Totally new to RV Ownership

[Will Hawkins]

Hi All,

My wife and I just bought a 1985 Toyota 21' Escaper motorhome yesterday. And that is the extent of my Motorhome knowledge. Oh I did know about the 5 lug vs 6 lug and this is a 6 lug. We have been talking about it for years and found what I think was a good deal on a fixer up with good bones.  I was a mechanic for many years in my youth so nothing scares me and I plan to do most of the work my self fixing up our new little slice of home. Our Toyota Escaper is in great mechanical shape. Low miles, a good strong 22RE motor, and there isn't even any lifter noise like most 20-22r motors have (I have rebuilt about 3 of these motor my self). The back half is clean but god only knows if it is in good working order. It seems to all work on shore power and I think the power converter relay is not working because there is now power when on batters. So I am replacing that and the battery right off the bat.

 

But what else should I look for? How do work these pumps? Where does the poo go? I know you all had these questions with your first RV, right? Is there an RV'ing for Dummies book I can buy? Any bits of wisdom you could share with us would be gratefully appreciated.

 

thanks for all of you out there I have gathered much knowledge reading through these forums already. 

Edited June 1, 2016 by Will Hawkins

[Will Hawkins]

Hey it turns out there is a RV'ing for Dummies book.

https://www.amazon.com/RV-Vacations-Dummies-Shirley-Slater/dp/0470643781/ref=sr_1_2?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1464804199&sr=1-2&keywords=rv+for+dummies

 

I guess I could have googled that before I asked ;-P

 

Edited June 1, 2016 by Will Hawkins

[zero]

17 hours ago, Will Hawkins said:

a good strong 22RE motor, and there isn't even any lifter noise like most 20-22r motors have

I assume you realize this - but just in case - 22RE uses solid-lifters so if they make noise, it just means it needs a routine adjustment in most cases. Very different from an engine with "lifter noise" if it has self-adjusting hydraulic lifters.

[Will Hawkins]

Yes true indeed. thanks for the reminder it has been years sense I was in the guts of one of these things.  

[5Toyota]

having had 7 20 r to 22re I like a little  rocker arm clicking myself.. lets me know there is clearance and welcome to the group . guy asked me about my other toy 88 4wd said I see your clicking . I said no hydrolic on these .

[Derek up North]

If you've no lifter noise, I'd suggest you check the valve clearances. There should be a little 'clicking' to be heard. 

To compliment your 'RVing for Dummies' book, you can find a Pdf of 'How to keep your Toyota Pickup Alive'.

https://toyotachinook.files.wordpress.com/2011/12/how-to-keep-your-toyota-pickup-alive.pdf

 

[Berticus]

On 6/2/2016 at 4:44 AM, Derek up North said:

If you've no lifter noise, I'd suggest you check the valve clearances. There should be a little 'clicking' to be heard. 

To compliment your 'RVing for Dummies' book, you can find a Pdf of 'How to keep your Toyota Pickup Alive'.

https://toyotachinook.files.wordpress.com/2011/12/how-to-keep-your-toyota-pickup-alive.pdf

 

Very nice! TY Derek!

I just took my new toy to the mechanic that the previous owner had taken her to for the last 4 years. (as the clicking was bugging me)...
Here is how the conversation went;
Me: "Hello, I've heard you are familiar with this machine",
Mech: "Oh yes very familiar".
Me: "So what do I need to know, and where do I begin" (hands waving and spanning the the length from nose to tail.)
Mech looking a bit confused: "Nothing needs to be done to it, its a great running truck."
Me looking a bit shocked: "Not that I am using it as a daily driver, but your saying, I could use it as a daily driver?"
Mech: "Yes",
Me: "can I take her to the beach?" (implying a 150 mile round trip)
Mech sounding very confident: "Yes"
Me with a smile on my face. "Can I take her to southern Oregon for some desert camping?" (implying 600-900 mile round trip)
Mech smiling now himself: "Of course you can , this is a great running truck."

Then we proceeded to talk emissions and general BS about 20r's and so forth.

My 20r definitely makes noises that if my Smart car made I would be terrified of, but now that I have driven her a few hundred miles, (yup 3day beach trip as mentioned above)  She has that tic like a clock and runs smooth.

That PDF looks to be a good reference to have on my phone/computers.

