zero Posted January 26, 2016 Share Posted January 26, 2016 Yes, that is a W50. Nice bonus that it has the shifter. I found out the hard way that those shifters - by themselves are very hard to find. Junkyards remove them and I guess - just throw them out. Also - all W50s are basically the same but with a few subtle variations. One such variation is the shifter. This too I found out the hard way. So if the shifter is missing and you actually find one somewhere - it may not fit. I think those W50s - like in that photo - are great units and over-engineered for a little Toyota. They were likely discontinued by Aisin because they were not available for 4WD trucks. Only 2WD. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MischaT Posted January 26, 2016 Author Share Posted January 26, 2016 Thanks Linda! I actually saw that one in my search and skipped over it because I read it wrong. I read that it was from a 4x4, but now that I read closer it says that he exchanged the engine for a 4x4. Helps to pay close attention! Also thanks to everyone for the lively debate here. It has been very helpful! I'm picking up a W50 today from the junkyard for $250 off a 77 SR5 Hilux. Guy says it comes from an original owner who was a transmission mechanic and had it up until he got hit. Comes with the shifter. I need to get it in now and I'm definitely going to keep in mind changing the rear end to 4.56 later on. So here's the next question... Does the engine need to come out in order to swap the transmission or is it a straight swap? I ask because if they are going to take out the engine I want to reseal the oil pan for leaks when they do. I'm also going to get a new clutch kit... Any recommendations? Anything else to keep in mind when I have them do the swap? Thanks! Mischa Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
payaso del mar Posted January 26, 2016 Share Posted January 26, 2016 yeah. 1. change the engine rear main seal while you have trans out, and maybe some of the trans seals....they are approaching 40 years old. if you do pull the engine, definitely do the front main seal unless it's very recent. 2. have flywheel machined if needed to be sure your clutch has the smoothest possible surface to bite against. this helps both with bite and with engagement smoothness. 3. be sure your clutch kit has all 3 parts (pressure plate, clutch disc, throwout bearing)....I've seen people not do the TO bearing and have to pull it again later when that failed. 4. also be sure new trans is filled with oil before you drive vehicle....seems stupid and basic, but I know someone who didn't, on his FIRST replacement trans....he remembered after he had to swap the trans out again! 5. any other parts you want to pick up from that similar-vintage SR5 now that you've found it? dash, console, gauge panel, etc???? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zero Posted January 26, 2016 Share Posted January 26, 2016 So here's the next question... Does the engine need to come out in order to swap the transmission or is it a straight swap? Thanks! Mischa No, engine does not come out just to remove the trans. Make sure when put in a new pilot bearing at the engine of the crankshaft before swapping in the new trans. I suggest while you have the new bearing in your hand - make sure it fits onto the pilot stub on the end of the pilot shaft on the new trans you are getting. It is a common spot to get banged around or rusted. Just needs to be a slip fit. NOT a press fit. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
5Toyota Posted January 27, 2016 Share Posted January 27, 2016 the w 50 5 speed was also used in cars I had a corona and a celica with a 20R and a w50 5 speed Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Maineah Posted January 27, 2016 Share Posted January 27, 2016 Yeah it did the run was about 7 years it was used in a lot of stuff and with different ratios something to consider I never cared about the model numbers (information overload) just fixed them they did have bearing issue as did almost all of the Japanese transmission of that vintage. Here by the way is the full article on removable bell housing WXX be advised it is Australian so some of the info is N/A. to the US. http://users.tpg.com.au/users/loats/technical/ma61/gearboxes.html Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zero Posted January 27, 2016 Share Posted January 27, 2016 I never cared about the model numbers (information overload) just fixed them they did have bearing issue Why badmouth a specific model transmission when you don't even know what it is? And again - what bearing issue? I was around many a truck and car with those 5 speeds. On a reference scale as compared to GMs and Fords of the time, the Toyotas seemed indestructible. My friend's brand new Corona with that 5 speed got beat on by all of us, back in the day. He was the