Leaking Charcoal Canister and Overheating Engine

[Charis]

Okay, this is too wierd. Last weekend we headed out to the mountains with our 1982 Dolphin, we have 22RE engine and a 4 speed manual transmission, and about a half hour out of town it started sputtering like it was starving for gas, but we had just filled up. We managed to get it into a parking lot at at gas station before it completely died. As luck would have it, we were just down the street from a Toyota Service shop. They sent someone over who looked at it and determined that what we thought was a broken fuel line, was in fact an overflowing charcoal EVAP system canister, which he felt was due to the use of the new locking gas cap my boyfriend had purchased. He felt it was not allowing the tank to vent, especially as we climbed into the mountains, and that was causing the fuel to overflow into the canister.

So we put the old gas cap on and it seemed to be working fine. We drove on to the campsite and everything seemed okay. However, when we started back Monday we only got about a mile from the campsite and the temperature guage began screaming up towards the red line. So again we pulled over. We checked fluids and had plenty of both antifreeze and oil. The radiator was not steaming nor did it appear that anything was running into the neighboring overflow reservoir and the hoses, while warm, were not scorching hot. So we thought it might be a bad temp gage, so we tried again...after releasing more pressure from the gas tank by unscrewing the top. It seemed to run okay in idle but sputtered as soon as we put a load onto it. Even driving it with the heat on full blast in the cab didn't help, the temp guage kept climbing towards the red line.

We ended up having it towed all the way back to town and to the shop. Well today the shop is testing it and can't find anything wrong. I'm wondering if the problems could be all related. Neither gas cap seems to be vented, at least neither of them have any holes in them, nor are either of them marked as "vented". So does anyone know exactly what part number we need for this gas cap? Should we actually have a vented cap or is there some other problem that would be causing both the overflow, the overheating and the acting like it is out of gas?

Help!

Signed,

Confused in Denver

Edited July 9, 2009 by Charis

[Bodybagger]

"...about a half hour out of town it started sputtering like it was starving for gas"

It may have been starving for gas. 30 minutes seems like about the right amount of time to develop a really good vacuum on your tank if the evap canister and the gas cap were both malfunctioning. You see there is a check valve in the gas cap that will allow the tank to hold pressure, but will allow air in to equalize pressure so a vacuum doesn't develop. There is also a check valve in the evap canister that performs the same function. Since there are two valves that perform the same function, the system is redundant and will work properly until both valves function incorrectly. One way to screw both of them up is to grossly overfill your fuel tank. This will happen if you top it off while it is leaning slightly to the drivers side. This will allow liquid fuel to be sucked into the evap canister and float the check valves into the wrong position.

...was in fact an overflowing charcoal EVAP system canister, which he felt was due to the use of the new locking gas cap my boyfriend had purchased. He felt it was not allowing the tank to vent, especially as we climbed into the mountains, and that was causing the fuel to overflow into the canister.

Take both gas caps and clean them good and wrap your lips around the threads and suck. It should allow air to flow in. Now blow. It should NOT allow air to flow out. If it passes this check, there is nothing wrong with the cap. Overfilling will allow liquid fuel to enter the evap canister.

So we put the old gas cap on and it seemed to be working fine. We drove on to the campsite and everything seemed okay. However, when we started back Monday we only got about a mile from the campsite and the temperature guage began screaming up towards the red line.

The campsite in the mountains is at a higher elevation and thus lower pressure. So the relative pressure inside the tank increased and vented through the evap canister and condensed inside as it was designed to, and exacerbated the problem of your fuel-soaked evap canister. When the valve opened, it probably allowed enormous amounts of fuel to enter your intake resulting in an extremely rich running engine, and at high altitude nonetheless (when your engine needs to run LEANER). Perfect recipe for an overheat.

So again we pulled over. We checked fluids and had plenty of both antifreeze and oil. The radiator was not steaming nor did it appear that anything was running into the neighboring overflow reservoir and the hoses, while warm, were not scorching hot.

This may be a coincidence but it sounds like your thermostat is sticking and it should be replaced. If the temperature is in the red, your top and bottom radiator hoses should be hot enough to burn your skin off. If they are not, coolant is not flowing sufficiently through the system and the most obvious cause is a sticking thermostat.

So we thought it might be a bad temp gage, so we tried again...after releasing more pressure from the gas tank by unscrewing the top.