Thank you
B

Edited June 3, 2016 by Berticus

[Will Hawkins]

Ok I should restate that I can hear normal lifter noises from the top of the motor. I meant to say no abnormal lifter noise. This little motor is running strong and healthy. Anyway thanks for all the great advice. I am starting to get the feeling that the RV community is a community of very open and helpful people.  Cant wait to hit the road.

[Derek up North]

2 hours ago, Berticus said:

She has that tic like a clock and runs smooth.

That PDF looks to be a good reference to have on my phone/computers.

Thank you
B

Not sure if I'd liken it to the tick of a clock, rather a 'well oiled sewing machine'.

Add a Pdf of the Factory Service Manual (FSM) and you'll be all set!

[Berticus]

8 hours ago, Derek up North said:

Not sure if I'd liken it to the tick of a clock, rather a 'well oiled sewing machine'.

HA! indeed.
 

 

8 hours ago, Derek up North said:

Add a Pdf of the Factory Service Manual (FSM) and you'll be all set!

 My rig came with the original owners manual, and this...



You have a URL for the Pdf of the Factory Service Manual?

B

[Derek up North]

Sorry, didn't notice the vintage of yours. Only know of '85, '88 & '93 FSMs in Pdf.

[Berticus]

3 minutes ago, Derek up North said:

Sorry, didn't notice the vintage of yours. Only know of '85, '88 & '93 FSMs in Pdf.

Yeah, it's cool

1977 won't be easy to find, let alone download for free.

B

[linda s]

Join the Toyota Chinook site on Yahoo. They have a 78 factory service manual in the files section

https://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/toyotachinook/info

Linda S

[Derek up North]

Though it's titled FSM, it isn't.

_78toyotafsm.pdf

[zero]

14 hours ago, Berticus said:

Yeah, it's cool

1977 won't be easy to find, let alone download for free.

B

I have the full 1977 and 1978 factory service manuals for engine, chassis, electrical, etc.  I also have the 1978 cab & chassis coach builder's manual.

[Wade]

My personal first thing to do is to make sure it has good rubber.  In stock sizes that is load range D not car tires as are what comes up when you put the year and pickup truck into tire rack.  (Some people put on different rims and can get by with a LT tire of a larger sized.)  Bottom line is to pay attention to the load range and PSI. Carrying that weight at stock tire sizes means 60PSI or so in a tire rated for it. My manual had something like 36psi listed.  Look at the tire specs and that is just plain crazy. Also, put in steel or pressure rated rubber valves at the same time. RV tires age out they rarely wear out. Learned the hard way that just because they aren't weather checked and have tread that looks like new doesn't mean they won't fail the first time you take a decent length trip!  Also need to pull the axles in the back and make sure the brake cylinders are good as you can't see them otherwise.  Of course check brake lines and hoses as well. The fronts are much easier to inspect as you only have to pull the tires off.  (You can check the date codes on the tires as it is possible that the tires are actually like new as pretty much everyone will tell you. I have yet to see one set where the date codes agreed with the "like new" represented by the seller.)  Personally I don't think it is wise to go much beyond 7 years.  My current truck they were 12 years old and really did look like new.

Keep water out, make sure propane lines don't leak, make sure your coach electric disconnects from the cab battery when stopped and hooks up again when engine is running and then it is just making sure the water system works and whatever other systems you need and you should be good to go.  Take a read through this site for things to check on the engine.

http://www.22reperformance.com/22RE_Performance_-_Installation_Parts.html

Was pretty enlightening for me at least and I am going to be going through my new toy starting this week to replace the heater hoses and vacuum lines and check the other systems on the engine.

 

Wade

[zero]

12 hours ago, Wade said:

My personal first thing to do is to make sure it has good rubber.  In stock sizes that is load range D not car tires as are what comes up when you put the year and pickup truck into tire rack.  (Some people put on different rims and can get by with a LT tire of a larger sized.)  Bottom line is to pay attention to the load range and PSI. Carrying that weight at stock tire sizes means 60PSI or so in a tire rated for it. My manual had something  like 36psi listed.  Look at the tire specs and that is just plain crazy.