only kid to have a new car but we all made fun of him because it was Japanese. We all took turns trying to break it. Holding the gas to the floor, popping the clutch with a car-load of kids and beer, etc. Word got around after awhile that this Toyota Corona was just plain amazing. One day - a local guy with a 55 Chevy, 4 speed M21 Muncie, 4.11 rear and 265 V8 challenged my friend for a race. It was meant as a joke but they had the 1/4 drag and that little Toyota won. That car never died- mechanically. It just got in so many accidents - at some point it got scrapped. Oddly - the W50 trans (the only trans I mentioned as a bolt-in swap for a Chinook) came with some larger bearings back mid-70s. By the early 80s - the output bearing was smaller. Went from 72 mm down to 59 mm. Since there is also the bronze driveshaft bushing right next to it for added support - seems it didn't matter. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zero Posted January 27, 2016 Share Posted January 27, 2016 I'm picking up a W50 today from the junkyard for $250 off a 77 SR5 Hilux. Guy says it comes from an original owner who was a transmission mechanic and had it up until he got hit. Comes with the shifter. I need to get it in now and I'm definitely going to keep in mind changing the rear end to 4.56 later on. . I'm also going to get a new clutch kit... Anything else to keep in mind when I have them do the swap? Thanks! Mischa A few suggestions when installing a used W50 into your Toyota. #1 make sure the clutch disk and pilot bearing both slide onto the front the transmission shaft easily. Any decent mechanic should know this - but who knows? If you are going to buy a new clutch anyway - a new pilot bearing is must. Note that the pilot bearing is often a separate item and does not come in all clutch kits. The pilot bearing installs in the end of the engine's crankshaft but is, in a way, part of the transmission since it is required for the trans input shaft to get proper support. Here are some photos. The stub on the end of the transmission often gets rusty or banged up if the trans has sat not-installed for a while. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zero Posted January 27, 2016 Share Posted January 27, 2016 Next suggestion. Make sure you wind up with the correct speedometer gears. There is a plastic driven gear and a steel drive gear. Drive gear is inside the trans and you don't have to mess with it. It is made to work with three different driven gears. An 18, 19, or 20 tooth gear. It easily is removed from the outside. A Toyota with a 4.11 or 4.10 rear and standard 14" tires uses a 19 tooth gear. So if the W50 you have has something different - use the gear from your old four-speed trans. It will fit. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zero Posted January 27, 2016 Share Posted January 27, 2016 Next suggestion. Put in a new rear seal and verify the bronze bushing in the back is OK. Note that if the factory parts are still there - there is a steel mud guard, a felt dust seal with a steel cage, and then the oil-seal underneath. I've seen many of those parts get removed and thrown out. I prefer to reuse them when possible. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zero Posted January 27, 2016 Share Posted January 27, 2016 For ID purposes - here is what the trans insides and housings look like. Aluminum removable bell-housing marked for 18R and 20R engines. Then a cast-iron front trans housing. Then an aluminum rear housing. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Maineah Posted January 28, 2016 Share Posted January 28, 2016 Boy you sure like to argue good thing you have a good internet connection. I learn by doing not by remembering numbers. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
5Toyota Posted January 28, 2016 Share Posted January 28, 2016 they did have a front cluster bearing problem. I had an early feb 1977 corona W50 5 speed for 15 years and the front cluster bearing which was a ball bearing. failed. I was told by a Toyota dealer trans tech that was problem and the fix was a stronger roller bearing. the same bearing ball style worked ok in the 4 speed. less thrust on a shorter shaft but would fail in the 5 speed. and another failure point was the main shift rod. the fork end was spot welded on. and the end would brake off and fall down in the bottom of the trans. I installed the upgraded shift rod after mine broke off . Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zero Posted January 28, 2016 Share Posted January 28, 2016 Boy you sure like to argue good thing you have a good internet connection. I learn by doing not by remembering numbers. I do both. If I was "just remembering numbers" I wouldn't have the trans apart on my bench, as in the photos - would I? I remind you - that is was you - not I - that was making statements about a transmission I knew nothing about. I also remind you it was me that posted my own photos from my own shop, while you posted Internet photos from another country. Yet you refer to MY "good Internet connection?" I've got three four-speeds from 77 and 78 Toyota Chinooks sitting here in my shop. Also have two W50s here. I don't see you posting any first-hand photos. I do admit that using specific model numbers for something like a transmission certainly can aid a technical conversation. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zero Posted January 28, 2016 Share Posted January 28, 2016 they did have a front cluster bearing problem. I had an early feb 1977 corona W50 5 speed for 15 years and the front cluster bearing which was a ball bearing. failed. I was told by a Toyota dealer trans tech that was problem and the fix was a stronger roller bearing. the same bearing ball style worked ok in the 4 speed. less thrust on a shorter shaft but would fail in the 5 speed. and another failure point was the main shift rod. the fork end was spot welded on. and the end would brake off and fall down in the bottom of the trans. I installed the upgraded shift rod after mine broke off . I spoke to you by phone a few years ago. Unless I misunderstood you - I thought you said you had a counter-bearing pocket-bearng fail in an early 5 speed. Not counter-shaft bearing. The roller-bearing that sits in a pocket in the input shaft and rides against the output shaft. It only sees movement in 1st, 2nd, 3rd, and 5th. In 4th the two shafts are locked together and the bearing does nothing. If you are saying it was an outboard countershaft bearing -all the W50s use large ball-bearings. No rollers. I have not seen all the W50s apart. All the ones I've worked on are 1978 or newer. No welds on any of the shifter-shafts. A few added comments NOT directed towards you 5Toyota. Other then me - so far -you are the only person on this thread that has knows what a W50 is and has worked on one. Yet others here like Mr.Maine keep making blanket statements about a transmission they know nothing about. And then, in a back-handed way try to ridicule me because I use facts and photos of actual transmissions I have worked on? Note -NOT random, generic Internet photos. I don't get it. Again - a poster asked about what Toyota trans was a direct swap for his L series four-speed and I told him. I did so with a specific model #. Hey Mr. Maine - I have done two of these swaps. How many have you done? Here are some photos of the shifter-shafts and the bearings in the 1978 W50 that is on my bench right now. This one came from a 1978 pickup truck. NO spot-welds on any shifter shafts and no roller or needle bearings on the countershaft. The only photo that I do not have is of the little pocket roller bearing in-between the input and output shaft. Thus the generic W50 parts diagram. Some of the transmissions back in the 70s used a set of roller needles with no cage. This W50 uses a caged roller bearing. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Maineah Posted January 28, 2016 Share Posted January 28, 2016 You may want to look at your pictures again one that you posted came from the very site I posted from Australia maybe the Australians copied yours? Good ideal to take pictures makes it easier to put back together doesn't it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zero Posted January 28, 2016 Share Posted January 28, 2016 You may want to look at your pictures again one that you posted came from the very site I posted from Australia maybe the Australians copied yours? Good ideal to take pictures makes it easier to put back together doesn't it. Good Lord - give me a break? Are we back in grammar school? I posted many annotated photos of a W50, sitting here on my workbench. And yes - I also posted a few generic photos and diagrams to help the incipient posted here to ID the trans he is buying. So you want to whine about a the few generic photos and no mentioned of the detailed photos I took? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zero Posted January 28, 2016 Share Posted January 28, 2016 another failure point was the main shift rod. the fork end was spot welded on. and the end would brake off and fall down in the bottom of the trans. I installed the upgraded shift rod after mine broke off . I see what you are referring to now. I've never seen one that wasn't beefed up. I suppose all the early weak ones broke and got beefed up long ago and later ones got upgraded somehow. Upon closer inspection of this 1978 trans on my bench right now - I can see where it has already been broken and welded to make it stronger. If you look at the factory photo in the Toyota W50 repair manual - I see no welds. So I guess I have no idea on what was supposed to hold that main shift fork to that rail when they first came out. A pin maybe? I know on the other end where the shifter attaches - there is just one roll-pin. Actually - to be technical - it's a split-pin. It is a good thing you mentioned it. In my case, I never, ever, install any used transmission without tearing it apart and checking all over. Not unless it came from a running vehicle I got to try out before yanking the trans. But in the case of someone on this forum buying a used trans? Seems it's a good idea to yank off the tailshaft and check that shifter fork. It is easy to do and does not mean tearing apart the whole trans. Yank the tailshaft -check that fork and put in a new seal with a press instead of a hammer. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zero Posted January 28, 2016 Share Posted January 28, 2016 If anybody needs to ID a W50 for sure - here are some close-up photos of the 1978 I just finished putting back together. Kind of a disappointment, in a way. Spent near two days, off and on. Taking it all apart and checking everything inside. I could not find a single part that needed replacing. So, in a way I feel like I did not accomplish anything - but at least now - I know for sure, what I have. I DID put in new gaskets and seals. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MischaT Posted January 29, 2016 Author Share Posted January 29, 2016 The saga continues... Just got a call from the shop saying it's the "wrong transmission" that its too short. I got it from a 77 SR5... Is that not the W50? It seemed like from all the posts here that it should bolt right in. Any additional help is much appreciated. The shop has the original 4spd taken out already and they are telling me I have to find the "right" transmission. They are waiting on me to tell them what I want to do about it all. Mischa Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
linda s Posted January 29, 2016 Share Posted January 29, 2016 The saga continues... Just got a call from the shop saying it's the "wrong transmission" that its too short. I got it from a 77 SR5... Is that not the W50? It seemed like from all the posts here that it should bolt right in. Any additional help is much appreciated. The shop has the original 4spd taken out already and they are telling me I have to find the "right" transmission. They are waiting on me to tell them what I want to do about it all. Mischa Well go to the shop and take some pictures of the one that came out from every angle and post them. I'm sure JD will know what it is Linda S Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zero Posted January 29, 2016 Share Posted January 29, 2016 I got it from a 77 SR5... Is that not the W50? It seemed like from all the posts here that it should bolt right in. Any additional help is much appreciated. The shop has the original 4spd taken out already and they are telling me I have to find the "right" transmission. They are waiting on me to tell them what I want to do about it all. Mischa Trans is from an SR5 truck and not an SR5 Corolla or something, correct? I already gave you the exact length. All the transmissions in the trucks up to the mid-80s are 20.8" long, regardless if a four speed or a five speed. Then they all became longer at 25.5" long. So - what do you have now? Either it is 20.8" (correct length) or it is 25.5" (too new and too long) or you got some trans that did not come from a Toyota pickup truck. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MischaT Posted January 29, 2016 Author Share Posted January 29, 2016 Yes from an SR5 truck. I saw it at the junkyard before he pulled it. I'll get measurements and get back to you... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MischaT Posted January 29, 2016 Author Share Posted January 29, 2016 Something is off. Ill have to wait until I get back in to town Monday to figure it out. Talk to the guy and says there is no match up at all. It's too short and the bolt pattern is completely different. Said I have the wrong clutch too. That doesn't match up either and the bolt pattern in different. Unfortunately I can't get measurements or pictures until Monday but when I do I'll post them and hopefully figure out what seems to be majorly amiss here. Mischa Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Maineah Posted January 30, 2016 Share Posted January 30, 2016 Some where along the line there was some dimension changes the mounts were the same but the trans was shorter. Its only been 30+ years so the details are foggy. If the case is aluminum it is different that much I do remember.The early transmission had a removal bell housing also that may explain the bolt pattern. Sounds like a good time to repair the 4 spd while its out and put it back in. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zero Posted January 30, 2016 Share Posted January 30, 2016 Something is off. Ill have to wait until I get back in to town Monday to figure it out. Talk to the guy and says there is no match up at all. It's too short and the bolt pattern is completely different. Said I have the wrong clutch too. That doesn't match up either and the bolt pattern in different. Unfortunately I can't get measurements or pictures until Monday but when I do I'll post them and hopefully figure out what seems to be majorly amiss here. Mischa Did someone take the bell-housing off the transmission you just bought? If the bell-housing is off, it would look too short and the front bolt pattern that you see won't match anything. Maybe your mechanic does not realize this? There is no shorter transmission from any Toyota truck. Note that you cannot remove that 5 speed from the truck unless you remove the trans and the bellhousing as one unit. Once out - then the bellousing can be removed. You said you saw it get pulled. Did someone remove the bellhousing? That housing is what has the proper bolt pattern to match your engine and will have "18R" and "20R" stamped right on it to indicate it fits an 18R or 20R engine. Housing is 6" deep. Transmission itself is 20.8" long. So the entire unit -trans and housing, ready to bolt to your engine is 26.8" long. Exactly what the four-speed and housing is you removed. As to the clutch? Exactly the same for a four speed or five speed. In fact, Toyota uses the same clutch disk from 1972 all the way up to 1995 for four-cylinder, 2WD trucks. 8 7/8" diameter on a transmission shaft 1 1/8" diameter with 21 splines. If even your clutch does not fit- what the heck did you buy? If you really get stuck - I have an extra four speed from a 1977 Chinook. Not eager to sell it but also will likely never use it. You'd better find out what i going on first before you buy anything else. The clutch not fitting really has me wondering. Clutch disk outer diameter gets a little bigger after 1995 - but the 1 1/8", 21 spline hole in the disk stays the same from 1972 up through the 2000s. I have the four-speed in this photo, as an extra. But - it is the exact same length as a W50 five-speed. Note that the four-speed also has a removable bell-housing. In fact - same one the W50 uses as I recall. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zero Posted January 30, 2016 Share Posted January 30, 2016 Here is the OEM Chinook 4 speed next to the W50 5 speed. I have the both here in my shop if you have any more questions. Same lengths. same bellhousings marked 18R and 20R, and both use same clutches. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
5Toyota Posted January 30, 2016 Share Posted January 30, 2016 the shift rod had no pin on that end. the hole in the fork goes all the way thru. the rod was just stuck in and had a light tack spot weld on the outer end. a way too light and quick spot weld. I was told by my friend who was the Toyota dealer trans man that this was a big problem. I never thought of welding mine I just bought the Toyota re engineered part which had a lot better welding on it. never had that happen again. that one in your pict has been much reinforced. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zero Posted February 2, 2016 Share Posted February 2, 2016 I dragged an L43 four-speed from a 77 Chinook out of my barn and stuck it right next to the 1978 W50 five-speed. Hopefully these photos dispel any myths about one trans being longer then the other or clutch splines not being the same. Note I took a brand new clutch disk and stuck it on both. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MischaT Posted February 2, 2016 Author Share Posted February 2, 2016 So here are the pictures. I still can't figure out what the guy was talking about when he called me and said that it was a completely different bolt pattern and a different length. He said the same thing about the clutch and I checked that too and it was right. I think he was trying to make a point that the transmission is different then the one he pulled (Obviously! I told him that many times!!) As you can see from the pictures these are without a doubt a L43 and a W50. They are the same length. The only thing that I question just by looking at it is still if the shifter comes out at the same place. It looks like there is an inch or two difference visually, but we will see when it goes in. After a long debate I convinced the guy that the bolt patterns are the same (is this not obvious?) and that it should bolt right in! His response was "f$%k it, I'll try it. It's on you if it doesn't fit though." We shall find out in the next few days. Thank you all for the help! Mischa Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zero Posted February 2, 2016 Share Posted February 2, 2016 From what has gone on so far, I wouldn't trust that shop to do anything. The shifter hole will be off slightly. Just means trimming the hole a bit to fit. Also might have to fool around a little with the rear transmission mount. I don't remember anymore but whatever it was - it wasn't any big deal. