Timing Chain

[kiwi girl]

Hello everyone and greetings from New Zealand.

A 1986/92 Cormorant Clipper Motor home has come up for sale here. We really like the look of it and were just about to buy when we came across the following article, (Wikipedia), whilst checking to see whether the van has a cam belt or timing chain

We would really like to hear the members views/experience on this....

Toyota swapped the dual row timing chain used in older engines for a single row chain with plastic guides in 1983. This system reduced drag on the engine, but was inherently problematic. Every 80,000 to 140,000 miles, the chain could stretch to the point that the hydraulic-operated chain tensioner can not take up any more slack. When this happens, the timing chain impacts driver's side chain guide, breaking the plastic within a few hundred miles of driving. If the engine continues to be operated after the guide breaks, the chain will stretch rapidly (an unfortunate characteristic of single row chains.) The loose chain causes inaccurate ignition timing which usually results in noticeable rough running. In continued operation, the chain can jump a tooth on the drive sprocket or break entirely, with either case resulting in engine damage from valve-piston collisions.

Also, the stretched chain will slap against the side of the timing cover due to the broken guide, and can wear through the cover and into the coolant passage behind the water pump. This will cause coolant to drain in to the crankcase / oil pan, possibly causing damage to internal engine components such as the bearings, crankshaft, camshaft as well as damage caused by overheating due to the lack of coolant (since it has drained into the engine oil).

I imagine the problem would be avoided easily by getting the chain changed well before it was due?

Any other things we should know about?

Could be interesting driving a left-hand drive vehicle here!

Cheers all

[Derek up North]

As someone with experience driving a RHD vehicle ('90 Mini) over here, your biggest problem will be when trying to overtake. But since you probably won't have enough power to overtake, this shouldn't present too much of a problem.

Welcome to the Forum. I don't have any experience with the 22RE, so I'll let those with more experience answer your timing chain question.

Could you please explain the '86/92' above. And I know I'd like to see photos of a Cormorant Clipper. I know I've never seen any.

[kiwi girl]

Hello Derek - are you in NZ?

We thought the overtaking could present a bit of a problem - maybe a rear view camera would work?

Bit scary given the driving habits of some NZ'ers:wacko:

The van is an 86, but first registered in 92. Still only has 50,000 miles on the clock and is as new.

Are they underpowered? Motor homes are usually slow at the best of times, we were hoping being petrol it might be faster than our last one which was a diesel.

Have a look at this link - I found it on this forum - great pics!

http://www.motorhomesforsale.co.nz/92_clipper.htm

Cheers

As someone with experience driving a RHD vehicle ('90 Mini) over here, your biggest problem will be when trying to overtake. But since you probably won't have enough power to overtake, this shouldn't present too much of a problem.

Welcome to the Forum. I don't have any experience with the 22RE, so I'll let those with more experience answer your timing chain question.

Could you please explain the '86/92' above. And I know I'd like to see photos of a Cormorant Clipper. I know I've never seen any.

[Derek up North]

No, not in NZ. The 'upper' Hemisphere and about 17 time zones away. (Montreal).. The closest I've ever been to NZ is Earls Court Road in London.

I stand corrected. I think I might have seen those very pictures before. Something about the 'Roo bar looks familiar. Have you imported kangaroos into NZ or is there a breed of genetically modified sheep that would justify one that big?

I'm guessing that the one you're looking at was built on an '86 Toyota chassis as indicated by the VIN and was imported to NZ in '92?

'86 was the transition year when Toyota first started supplying the '1-Tonne' rear axle (as seen in those photos) with 6 lug nuts visible. The front wheels are still 5 lug (which you can't see under the hub caps). By '87 the fronts were 6 lug too and a hub cap won't fit over them.

The Cormorant appears to be a typical 'stick built' motorhome, though there are atypical details that I see. Looks like they've installed a wading pool on the roof!

We don't have too much experience with diesels over here, but if you're used to diesel power I suppose you might find the 22RE a real rocket. About the only thing I'm used to overtaking are bicycles.

TTFN

[WME]

22RE timing chains will last from 40,000mi to 120,000mi. Depends on maintenance.

Easy check is to remove the cam cover and look at both sides of the chain with a light. As long there is a chain guide on each side of the chain you OK. Missing or broken guides and you will need a new chain and guides. Many aftermarket chains set come with metal guides which last longer than the OEM plastic ones.

I live in the Rocky Mtns in Wyoming I have to go over 9000 ft passes all the time, no problem. Last year I had to start from a stop, going up hill at 12,000ft, that was "interesting" but I did get going and made it over the top at 12,700ft. 1st gear @ 30mph

I have a 22re and an automatic.