Wade

Just how exactly is 36 PSI "crazy?"    I'll say running 60 PSI is "crazy" if we are talking about dual wheels and tires.  Toyota recommends 29 PSI in the front and rear tires at MAX load on a dually HD cab & chassis truck.  Not D-range tires either; they are C-range when the trucks were shipped new.  29 PSI in the rear puts the load capacity at 4800 lbs. and the rear axle is only rated for a max of 3750 lbs.   Single rear-wheel trucks came with D-range tires and with those - Toyota recommends at MAX load - 26 PSI in front and 65 PSI in the rear.

Tires are designed to perform as designed when run at their "loaded radius."  That is why Toyota gives those PSIG figures.  Running duals at 65 PSI puts those those tires way out of their "loaded radius."  No magic here.  Loaded-radius is determined by weight versus PSIG. 

A 185R-14C D-range tire run at 65 PSIG is designed to have 1,850 lbs. pushing down on it. With four tires that comes to 7,400 lbs. and that with a rear axle with a max rating of 3,750 lbs.?

Note that even a badly overloaded Toyota RV weighing 6500 lbs. has around 1000 lbs. per tire on a dually rear and around 1250 lbs. on each front tire.

[Derek up North]

So what pressures to you actually run in your 'non-Chinook' tires? 29psig?

[Derek up North]

Load Inflation Table - 185R14 - Load Range C & D

Inflation (Psig)....... 26 ... 29 ... 32 .. 35 .. 38 ... 41 ... 44 .. 47 ... 51 .. 54 .. 58 ... 62 .. 65

Singe (Lb)........... 1080 1147 1213 1279 1345 1400 1466 1532 1599 1665 1731 1786 1874

Dual (Lb)............. 1036 1102 1158 1223 1279 1334 1389 1455 1521 1588 1643 1709 1764

[zero]

2 hours ago, Derek up North said:

So what pressures to you actually run in your 'non-Chinook' tires? 29psig?

I run 45 PSIG in the rear of my Minicruiser. That is a lot more then is needed.  But that gives me redundancy if one goes flat.  At 45 PSIG, three tires supports 4300 lbs and that is a lot more then the max rating of the rear axle on a dually.  Toyota is absolutely correct with their 29 PSIG recommendation for proper tire ride and wear.  Toyota however, is NOT factoring in intentional truck abuse and severe overloading and owners that may rarely check tire pressures.   Seems Ford had to learn that lesson the hard way with the silly Ford Explorer and Firestone thing.

[Derek up North]

45psig? So only semi-'crazy' high.

[zero]

Yes, just like me. Note though I did not coin the use of the word "crazy" on this thread in this context.  Just responded to it with my own take on things.  I find it odd that many seem to have a lot of respect for Toyota, yet have no trust in some of the tech data they offer.

[zero]

On a sidenote - one thing (of many) that drove me nuts for years. In the great and ruined state of New York, there is an annual motor vehicle inspection required (they are militant about it).  So - we always had 5 vehicles legal on the road and often three more get swapped when winter comes.  So that is 8 vehicles I had to get inspected every year.  The guy at the inspection place I went to insisted the tires HAD to be inflated at whatever max pressure was on the tire or he'd fail me for inspection.  Is that legal?  NO.  But I got tired of fighting with the old b*st*rd, and would let him over-inflate all my tires and then I'd have to let the air back out after leaving. He was also 90 years old and grew up way before those "newfangled" radials came out. I think he cannot stand to see them squat (as designed) and tried in vain to make them sit like bias-ply tires.  Boy am I glad to be the heck out of NY. NO inspection here at all - ever.

[Wade]

Perhaps “crazy” was a bit hyperbolic;-)  Jdmaris certainly makes a reasonable argument and I certainly don’t mean to call him crazy.

Thank you to Derek up North for posting the psi charts! Clearly they show that jdmaris and Toyota are not “crazy” and perhaps I am;-)

Ford engineers used a perfectly reasonable argument as well to utilize the loaded radius in order to lower the CG by lowering tire pressure.  While this was a solidly reasonable argument on paper the real world produced quite different results.

When I look at the load charts I see the manufactures recommendations as being dangerously close to the limits of what the tire is designed for. Personally I feel much better with a substantial cushion. Too many opportunities for the real world to put significantly more load on the tire than what a perfectly balanced heavily loaded vehicle would exert  on paper.