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zero Posted February 2, 2016 Share Posted February 2, 2016 The speedometer cable will also need to reach a little further. Mine worked as it was but it was tight. I might be that Toyota used a slightly longer cable when the W50 was factory installed. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MischaT Posted February 5, 2016 Author Share Posted February 5, 2016 Yeah, he got it in and he said the cross member and the driveline are "too short" and that the shifter doesn't come through the hole right. Problem #1: I see several comments about adjusting the rear transmission mount to get it to line up with the cross member. What does this entail? Do I need a welder? Problem #2: This one I can't figure out. The L43 and the W50 are without a doubt exactly the same length. Why would the driveline be too short? Is it possible that the engine has shifted forward for some reason and now its not matching up? What else could this possibly be? Problem #3: Cut a hole a few inches back. No big deal. This guy at the shop is a total idiot and I wish I didn't have to deal with him, but unfortunately I can't really drive my camper away at this point and go somewhere else. So I kinda have to figure all this out for him since he seems completely unable to troubleshoot. Once again... any input is greatly appreciated. -Mischa Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MischaT Posted February 5, 2016 Author Share Posted February 5, 2016 Here are some pictures. I went there today and ended up getting into a bit of a debate with the mechanic and he said that I need to take my vehichle elsewhere... So now I am back to the drawing board of finding someone who can finish up the work and now having to have it towed to the next place... Huge headache... This guy was a total clown. So here's where he says that the driveline is "too short." You can see in the first picture where the yolk connects with the output shaft of the W50. In the second picture you can see further back on the driveshaft where what I believe he is claiming that the driveshaft is too short (a half an inch?) where it is supposed to connect up flush on the left side of the photo. Like I said the transmissions measured out to be EXACTLY the same length, so I can't figure out whats up here. He claims if I drive it like that the bearing with blow. Here's some (sorry, not so great) pictures of where the transmission mount is supposed to meet up with the crossmember. (the first one is upsidedown for some reason) Can anyone give me more information about how to go about fabricating this to fit correctly? Would it help to go get the crossmember from the Hilux that the W50 came out of and use that one instead? are we talking about moving the crossmember or changing the location where it bolts to the mount? Here's the photo of the shifter hole. I need to get in there and adjust the hole so that it can come out in the correct location. I was hoping a shop could do this cause I don't have much for tools where I am right now... but I suppose if I needed to I could poke a bunch of holes with a drill and then do a lot of tedious work with a bastard file. So now I've got to find a new shop and I'd love to have a bit more information about exactly what they need to do before I find one since I don't want to get caught up with another mechanic like this last one. Thanks, Mischa Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zero Posted February 6, 2016 Share Posted February 6, 2016 I could not answer you yesterday. This forum was not working all day. At least not from my part of the country. Main webpage worked but when I clicked on the forum, nothing would happen. But - it is working now. RE that shifter-hole. Ten minute job with the right tools. Without the right tools - a drill and chisel will do it. it's just sheet-metal. A Sawzall with a fine-tooth metal cutting blade works fine. So does a hand-held circular saw with a metal-cutting blade but the latter only works with a square or rectangle hole. RE that rear trans mount. You don't even have the rubber mount installed on the trans so the pictures don't help. Did you buy a new rubber mount or get the old one that was on the W50? That $10 rubber mount is different for the W50 than it is for the L43. Less then $10 at Rock Auto. RE the driveshaft support-bearing mount??? I have no idea what this "mechanic" did. #1 the transmissions are the exact same length. #2 the driveshaft does not bolt tight to the trans. It attaches with a slip-yoke on splines so there is some room for play, fore and aft. Is that support bearing new - and if so is it the correct one and was it installed correctly? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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