Mumblix_Grumph Posted March 19, 2013 Share Posted March 19, 2013 Ok, hypothetical question: Your starter is dead. You're by yourself on a dirt road that goes up in both directions, so push starting is out. Could you take a ratchet wrench with a 19mm socket and crank the engine till it starts? I would think that if the engine catches and starts turning, they ratchet action would allow you to quickly pull it off with out it yanking out of your hand. Any thoughts? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fred heath Posted March 19, 2013 Share Posted March 19, 2013 This is a joke....right? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eve "n" Stephen Posted March 19, 2013 Share Posted March 19, 2013 Actually, in a way, if it's a manual transmission, you could start the engine this way. Back around 1985, we were the caretakers for 7 remote retreats owned by well off families. It was 10 miles to the nearest neighbor and we were 2000 feet down in a canyon. It was the end of the season, and snow was due anytime. We had a camper built on a 1947 1 1/2 ton truck, parked in front of our cabin and the battery was dead. No one was likely to come out anytime soon, possibly until spring. Now the driveway sloped up about 10' in 50' behind the truck, how do you back it up to "pop" start it? I tried a 2x4 lever on the wheel, NO, a jack at an angle, NO and finally tightened the fan belt really tight, put on heavy gloves, put the truck in reverse, and started turning the fan. It took about 2 hours to back it up far enough. Luckily it started first try and we managed to get to our wintering place! You couldn't turn the fan that way anymore, but you could use a wrench on the flywheel to do the same thing, if you were desparate like we were! Steve Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
waiter Posted March 19, 2013 Share Posted March 19, 2013 Mumblix; theoretically speaking, yesOn very rare occasions I have "propped" an airplane engine. On my plane, I have mechanical fuel injection but dual electronic ignition. The electronic ignition is similiar to that of an automobile. Below a certain RPM, it does the ignition pulse After Top Dead Center. This prevents the kick back. (FYI - Most airplane piston engines use a mechanical "magneto" and an impulse couple to do this same thing.) After the engine reaches a certain RPM (usually around 100 - 150 RPM) the ignition switches to the normal "Before Top Dead Center" ignition points.SAFETY. - Similar to an airplane engine, there is that "fan" thing to contend with. On Airplanes, "Hand Propping" procedures are taught to all pilots and must be performed in a very specific manner, else that meat chopper does its business on the person trying to start the engine.www.iflyez.com John Mc 88 Dolphin 4 Auto Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Maineah Posted March 19, 2013 Share Posted March 19, 2013 Well if you have ever tried to pull start an 8 HP snow blower @ 10 degrees it would give you some clue about how successful you might be with a 130HP + engine! It would be easier to pack jumper cables with you and use the coach battery to start the engine. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MontanaChinook Posted March 19, 2013 Share Posted March 19, 2013 Yeah theoretically. You'd be better off pushing it as far up the hill as you could and pop starting it. Even if it was only a couple feet that you could push it. Or...putting the back up on the jack, and trying to spin the wheels?? Still a little dangerous... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Derek up North Posted March 19, 2013 Share Posted March 19, 2013 Assuming you've got a manual transmission, if you've the least worry about your battery, always park at the top of the hill! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zero Posted March 19, 2013 Share Posted March 19, 2013 Ok, hypothetical question: Your starter is dead. You're by yourself on a dirt road that goes up in both directions, so push starting is out. Could you take a ratchet wrench with a 19mm socket and crank the engine till it starts? I would think that if the engine catches and starts turning, they ratchet action would allow you to quickly pull it off with out it yanking out of your hand. Any thoughts? The answer is "maybe" under certain conditions. To start a modern engine when cold, 60 RPM is usually the minimum speed. When hot, a little less. Keep in mind that a four-stroke-cycle engine like your Toyota has would need to be turned at least one full turn, and probably quite a few more at 1 full revolution per second to start. If, when you last shut the engine down it landed at the end of the exhaust stroke, it's possible a 1/2 turn MIGHT let it start if the engine was warm. I can't think of any good way to hand-crank a Toyota at the engine enough to make full revolutions with a hand-wrench at speed of one turn per second. An engine (internal combustion) needs ignition, compression, and fuel in order to start. A gas engine needs fuel and spark at the correct time, as separate entities, whereas a diesel uses compressed fuel and air to self-ignite. Some older gasoline engines easily start with a slow crank or two. In fact some will start with NO cranking under certain conditions - e.g. my 1918 Ford. With my Model T, if I shut the engine off hot and it happens to be stop in the correct position - it will often restart just by turning the ignition on. Two of my old farm tractors are also crank start. In fact, my 1936 John Deere has a "steering wheel" option for starting. The steering wheel comes off and you stick it into the flywheel and turn a little - and it starts. The main problem with a Toyota is