As for the down sides to running a heavy duty tire with much higher load bearing capacity…  Certainly the loaded radius will be greater. Will this make the truck much more prone to roll over than it already is?  Might careful driving more than mitigate that risk in the real world?  As for the effects of road grip and handling it seems to me that the tires today are so much better than the tires I was buying in 1985 as to make that argument difficult at best.

For about 1,000,000 miles on various vehicles I have run much closer to max PSI than manufactures recommended PSI.  Have never inflated to the point of excess center wear. I have never experienced any sort of tire failure or handling issues from running tires near the sidewall max.  The only tire failures I have ever had were from under inflation.

The other reason I like to have plenty of cushion when it comes to load rating is because of sidewall flex. I simply feel more confident with the much more predictable behavior of the heavier sidewall. I am not a race car driver or even particularly adept at driving to the limits where lower pressure would be a significant benefit.  Perhaps if I drove differently I would have a different opinion.  From my perspective I am happy to live with a little harsher ride in order to get better mpg, more predictable handling, and more reserve for when things go wrong and the tire ends up experiencing heavier load than expected.

Wade

[Wade]

On another side note I don't actually know what PSI I will  run on my new toy. I suspect I will end up in the 60psi range as the max of the tires installed is 65PSI and that is where I typically go. Could see the possibility of dropping as low as 45 and apologize for using my Dodge experience to state the 60psi as something that needs to be done.  I am quite sure that I won't go as low as the owners manual and that is not to discount Toyota.  Toyota did not make those recommendations based on installing a 21' coach on that chassis.

I am more surprised that someone didn't jump on me for throwing away what appeared to be perfectly fine tires.  Is it "crazy" to refuse to run 12 year old tires?  I think running on old tires is even more crazy than running at 29psi

 

Wade

Edited June 5, 2016 by Wade

[Derek up North]

The way I understand it, the Load Inflation Tables are a standard set by the Tire Manufacturers Associations (American, European & Japanese). Tires must meet (or, of course, exceed) the loads for the various inflation pressures. That's all. They are not a recommendation to run those pressures for best wear, handling, comfort, fuel economy, noise and all the other considerations. That's up to the vehicle manufacturer (and the owner) to decide. For example, some might prefer a higher pressure for better fuel economy at the expense of comfort. Different strokes, etc.!

I really doubt that the increase in tire diameter from inflating to 65psig would increase the likelihood of a rollover. You'll raise the roll-center a lot more with your air springs inflated to the maximum!

Yes, I cringe when I hear people say that they run maximum tire rated psi because the tire-monkey told them to do so.

NYS annual inspections? You obviously weren't going to the right inspector. The guy I used to use in Plattsburg's inspection consisted of walking around the car, looking at the dash to read the odometer and filling out the paperwork. All for the inspection fee + a $5 tip.

[jjrbus]

Under inflated tires are subject to overheating and blow out, poor fuel economy.  Over inflated tires will wear out quicker, which for me is not an issue.   They will also have less tread on the ground increasing braking distance, the risk of hydroplaning and less lateral control in curves. 

So if clipping along at 55 mph getting a harsh noisy ride going into a curve on a rainy day and having to hit the brakes,  good luck.     Jim

[zero]

17 hours ago, Wade said:

 

Ford engineers used a perfectly reasonable argument as well to utilize the loaded radius in order to lower the CG by lowering tire pressure.  While this was a solidly reasonable argument on paper the real world produced quite different results.

If you are referring to the Ford Explorer-Firestone "roll-over" fiasco, I fail to see where Ford did anything wrong. Note that they equipped those "roll-over prone" SUVs with two makes of tires - both with the same PSIG recommendation.  No problems with the Goodyear tires. It only happened with the Firestone.  Even that does not prove Firestone did anything wrong (and that is what they claim). It just shows that the Firestone tires were worse at being abused by driver's who never checked tire pressures and drove their SUVs around corners like they were little sports cars.

[zero]

16 hours ago, Derek up North said:

 

NYS annual inspections? You obviously weren't going to the right inspector. The guy I used to use in Plattsburg's inspection consisted of walking around the car, looking at the dash to read the odometer and filling out the paperwork. All for the inspection fee + a $5 tip.