The pressure wont hurt you (UNLESS the check valves in the evap can are screwed up)... it's when it develops a vacuum that hurts you.

It seemed to run okay in idle but sputtered as soon as we put a load onto it. Even driving it with the heat on full blast in the cab didn't help, the temp guage kept climbing towards the red line.

Again, sounds like the valves may be allowing a large amount of fuel to enter your intake and it is running too rich. It may have even coated your spark plugs and, God forbid, your catalytic converter with carbon.

We ended up having it towed all the way back to town and to the shop. Well today the shop is testing it and can't find anything wrong.

It's because they don't have a check engine code to tell them where to look. The skills and critical thinking ability of mechanics these days have been blunted by the advent of OBDII.

I'm wondering if the problems could be all related. Neither gas cap seems to be vented, at least neither of them have any holes in them, nor are either of them marked as "vented".

They all have a check valve and are vented in a way that allows air to be drawn in from under the outer black plastic cap.

So does anyone know exactly what part number we need for this gas cap?

If it fits, it will do. They are all valved with a one way check valve. There are two varieties. regular and pre-release. Pre-release opens a vent when you rotate counter clockwise to slowly release pressure and prevent fuel spray from opening it too fast. This is a saftey feature and does not affect its funtion in any way.

Should we actually have a vented cap

As I said, your cap is already vented. I can't tell you whether or not it works correctly because it is in Denver and I am here. You'll have to test it with the suck/blow method. They actually make a device to do this for you if you are either embarrassed, squeamish, or scared of gas fumes, and have a hundred and fifty dollars laying around.

or is there some other problem that would be causing both the overflow, the overheating and the acting like it is out of gas?

Yes. The thermostat is like 9 dollars. Replace it. It should be done every year. You want the 192 degree thermostat. A sluggish thermostat may not present itself until a situation like this (running extremely rich).

Check spark plugs for carbon fouling from the rich mixture. Since they are already out, replace them. They are less than $2 each. Gap to .031"

Have your mechanic remove the O2 sensor and check for excessive backpressure while running, as this indicates a fouled catalytic converter, which will cause EXTREME hesitation when you press on the accelerator along with overheating due to increased backpressure. But make SURE its plugged before replacing it! If you need to replace the converter, make sure you fix the problem that plugged it before replacing it, or the new one will quickly suffer the same fate.

Address the evap canister. Test it as shown in the manual. If it is defective, disable it. It has 3 hoses on it. Two on top and one that leads underneath to allow air to enter (or in your case, liquid to drip out). Remove the top two hoses from the evap canister and insert vacuum plugs into their ends to prevent fuel leakage and vacuum leakage. No need to plug the hose fittings on the evap canister. Replace your evap canister when you get a chance. It is a special order item. Print this page out for your mechanic to read. Also, print the manual page which is attached as a pdf.

If you find this information helpful, please let me know.

evap_EFI.pdf

[Charis]

"...about a half hour out of town it started sputtering like it was starving for gas"

It may have been starving for gas. 30 minutes seems like about the right amount of time to develop a really good vacuum on your tank if the evap canister and the gas cap were both malfunctioning. You see there is a check valve in the gas cap that will allow the tank to hold pressure, but will allow air in to equalize pressure so a vacuum doesn't develop. There is also a check valve in the evap canister that performs the same function. Since there are two valves that perform the same function, the system is redundant and will work properly until both valves function incorrectly. One way to screw both of them up is to grossly overfill your fuel tank. This will happen if you top it off while it is leaning slightly to the drivers side. This will allow liquid fuel to be sucked into the evap canister and float the check valves into the wrong position.

