place if just repacking bearings and putting in new seals. If you DID have to remove them - they come out with a hammer and a punch. Or - if an arc-welder is handy - you can just run a bead of weld around the race and it will shrink and fall out. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zero Posted January 25, 2015 Share Posted January 25, 2015 Some photos of the seals. Also some generic photos on how the inside bearing and seal is removed by prying out the seal with a screwdriver. Also in regard to bearing packing. I don't want to sound silly saying this but just in case you haven't done this before. You can pack a bearing-cone in your hand, with no tools and do just as good a job as using a professional bearing-packing machine. Just means you get your hands greasy (unless you wear gloves). Probably the most important part of the job is to get those bearings adjusted correctly when done. Too much preload will burn them out. One of the "generic" photos show someone using a seal-hook instead of screwdriver. No need to buy one. A big screwdriver works fine. There's another way to remove that inside seal and bearing-cone that requires no tool but I'm trying not to make this sound overly complicated. Somebody with a lot of experience and in a hurry might do this. Remove the axle. Remove the lock-plate. Remove the adjuster-nut. Pull of hub part-way until outside bearing cone falls out. Push hub back on and then thread adjuster-nut back on partially. Then pull on the hub again and the adjuster-nut will hit the inside bearing cone and that cone and inside seal will come out as the hub/drum assembly is pulled off. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
escapist Posted February 20, 2015 Author Share Posted February 20, 2015 Well finally got around to doing this, all went well until i reached the two bearing set screws. They seem to be held in place with a ton of retaining compound or Thor himself tightened them down, either way I've tried heat and impact with no luck. Why would these be on there so tightly? The split washers were a breeze, didn't use any special method whatsoever, funny. Any other tricks, I've already started stripping the screws using the right size driver. Suns going down with just enough time to put it back together and start all over tomorrow. Thanks again. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
escapist Posted February 20, 2015 Author Share Posted February 20, 2015 Okay guess I just needed to be a big baby for a minute, got it done but it seems like there is a tight spot, though there is no visible wear on the bearings, races etc. Repacked the bearings and replaced seals, everything looked good, sounds like one of the brake shoes is the culprit, I don't know? The seal near the outer bearing not the inner was definitely worn causing the gear oil to leak, but the grease was uncontaminated at the inner bearing. If that makes sense. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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