I had a New York inspector's license for years but that was in the 70s. It was easy then. I used to get some hot dates for passing girl's cars that were falling apart.  After model year 1995 - it gets very problematic.  If gas, the car or truck has to be connected to the NY State computer database and it checks for errors, or "lack of errors" and a recent database-erase. At least in NY, any local shop could do it IF licensed.  When I lived in New Jersey, we were all forced to go to huge state-run inspection station with waiting lines that seemed to go to the horizon.  My mom made head-line news with her brand new 1970 Chevy 307 Nova with Powerglide trans. It was her first car with an automatic and first new car ever (last one too).  She somehow got  her foot stuck between the brake and gas pedal and caused a 30 car accident on that line.

As I recall (my memory may be off) when I lived in the Northeast Kingdom of Vermont, we had inspections every six months.  I was told it was because of all the hippies bringing their rust-prone Subarus there.  I know I bought a 69 Ford truck and went to the inspection station in Newport Center (Canadian border) and they put a "stop sticker" on it, due to rust.  That means "stop."  They wouldn't even let me drive it back home.

[jjrbus]

I also should have mentioned over inflated tires are more prone to damage and tests are showing while under inflated tires reduce fuel mileage over inflated tires do not increase mileage.  Tests are all done on cars so not going to post any links.   With the aerodynamics of a brick it may help a motor home a bit.  But then there is that hitting the brakes on a wet curve thing! 

Since being given the load tables that Derek obtained from Hankook and Yokohama (I find it suspicious they are in English and not Japanese) I reduced my pressure from 65 to 55 and there is a very noticeable difference in road noise, vibration and ride comfort.        My Toy is not finished yet but I should be able to weight it this week to get a better idea of what pressure I should be running.   Jim

Edited June 6, 2016 by jjrbus

[Derek up North]

3 minutes ago, jjrbus said:

Since being given Dereks load tables ...

Not MY tables.

They were provided by both Hankook & Yokohama. This is the page from the JATMA (Japanese) Handbook.

 

[jjrbus]

3 hours ago, Derek up North said:

Not MY tables.

They were provided by both Hankook & Yokohama. This is the page from the JATMA (Japanese) Handbook.

 

Fixed!

[Wade]

7 hours ago, jdemaris said:

If you are referring to the Ford Explorer-Firestone "roll-over" fiasco, I fail to see where Ford did anything wrong. Note that they equipped those "roll-over prone" SUVs with two makes of tires - both with the same PSIG recommendation.  No problems with the Goodyear tires. It only happened with the Firestone.  Even that does not prove Firestone did anything wrong (and that is what they claim). It just shows that the Firestone tires were worse at being abused by driver's who never checked tire pressures and drove their SUVs around corners like they were little sports cars.

The way that I understand it, one group of Ford engineers raised the issue of roll over concerns and wanted suspension changes to mitigate the issue. Another group of Ford engineers said that the issue could be mitigated through lowering the air pressure.  Lowering the PSI won the argument although I would bet that it wasn't won on engineering merit;-)

I wish someone could explain to me how putting a larger contact patch on the ground would lower roll over risk.  (Kind of hard for me to imagine getting a vehicle to roll over on an ice rink;-)  In any case, the lower PSI reduced fuel economy so Ford asked Firestone to make the tire lighter to offset that. Firestone did and unfortunately the lighter tire did not hold up to real world use.

Frankly I think there is plenty of blame to go around and unfortunately drivers had a large portion and paid the stiffest price. However, if the first group of Ford engineers would have won the argument we wouldn't be having this discussion. Also, if Firestone's design would have been as robust as Goodyer's we likely wouldn't be discussing this. 

I am glad my off the cuff, and partially wrong, response  started this discussion as I think proper inflation as well as tire strength (age in the case of RV's) are critical issues for RV owners to understand.  Big boxes with high centers of gravity running near or above the weight limits of the chassis are ripe for catastrophic failure. 

Wade

[linda s]

My Ford Explorer came with the Firestone tires and I never changed them. Just kept them at close to full pressure. They were darn good tires. Outlasted many other tires I've used in the past and never any problems. Never came close to flipping or felt any handling problems and I have been known to drive like an idiot at times.

Linda S

[WME]

Often a "click: is an exhaust leak. With a COLD engine start it and feel around the exhaust and down pipe for a leak. You have about 30 seconds before things warm up too much.

20 Rs have a bad habit of leaking exhaust gaskets.