Take both gas caps and clean them good and wrap your lips around the threads and suck. It should allow air to flow in. Now blow. It should NOT allow air to flow out. If it passes this check, there is nothing wrong with the cap. Overfilling will allow liquid fuel to enter the evap canister. The campsite in the mountains is at a higher elevation and thus lower pressure. So the relative pressure inside the tank increased and vented through the evap canister and condensed inside as it was designed to, and exacerbated the problem of your fuel-soaked evap canister. When the valve opened, it probably allowed enormous amounts of fuel to enter your intake resulting in an extremely rich running engine, and at high altitude nonetheless (when your engine needs to run LEANER). Perfect recipe for an overheat. This may be a coincidence but it sounds like your thermostat is sticking and it should be replaced. If the temperature is in the red, your top and bottom radiator hoses should be hot enough to burn your skin off. If they are not, coolant is not flowing sufficiently through the system and the most obvious cause is a sticking thermostat.The pressure wont hurt you (UNLESS the check valves in the evap can are screwed up)... it's when it develops a vacuum that hurts you. Again, sounds like the valves may be allowing a large amount of fuel to enter your intake and it is running too rich. It may have even coated your spark plugs and, God forbid, your catalytic converter with carbon.It's because they don't have a check engine code to tell them where to look. The skills and critical thinking ability of mechanics these days have been blunted by the advent of OBDII. They all have a check valve and are vented in a way that allows air to be drawn in from under the outer black plastic cap. If it fits, it will do. They are all valved with a one way check valve. There are two varieties. regular and pre-release. Pre-release opens a vent when you rotate counter clockwise to slowly release pressure and prevent fuel spray from opening it too fast. This is a saftey feature and does not affect its funtion in any way.As I said, your cap is already vented. I can't tell you whether or not it works correctly because it is in Denver and I am here. You'll have to test it with the suck/blow method. They actually make a device to do this for you if you are either embarrassed, squeamish, or scared of gas fumes, and have a hundred and fifty dollars laying around.Yes. The thermostat is like 9 dollars. Replace it. It should be done every year. You want the 192 degree thermostat. A sluggish thermostat may not present itself until a situation like this (running extremely rich).

Check spark plugs for carbon fouling from the rich mixture. Since they are already out, replace them. They are less than $2 each. Gap to .031"

Have your mechanic remove the O2 sensor and check for excessive backpressure while running, as this indicates a fouled catalytic converter, which will cause EXTREME hesitation when you press on the accelerator along with overheating due to increased backpressure. But make SURE its plugged before replacing it! If you need to replace the converter, make sure you fix the problem that plugged it before replacing it, or the new one will quickly suffer the same fate.

Address the evap canister. Test it as shown in the manual. If it is defective, disable it. It has 3 hoses on it. Two on top and one that leads underneath to allow air to enter (or in your case, liquid to drip out). Remove the top two hoses from the evap canister and insert vacuum plugs into their ends to prevent fuel leakage and vacuum leakage. No need to plug the hose fittings on the evap canister. Replace your evap canister when you get a chance. It is a special order item. Print this page out for your mechanic to read. Also, print the manual page which is attached as a pdf.

If you find this information helpful, please let me know.

Thank you...will get this info to the mechanic and have him check...will keep everyone posted.

[Charis]

An update....still not fixed and mechanic says he is stymied. He's done the following:

• Replaced thermostat. That seems to have solved the issue of the temperature guage showing the engine as being too hot.
  
• Replaced the gas cap with a brand new one that is definitely a vented cap and even just sitting in the lot it's still building up pressure in the gas tank.
  
• Then he put in a different EVAP charcoal cannister and tried to drive it and about four miles away the engine died and gas was again flowing out the canister.
  

One suggested possibility was that the exhaust was too close to gas tank causing gas to become overheated and thus excessive vapor pressure. This does not seem likely because the pressure is building even when the Dolphin is just sitting in the lot without the engine running and the exhaust was in the same place when we took it on the June trip and had no problems, although we did get only 5 miles / gallon on that trip.

Those are also the same reasons that the suggested answer of a failing and overheating fuel pump was rejected. If it were an overheating fuel pump then there should be no pressure buildup from just sitting in the parking lot of the repair shop.

Any and all suggestions would be gratefully accepted as we're at wit's end as we have company coming next weekend and had hoped to have the kids sleep in it, but we're not sure it will even make the drive from the shop to the house...let alone the drive to the nearest dumping station. We also only have a few week until our next camping trip and if we can't rely on "Howie" to get us there and back we will need time to make other arrangements.

[motoyhomme]

Since you have a 1982 Toyota then you probably have the 22R engine and not the 22RE. The 22R is the carburateur model and not the fuel injected version. With the very high consumption of gas (5mpg) and the overheating it sounds to me that you have a stuck closed choke. It will cause it to run extremely rich and feed raw gas back into the fuel canister among other things. The engine will sputter and cough and finally quit running. After it sits for awhile and the engine is cool it will start back up fairly easily until that stuck choke comes back into play. Have a mechanic check the carb.