[kiwi girl]

Thank you so much WME for taking the time to respond. You have to some extent answered our concerns about the motor being underpowered for the weight of the camper.Your van in the photo looks about the same size. Can you normally cruise up hills in top gear? NZ is a hilly country, though not too steep. Our present van which is a manual diesel, grinds up hills in 2nd gear - very slow, but that's diesels.

BTW, we went through the Rockies (on the California Zephyr) last August on our month long USA trip .It is an amazing country!

I have found timing chain kits on the net which are available if we need them. Our main concern (caused by my son in Florida, who is an engineer and had serious concerns about the weight of the vehicle in relation to the size of the motor), is that the motor won't be put under strain with the weight of the motor home to carry around.

I haven't been able to find out any info on this at all and we are hesitating over buying the van if it will "stuff " the motor prematurely.

We are buying sight unseen as the vehicle is in the South Island and requires 2 flights to get down there, so have to be sure.

Thanks once again. Hope someone can put our minds at rest on this - $26,000 is a lot of money - don't want to waste it!

Cheers

22RE timing chains will last from 40,000mi to 120,000mi. Depends on maintenance.

Easy check is to remove the cam cover and look at both sides of the chain with a light. As long there is a chain guide on each side of the chain you OK. Missing or broken guides and you will need a new chain and guides. Many aftermarket chains set come with metal guides which last longer than the OEM plastic ones.

I live in the Rocky Mtns in Wyoming I have to go over 9000 ft passes all the time, no problem. Last year I had to start from a stop, going up hill at 12,000ft, that was "interesting" but I did get going and made it over the top at 12,700ft. 1st gear @ 30mph

I have a 22re and an automatic.

[timetraveler]

$26,000!!! any idea what that converts to in USD? I'm actually looking at an 86 Odyssey today. He's asking $8800 which I think is very high. Obviously they are much more available here but is that way over RV's of different types?

I've heard they have really cool ones in Australia... is it ridiculously expensive to have one shipped from there?

Also a diesel with a turbo i hear is fine for power... and they get much better mpg's or kpl's in your country...

As far as reliability the toyotas always seem to be the best

[WME]

WOW $26k, Just what is involved in importing an RV into NZ?? Almost seems for that much you could buy one in the US and ship it down. Do you have a right hand drive only rule?

If your flying down to get it, does that imply a boat ride somewhere in your future??

The 22RE is a tough little engine, but is not tolerant of bad maintenance when its ask to work hard pulling around a "fully loaded truck", which is what its doing when attached to an RV. To last 160,000K without an overhaul is not uncommon, except for the chain thing. If yours has an automatic, lock out the overdrive, as it causes the transmission to overheat.

What is your National Speed limit?? Most of us here drive our Toys in the 60 mph (100kph)range. Here in WY the speed limits are 120 or 135 KPH depending on the section of the highway and 105KPH on the back roads. Most passes are pulled in 2nd gear (3sp automatic) around 75KPH, the tall or steep ones require 1st gear in the 50KPH range.

[Derek up North]

NZ$26000 ~ US$19500

[kiwi girl]

All very helpful guys - thank you.

Our speed limits here are 100 kph on motorways and most highways, 50 kph around town. There are variations to this depending on the terrain and accident rates in specific areas.

I'd love to import one from the States, but our Govt slaps on around 40% tax, which makes the price skyrocket.

We are permitted to drive LH drive vehicles, though it can be a bit tricky seeing we drive on the left.

The van we are looking at is in very nice nick - bit of a worry if you can't use the overdrive though - it saves a lot on petrol. Given that our petrol is $1.89 per LITRE, any savings are a bonus. (Wish we had oil wells!).

Most of our motor homes here are in the mid-twenties $ upwards, depending on the year. We were very envious in our recent trip to US of the cheap prices for your consumer goods. Be thankful!

We'll see what happens....

WOW $26k, Just what is involved in importing an RV into NZ?? Almost seems for that much you could buy one in the US and ship it down. Do you have a right hand drive only rule?

If your flying down to get it, does that imply a boat ride somewhere in your future??

The 22RE is a tough little engine, but is not tolerant of bad maintenance when its ask to work hard pulling around a "fully loaded truck", which is what its doing when attached to an RV. To last 160,000K without an overhaul is not uncommon, except for the chain thing. If yours has an automatic, lock out the overdrive, as it causes the transmission to overheat.