this. The compression ratio is up around 9 to 1 and it is designed for that level of compression. The older crank-start engines were often half that or less, i.e. made to run with a 4 to 1, or 5 to 1 compression ratio. Low compression makes cranking much easier and . . due to the low pressure, it stays up longer. A high compression modern engine leaks off fast and thus requires to be turned faster to be started. Most modern engines crank at a minimum 200 RPM. Hand cranking is usually a speed more like 60 RPM at best. A Toyota with a carb and breaker-points will start at a speed less then 60 RPM if hot and was just shut off a few minutes before. A later engine with a Hall-Effect electronic pickup in the distributor must turn a little faster then the old points ignition to work. An old Toyota with points-ignition can fire a good spark at any speed; even when turning over very slow by hand. And yeah, now someone will complain that my take on this is "too complicated. " But . . so are the engines and systems that make them work. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zero Posted March 19, 2013 Share Posted March 19, 2013 Photo showing how to start the engine with the steering wheel, from my 1936 John Deere owner's manual. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Maineah Posted March 19, 2013 Share Posted March 19, 2013 Any thing old enough to crank start kept Dr's employed fixing broken arms. I had a 1964 Datsun pickup that had a crank in the tool kit yes it would crank start if there was enough battery to fire the coil but it was a little tiny low compression engine. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eve "n" Stephen Posted March 19, 2013 Share Posted March 19, 2013 Back around 1973, I had a 1935 Chev truck that had both a starter and crank. Whenever there were a few people watching I'd crank start it. 2 pumps on the gas pedal, pull out the choke and throttle step around front and insert the crank so it was positioned near the top. Put palm on crank but not thumb around it, just in case. 1/4 turn and it would always start! It started easier than most lawnmowers! This was the 206.5 cu. in., first OHV Chev engine, predecessor to the 216 and all of 67 HP. It was always fun to put on a show! Steve Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Derek up North Posted March 19, 2013 Share Posted March 19, 2013 I'm not sure which was the last production vehicle with a hand crank, but it could well be the Land rover Series 3 or Renault R4. An outside chance it cold be Indian produced 'continuations' of the Morris Oxford. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mumblix_Grumph Posted March 20, 2013 Author Share Posted March 20, 2013 Thanks for the replies. I was just thinking of this when I was turning a 20r engine's cracnkshaft pulley at the junkyard with my breaker bar. I just wondered if I could start the engine like that, but use a ratchet instead so the running engine wouldn't take the wrench with it. Basically it was just a what-if. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bob C Posted March 21, 2013 Share Posted March 21, 2013 Last time I crank started my old Farmall Super H, I almost broke my arms. And that had all of 38 hp. My grandfather would have kicked my butt if he saw that I didn't have the crank in the proper position to start with. I would not try starting a 100 + hp engine by hand, especially with my hands/arms stuck into a small confined space like an engine compartment. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zero Posted March 21, 2013 Share Posted March 21, 2013 Last time I crank started my old Farmall Super H, I almost broke my arms. And that had all of 38 hp. My grandfather would have kicked my butt if he saw that I didn't have the crank in the proper position to start with. I would not try starting a 100 + hp engine by hand, especially with my hands/arms stuck into a small confined space like an engine compartment. I suspect the compression ratio is more of an issue with cranking then the horsepower or engine size. The IH Farmall H has a bigger engine then any of the Toyota truck four-cylinders but also with a much lower compression ratio. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
unknowing aussie Posted March 22, 2013 Share Posted March 22, 2013 seen many vid's such as Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Maineah Posted March 22, 2013 Share Posted March 22, 2013 seen many vid's such as I are an expert don't try this at home! Good advice about wrapping the strap around your hand! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zero Posted March 22, 2013 Share Posted March 22, 2013 I've started a few sort of like that. With a big flat leather power-belt. Only works though if you own an old tractor with a flat-belt PTO on it to provide the power. Hope that guy doesn't have a locking or "Posi" rear. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheWhovian Posted July 30, 2013 Share Posted July 30, 2013 I'm not sure which was the last production vehicle with a hand crank, but it could well be the Land rover Series 3 or Renault R4. An outside chance it cold be Indian produced 'continuations' of the Morris Oxford. Did some light research, I believe the last production vehicle with a hand crank option was the Russian born 1999 Lada Niva. If anyone cares to know. I tend to spout random facts and information, lol Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheWhovian Posted August 3, 2013 Share Posted August 3, 2013 Maybe I am wrong, either way the Russians take the cake on this one Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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