Good Luck,

Allen

[Charis]

Since you have a 1982 Toyota then you probably have the 22R engine and not the 22RE. The 22R is the carburateur model and not the fuel injected version. With the very high consumption of gas (5mpg) and the overheating it sounds to me that you have a stuck closed choke. It will cause it to run extremely rich and feed raw gas back into the fuel canister among other things. The engine will sputter and cough and finally quit running. After it sits for awhile and the engine is cool it will start back up fairly easily until that stuck choke comes back into play. Have a mechanic check the carb.

Good Luck,

Allen

I am not sure of which kind, however, there is an EFI mounted on the side of the vehicle which I have been told means Electronic Fuel Injection.

[motoyhomme]

I am not sure of which kind, however, there is an EFI mounted on the side of the vehicle which I have been told means Electronic Fuel Injection.

Is the EFI mounted on the side of the vehicle or on the side of the engine? The 22R will have a large round airfilter on the left side of the engine extending over the top of the valve cover somewhat while the 22RE will have a narrow rectangular box with EFI printed on it at the left of the valve cover (as you face the front of the engine). The reason I asked about the carb was that Toyota didn't install the 22RE in the pickup until late 1983, however you may have an engine swap or I'm just plain mistaken.

Allen

[Charis]

Is the EFI mounted on the side of the vehicle or on the side of the engine? The 22R will have a large round airfilter on the left side of the engine extending over the top of the valve cover somewhat while the 22RE will have a narrow rectangular box with EFI printed on it at the left of the valve cover (as you face the front of the engine). The reason I asked about the carb was that Toyota didn't install the 22RE in the pickup until late 1983, however you may have an engine swap or I'm just plain mistaken.

Allen

Side of vehicle. Will have to check tomorrow, it's at my boyfriend's house, to see if there is a big airfilter. I may also take picture so can post.

[nibs]

It takes quite a bit of driving to clear a flooded charcoal can. I bypassed mine for a while until the gas evaporated then hooked it back up, no worries. Only do that if you really know how. Mine got flooded from overfilling the gas tank, when the gas pump clicks off, dont try squeezing any more fuel in.

[Charis]

Side of vehicle. Will have to check tomorrow, it's at my boyfriend's house, to see if there is a big airfilter. I may also take picture so can post.

I checked and it IS an EFI engine. Plus the carb valve wouldn't explain the pressure building in the tank when the thing is parked, would it?

[Bodybagger]

"Vented" is probably poor nomenclature for gas caps as it gives the impression that it allows air or vapors to travel both ways, in and out.

A vented cap only allows air to enter when so much fuel has been drawn from the tank so quickly that a negative pressure develops. It DOES NOT allow pressure to escape from the tank. It is specifically designed to retain the pressure that develops in the tank.

I repeat, it DOES NOT allow pressure to escape from the tank. Since the early 1970's, all automotive gas caps have been required to contain a check valve that allows air to enter, but does not allow fuel vapor to escape.

If you buy an automotive gas cap, it has a one way check valve in it and it is called "vented." No exceptions... (unless you buy one specifically for an antique vehicle or for off-road use, such as racing).

See http://www.stant.com/brochure.cfm?brochure...location_id=170

REID VAPOR PRESSURE

With today's gasoline, you will see up to 9 PSI of vapor pressure develop in your tank at 100 degrees. It doesn't matter if there is 1 cup of liquid gasoline or 10 gallons of liquid gasoline. The vapor pressure will be the same. See http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reid_Vapor_Pressure

Your vehicle is running extremely rich. Recall from the evap system diagram that an evap hose connects directly to your engine's intake (under vacuum) and if liquid fuel gets in there it is sucked straight into the engine.

I recommend, again, that your mechanic disconnect and plug the following:

*The evap hose that leads to the fuel tank

*The evap hose that goes between the charcoal canister and the engine's intank manifold

And then check for more than 2psi backpressure at the oxygen sensor fitting (confirming plugged catalytic converter).

ADDITIONAL RECOMMENDATIONS

Since last time I wrote, I additionally suggest that a mechanic connect a vacuum gauge to your intake manifold and check the vacuum under load. If the vacuum gets low or approaches zero under load, this also confirms an exhaust restriction.

See http://www.earlycuda.org/tech/vacuum2.htm for a small example of the diagnostic capabilities of a vacuum gauge in trained hands.