What is your National Speed limit?? Most of us here drive our Toys in the 60 mph (100kph)range. Here in WY the speed limits are 120 or 135 KPH depending on the section of the highway and 105KPH on the back roads. Most passes are pulled in 2nd gear (3sp automatic) around 75KPH, the tall or steep ones require 1st gear in the 50KPH range.

[wetboy]

Thank you so much WME for taking the time to respond. You have to some extent answered our concerns about the motor being underpowered for the weight of the camper.Your van in the photo looks about the same size. Can you normally cruise up hills in top gear? NZ is a hilly country, though not too steep. Our present van which is a manual diesel, grinds up hills in 2nd gear - very slow, but that's diesels.

BTW, we went through the Rockies (on the California Zephyr) last August on our month long USA trip .It is an amazing country!

I have found timing chain kits on the net which are available if we need them. Our main concern (caused by my son in Florida, who is an engineer and had serious concerns about the weight of the vehicle in relation to the size of the motor), is that the motor won't be put under strain with the weight of the motor home to carry around.

I haven't been able to find out any info on this at all and we are hesitating over buying the van if it will "stuff " the motor prematurely.

We are buying sight unseen as the vehicle is in the South Island and requires 2 flights to get down there, so have to be sure.

Thanks once again. Hope someone can put our minds at rest on this - $26,000 is a lot of money - don't want to waste it!

Cheers

G'day...from a Northern Beaches (Sydneysider) native here in the U.S.!

I live full time in my Toy and can tell you they are adequate for hill country. Not much passing power, though.

The real problem is not the engine. The 22re engine is near bullet-proof maintained well, and it's specifically why I bought my Toy. The real "strain" is on the tranny. The autos just were not meant to lug all that weight and wind resistance around. You will burn through your tranny fluid at much higher rate, and a large aftermarket tranny cooler is a MUST. I run pure synthetic, and still change it every 10-12 miles! I don't know what kind of tranny you have in yours, there were several different models put in over the years.

Mine is A43D, and as such has a particular issue with the rear 3 sealing rings going bad. I had to replace mine, as I lost third gear after 5000 miles. Look up Spungo's posts on that matter on this forum if you have that tranny. The most important thing I would check out is ANY slippage in the tranny. Go up hills in drive and you should feel good, though underpowered, pull.

Testing the tranny goes like this...When going from Park to drive, you should feel a solid "hit" as the torque converter locks up. Do it again for Neutral to drive. The time lag should be under 1.2 seconds. The tranny works entirely on pressure differentials, and this "lag" test determines how well the system keeps pressure. Very "mushy" trannys will probably require a rebuild in short order. There are other tests, but they require a RPM meter, and you likely wont have one. But those, along with a "seat-of-the-pants" test on hills will tell you much. Again, don't expect a lot of acceleration, but as the engine revs up past 2000RPM, you should not feel any slipping. These tranny's lock out at 1800 RPM, so if your engine is winding out and you are not accelerating much, you have a slipping tranny.

Hope that helps. BTW, while the coach does look good from the pics, that price in US dollars would be considered EXTREMELY high here, even for a low mileage, showroom Toy. Those can fetch $8-10K here. I looked around, waited, and got mine for $4K with only 29,000 miles. Of course, supply and demand is everything, so look around for anything comparable locally on which to base the price. But I would try to bring that down considerably...say $12K U.S.D.

oooo, I'll send you mine for $9K- with all the upgrades and fixes! I stuffing her into a Cargo hold is a pretty penny though. Is NZ as bad as Oz when it comes to importing vehicles? I'd love to ship mine don there and spend a few years exploring. Later on, maybe we can switch for few months and you can explore the U.S. in mine, and I'll do the same in KiwiLand in yours! Ah, to dream...

[kiwi girl]

Hi there

I did try to wade through the online stuff from Customs - as you say the vans are very much cheaper over there. I gave up trying to work out all the regulations though. It seems you can bring just about any vehicle in, but getting it certified to drive on NZ roads is another story. Has to be more than 20 years old or the regulations for a LH drive are daunting to say the least. Different for you as you own the vehicle already.

Sigh - guess we'll just have to bite the bullet and look for something else. Your comments re the tranny have put us off - the van is a long distance away so can't test it - don't fancy topping up the fluid that often though.

Thanks very much for your input.

Cheers

G'day...from a Northern Beaches (Sydneysider) native here in the U.S.!

I live full time in my Toy and can tell you they are adequate for hill country. Not much passing power, though.