But remember that untrained inexperienced hands will not be able to interperet their findings. Thank you for keeping us informed. I'm glad to help you any way I can. BTW, remember:

Any idiot can put a stethoscope to a persons chest, but that does not make them a cardiologist, now does it!

[Charis]

Thanks for the additional suggestions. We gave our mechanic the last list and he said he checked everything on the it, but will also provide him this one and keep folks posted as to results. We do so appreciate the help.

"Vented" is probably poor nomenclature for gas caps as it gives the impression that it allows air or vapors to travel both ways, in and out.

A vented cap only allows air to enter when so much fuel has been drawn from the tank so quickly that a negative pressure develops. It DOES NOT allow pressure to escape from the tank. It is specifically designed to retain the pressure that develops in the tank.

I repeat, it DOES NOT allow pressure to escape from the tank. Since the early 1970's, all automotive gas caps have been required to contain a check valve that allows air to enter, but does not allow fuel vapor to escape.

If you buy an automotive gas cap, it has a one way check valve in it and it is called "vented." No exceptions... (unless you buy one specifically for an antique vehicle or for off-road use, such as racing).

See http://www.stant.com/brochure.cfm?brochure...location_id=170

REID VAPOR PRESSURE

With today's gasoline, you will see up to 9 PSI of vapor pressure develop in your tank at 100 degrees. It doesn't matter if there is 1 cup of liquid gasoline or 10 gallons of liquid gasoline. The vapor pressure will be the same. See http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reid_Vapor_Pressure

Your vehicle is running extremely rich. Recall from the evap system diagram that an evap hose connects directly to your engine's intake (under vacuum) and if liquid fuel gets in there it is sucked straight into the engine.

I recommend, again, that your mechanic disconnect and plug the following:

*The evap hose that leads to the fuel tank

*The evap hose that goes between the charcoal canister and the engine's intank manifold

And then check for more than 2psi backpressure at the oxygen sensor fitting (confirming plugged catalytic converter).

ADDITIONAL RECOMMENDATIONS

Since last time I wrote, I additionally suggest that a mechanic connect a vacuum gauge to your intake manifold and check the vacuum under load. If the vacuum gets low or approaches zero under load, this also confirms an exhaust restriction.

See http://www.earlycuda.org/tech/vacuum2.htm for a small example of the diagnostic capabilities of a vacuum gauge in trained hands.

But remember that untrained inexperienced hands will not be able to interperet their findings. Thank you for keeping us informed. I'm glad to help you any way I can. BTW, remember:

Any idiot can put a stethoscope to a persons chest, but that does not make them a cardiologist, now does it!

Edited July 31, 2009 by Charis

[Maineah]

This defiantly is a RE? It is not carbureted? If it is fuel injected the only connection to the engine from the canister is a small vacuum line. It is the vent for the canister. The canister is designed not to allow fuel to be introduced into the engine that’s why it runs out the hose. The vacuum line is tiny about 1/8” it vents vapor into the engine at a very small rate to vent the tank, it is vented prior to the throttle plate so it does not see vacuum at idle. I think you have reversed fuel lines particularly if the tank or fuel pump has been replaced. I believe the tank vent line is at the top of the tank and the fuel return line (all fuel injected systems pump more fuel then the engine needs) extends deeper into the tank so if the deeper line is hooked to the canister when pressure builds in the tank it is forcing raw fuel not vapor into the canister. I can’t say for sure if it is possible to force fuel through the tiny vacuum line but it may explain why it has to be driven to make it run poorly. Now if it is carbureted the answer is simple the carb is also vented to the canister if there is a issue with the carb (leaking float valve) it will fill the canister and flood the engine at the same time. By the way we have had 10% alcohol here in Maine for years my canister does not overflow.

[motoyhomme]

I checked and it IS an EFI engine. Plus the carb valve wouldn't explain the pressure building in the tank when the thing is parked, would it?

I have a 1983 Sunrader that has the 22R engine. If I fill the tank completely and it is parked in the sun, with the engine off, pressure builds up in the 26 gallon tank enough to push gas out of the gas fill hose and/or the vent hose. I'm still wondering how you got an EFI engine for a 1982 Toyota.