The real problem is not the engine. The 22re engine is near bullet-proof maintained well, and it's specifically why I bought my Toy. The real "strain" is on the tranny. The autos just were not meant to lug all that weight and wind resistance around. You will burn through your tranny fluid at much higher rate, and a large aftermarket tranny cooler is a MUST. I run pure synthetic, and still change it every 10-12 miles! I don't know what kind of tranny you have in yours, there were several different models put in over the years.

Mine is A43D, and as such has a particular issue with the rear 3 sealing rings going bad. I had to replace mine, as I lost third gear after 5000 miles. Look up Spungo's posts on that matter on this forum if you have that tranny. The most important thing I would check out is ANY slippage in the tranny. Go up hills in drive and you should feel good, though underpowered, pull.

Testing the tranny goes like this...When going from Park to drive, you should feel a solid "hit" as the torque converter locks up. Do it again for Neutral to drive. The time lag should be under 1.2 seconds. The tranny works entirely on pressure differentials, and this "lag" test determines how well the system keeps pressure. Very "mushy" trannys will probably require a rebuild in short order. There are other tests, but they require a RPM meter, and you likely wont have one. But those, along with a "seat-of-the-pants" test on hills will tell you much. Again, don't expect a lot of acceleration, but as the engine revs up past 2000RPM, you should not feel any slipping. These tranny's lock out at 1800 RPM, so if your engine is winding out and you are not accelerating much, you have a slipping tranny.

Hope that helps. BTW, while the coach does look good from the pics, that price in US dollars would be considered EXTREMELY high here, even for a low mileage, showroom Toy. Those can fetch $8-10K here. I looked around, waited, and got mine for $4K with only 29,000 miles. Of course, supply and demand is everything, so look around for anything comparable locally on which to base the price. But I would try to bring that down considerably...say $12K U.S.D.

oooo, I'll send you mine for $9K- with all the upgrades and fixes! I stuffing her into a Cargo hold is a pretty penny though. Is NZ as bad as Oz when it comes to importing vehicles? I'd love to ship mine don there and spend a few years exploring. Later on, maybe we can switch for few months and you can explore the U.S. in mine, and I'll do the same in KiwiLand in yours! Ah, to dream...

[Derek up North]

I'm pretty sure he actually meant every 10,000 to 12,000 miles!

[WME]

I have added the big trannie cooler to mine. Once a year I drain the transmission pan, 2qts, the refill to normal. Like I said I live in the Rockies and climb many hills. So far the maintenance program has worked fine. My Toy had 110,000K on it.

Driving at 100kph you DO NOT need the O/D. Think of the many HiLux pickups running around with just 4sp manual transmissions, 3rd in the automatic is same as 4th in the manual gearbox. he O/D ratio is 32% and at 100kph the engine would be turning around 2400 rpm. It just doesn't make enough power at that rpm to make the MH go 100 kph.

Without O/D I averaged almost 6 kpl on a 4800k trip. I drove in the 100-110kph range.

The distance, time, money and being unable to inspect make this a bit of a crap shoot.

There are inspection ideas here and on the Yahoo Toyota RV group. If you start leaning back toward the Toyota get the inspections lists and see if you can find a local mech to look it over.

[wetboy]

I'm pretty sure he actually meant every 10,000 to 12,000 miles!

ooops....yeah, I did. I change it about once a year or every 10-12 THOUSAND miles. Hahaha.

That being said, for the price they were asking, and not being able to test drive it first....I think caution would be the order of the day.

When I flew out to see my coach, I bought a round-trip ticket. I had no problem walking away from it... if it wasn't what I wanted for the price. As I see it, spending a few hundred in order not to make a $19,000 mistake is quite good insurance. Just make a little holiday out of the trip, and if you like the coach for that price, you can consider it a bonus. If not, you had a nice weekend getaway. Besides, if you don't look too eager, they will probably bring down the price MORE than enough to offset the trip. But there is no way I'd send that much $$, for a coach sight unseen. Not unless it came with Megan Fox...and even then I'd ask for a discount, what with all those tattoos of hers...;-)

[wetboy]

I have added the big trannie cooler to mine. Once a year I drain the transmission pan, 2qts, the refill to normal. Like I said I live in the Rockies and climb many hills. So far the maintenance program has worked fine. My Toy had 110,000K on it.

Driving at 100kph you DO NOT need the O/D. Think of the many HiLux pickups running around with just 4sp manual transmissions, 3rd in the automatic is same as 4th in the manual gearbox. he O/D ratio is 32% and at 100kph the engine would be turning around 2400 rpm. It just doesn't make enough power at that rpm to make the MH go 100 kph.

Without O/D I averaged almost 6 kpl on a 4800k trip. I drove in the 100-110kph range.