Again, good luck and keep us informed,

Allen

[Maineah]

If it is over full it is going to force fuel out, the tanks are old technology and can be over filled. The newer tanks have chambers in them that make it very difficult to over fill them. The entire ideal is to reduce hydrocarbon emissions this is why the caps are sealed against pressure and that is why the canisters have purge lines to vent off the vapors to the engine. If your canister is overflowing and the tank is not full you have a problem. Pressure will build in the tank no matter what you do gas comes out of the ground close to 55 degrees so when it heats it expands. I have no ideal how to calculate the expansion rate but I would bet that you could gain a gallon or more of volume with expanding fuel and it has to go some where.

[Bodybagger]

Pressure will build in the tank no matter what you do gas comes out of the ground close to 55 degrees so when it heats it expands. I have no ideal how to calculate the expansion rate but I would bet that you could gain a gallon or more of volume with expanding fuel and it has to go some where.

The volume of a specific mass of gasoline expands 1% per 18F temperature increase.

If you start at 50F and warm to 90F, you'l get about a 2% increase in volume. At 20 gallons, that amounts to almost 2 quarts of gasoline that has nowhere to go.

The same thing happens with LP gas and refrigerants. That's why a tank (propane, freon, etc.) cannot be legally filled beyond 80% full. When the liquid expands due to heat, if it has nowhere to go, the container explodes.

Condensable fluids will develop the pressure in a closed container given by their pressure/temperature curve. A 10 gallon tank with 1 teaspoon of liquid gasoline (and saturated vapor) will have 9psi @100F. The same tank with 9.9 gallons of gasoline will have 9psi @100F.

But fill the tank to the top with 10 gallons and you will have 2 quarts of liquid gasoline squirt out the evap system when pressures far exceed 9 psi.

[TICOTICOMUSIC]

Thanks alot for these. Good info- My prob seems simular ..I began noticing a gas smell occasionally ,even while vehicle is standing (engine off) Its running good these days but temp gauge is approaching too hot.

I tapped the thermostat housing and it seemed to help.

My plans are to flush coolant system, the replace Thermo with a 192 degree Thermo, then test the charcoal cannister..But now you got me concerned about carbon build up

My gas cap seems to be a primitive simple one..unvented

So i will concentrate on charcoal device

Please advise further if you will

Thanks

"Vented" is probably poor nomenclature for gas caps as it gives the impression that it allows air or vapors to travel both ways, in and out.

A vented cap only allows air to enter when so much fuel has been drawn from the tank so quickly that a negative pressure develops. It DOES NOT allow pressure to escape from the tank. It is specifically designed to retain the pressure that develops in the tank.

I repeat, it DOES NOT allow pressure to escape from the tank. Since the early 1970's, all automotive gas caps have been required to contain a check valve that allows air to enter, but does not allow fuel vapor to escape.

If you buy an automotive gas cap, it has a one way check valve in it and it is called "vented." No exceptions... (unless you buy one specifically for an antique vehicle or for off-road use, such as racing).

See http://www.stant.com...location_id=170

REID VAPOR PRESSURE

With today's gasoline, you will see up to 9 PSI of vapor pressure develop in your tank at 100 degrees. It doesn't matter if there is 1 cup of liquid gasoline or 10 gallons of liquid gasoline. The vapor pressure will be the same. See http://en.wikipedia...._Vapor_Pressure

Your vehicle is running extremely rich. Recall from the evap system diagram that an evap hose connects directly to your engine's intake (under vacuum) and if liquid fuel gets in there it is sucked straight into the engine.

I recommend, again, that your mechanic disconnect and plug the following:

*The evap hose that leads to the fuel tank

*The evap hose that goes between the charcoal canister and the engine's intank manifold

And then check for more than 2psi backpressure at the oxygen sensor fitting (confirming plugged catalytic converter).

ADDITIONAL RECOMMENDATIONS

Since last time I wrote, I additionally suggest that a mechanic connect a vacuum gauge to your intake manifold and check the vacuum under load. If the vacuum gets low or approaches zero under load, this also confirms an exhaust restriction.

See http://www.earlycuda...ech/vacuum2.htm for a small example of the diagnostic capabilities of a vacuum gauge in trained hands.

But remember that untrained inexperienced hands will not be able to interperet their findings. Thank you for keeping us informed. I'm glad to help you any way I can. BTW, remember:

Any idiot can put a stethoscope to a persons chest, but that does not make them a cardiologist, now does it!