The distance, time, money and being unable to inspect make this a bit of a crap shoot.

There are inspection ideas here and on the Yahoo Toyota RV group. If you start leaning back toward the Toyota get the inspections lists and see if you can find a local mech to look it over.

Only 2 Qts? You should be able to squeeze at least 4 out of there, especially with the added amount in the cooler. They hold about 7 plus whats in the cooler and lines. Consider just a pulling the return hose off your cooler and running the engine. The pump should get about half that out, with the rest remaining in the Torque converter. Changing that much out every 6 months should keep it fairly fresh...

My service schedule is probably overkill, but with the loads those poor little trannys have to pull, i think it's cheap insurance. I think the 340 model is supposed to be more robust, but I'd still probably baby that too. Tranny fluid is relatively cheap to replace on that kind of a schedule...

[WME]

Only 2 Qts? You should be able to squeeze at least 4 out of there, especially with the added amount in the cooler. They hold about 7 plus whats in the cooler and lines. Consider just a pulling the return hose off your cooler and running the engine. The pump should get about half that out, with the rest remaining in the Torque converter. Changing that much out every 6 months should keep it fairly fresh...

My service schedule is probably overkill, but with the loads those poor little trannys have to pull, i think it's cheap insurance. I think the 340 model is supposed to be more robust, but I'd still probably baby that too. Tranny fluid is relatively cheap to replace on that kind of a schedule...

The pan holds 2 qts. Ive been doing this for 5 years with good results. I have a big cooler and a temp gauge, my trannie temps are around 190, dino fluid is fine working at that temp. The 2 qts adds a new batch of additives, the fluid comes out nicely red with out any funny smells.

I flushed the trannie when I bought it, it took 16 qts to get things all sparkly.

Taking the cooler line off and putting it in a bucket works just fine as long as you remember to keep adding fluid as the engine is running.

WME

[kiwi girl]

Help - I need some translations! What is this cooler you guys are mentioning and where is it placed in the motor?

We have a Ford Taurus and it has a "coolant container which feeds into the radiator - are we talking about a similar set-up for the tranny?

What is the correct temperature for the transmission and where does the temp gauge sit in relation to everything else.

A bit technical for me - I just a mere woman! LOL!

The pan holds 2 qts. Ive been doing this for 5 years with good results. I have a big cooler and a temp gauge, my trannie temps are around 190, dino fluid is fine working at that temp. The 2 qts adds a new batch of additives, the fluid comes out nicely red with out any funny smells.

I flushed the trannie when I bought it, it took 16 qts to get things all sparkly.

Taking the cooler line off and putting it in a bucket works just fine as long as you remember to keep adding fluid as the engine is running.

WME

[Derek up North]

#1 There is no transmission temperature gauge standard in the dash. It is an add-on accessory.

#2 Part of the standard factory radiator is actually dedicated to cooling automatic transmission fluid (ATF) that is fed from and to the transmission by 2 hoses (high pressure & return).

#3 It is quite common for people to add a second transmission cooler to supplement the factory effort. Especially those who live in warmer climates with lots of climbing. This is usually (I think) added to the high pressure line leading to the radiator. The 2nd cooler is usually mounted in front of the standard radiator.

#4 There's much discussion as to where the best place is to measure the ATF temperature. Personally, I don't think the location is critical. What I think is important is to be able to monitor any extreme change in temperature.

That said, I don't think you experience the same kind of temperatures in NZ.

[WME]

The factory setup for the 88 Pickup is a flat plate cooler mounted INSIDE the radiator.

In moderate climates it works OK. If your in the mountains a bunch then it sets up a vicious circle. The transmission gets hotter and it dumps more heat into the radiator and the engine gets hotter and then the transmission doesn't cool as well so it gets even hotter, making the radiator hotter still.... this goes on till you go down hill or something boils over.

Most of the Toy owners around here add a second cooler for the transmission. It looks like a small radiator and you put it in front of the normal radiator so it gets lots of cool air. 175 F transmission fluid has an almost unlimited life 200,000k, at 250 F its life span is around 25,000k, at 300 F its life span is 1600k. Again many Toy M/H owners have installed a trannie temp gauge just to make sure we're OK.

[Sunnynshare]

The factory setup for the 88 Pickup is a flat plate cooler mounted INSIDE the radiator.

I guess 1987 pickups were different because they came with an extra cooler along with the radiator one.

Kim

[WME]

I guess 1987 pickups were different because they came with an extra cooler along with the radiator one.

Kim

OK thats a new one I thought that only the V-6 with the A340 had them. Does your Toy have a ETC switch??