Jump to content

Went Through 3 Throwout Bearings In 1 Month/ 2003 Dodge Ram 2500


Recommended Posts

My throw out bearing went in my 2003 Dodge Ram 2500 manual long bed 2 wheel drive. I had it replaced by a friend and that one went in the next 200 miles. I then replaced it with another and that one went in 40 miles. Does anyone have any idea why this is happening? It is killing me financially!

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I don't know if any of this will be helpful (but that has never stopped anyone before). I'm sure if I say something stupid, someone will certainly correct me.

What you don't indicate is if you replaced everything. You said the throw out bearing failed and you replaced it. How about the clutch disc and pressure plate? New or rebuilt pressure plate? 2003 so I'm guessing hydraulic actuator? Main cause of failure is age. Other is it is spinning under load more than it likes. If, say you replaced the pressure plate with a rebuilt and one of the arms was a bit off and causing rotation of the bearing or maybe the slave cylinder is not retracting fully or maladjusted.

2 and I might say you got a bad bearing. 3 there something else is causing the failure.

Interesting read on Dodge Truck clutches

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I don't know if any of this will be helpful (but that has never stopped anyone before). I'm sure if I say something stupid, someone will certainly correct me.

What you don't indicate is if you replaced everything. You said the throw out bearing failed and you replaced it. How about the clutch disc and pressure plate? New or rebuilt pressure plate? 2003 so I'm guessing hydraulic actuator? Main cause of failure is age. Other is it is spinning under load more than it likes. If, say you replaced the pressure plate with a rebuilt and one of the arms was a bit off and causing rotation of the bearing or maybe the slave cylinder is not retracting fully or maladjusted.

2 and I might say you got a bad bearing. 3 there something else is causing the failure.

Interesting read on Dodge Truck clutches

Well Don,

I understand why you would need to know this so it is my mistake. I am pulling a 13k Lb 5th wheel across the country. I bought the truck at a dealership a year ago and they replaced the tranny with a Junk Yard tranny. almost 1 year later the throw out bearing went. 3 weeks ago myself and a friend put in a high performance clutch kit with a new throwout bearing and all. That throwout bearing went in 2 weeks. Friday night we ripped the tranny apart again and put in a new throwout bearing. None of these parts were OEM which may have been a mistake. 40 miles after putting the new bearing in it went again. Im going broke here and dont know what to do. I cannot seem to find a Dodge Mechanics forum. Do you have a link? I really appreciate your help Don. Any ideas?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I think your going to have to join a Dodge forum. I did a search and I can't find anything out about repeat failures.

Linda S

Thanks Linda, I cant seem to find a good Dodge forum to join.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

The last closest thing I had was my 97 Jeep. Typically brand agnostic but last two trucks have been Fords. Don't really know which forum but a search yielded a bunch of them. Dodge Talk seemed to have a pretty active thing going and is nicely segmented into year and generation ranges. Perhaps a more Dodge centric member might have other suggestions.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Is the fork that pushes the bearing the wrong one by chance or is the bearing the kind that needs a grease hose on it so it can be greased?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

my guess is your tob's are in constant contact with the pressure plate - those bearings are not designed to do that. the adjustment is critical but not complicated, unless your throwout arm is warped or such.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Does it fit the trannie input shaft correctly?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

My throw out bearing went in my 2003 Dodge Ram 2500 manual long bed 2 wheel drive. I had it replaced by a friend and that one went in the next 200 miles. I then replaced it with another and that one went in 40 miles. Does anyone have any idea why this is happening? It is killing me financially!

Doubt it matters if it's a Dodge, Toyota, John Deere, etc. Throw-out bearing is only supposed to turn when the clutch is disengaged. It does NOTHING otherwise. If there is no clearance between the bearing and pressure-plate when your foot is NOT on the clutch pedal - it will see as much use in one day of driving as it would normally get in a full year. The "200 miles" you mention is not the issue. More of the issue is how long was that bearing turning during those 200 miles? Somebody is doing something wrong.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Doubt it matters if it's a Dodge, Toyota, John Deere, etc. Throw-out bearing is only supposed to turn when the clutch is disengaged. It does NOTHING otherwise. If there is no clearance between the bearing and pressure-plate when your foot is NOT on the clutch pedal - it will see as much use in one day of driving as it would normally get in a full year. The "200 miles" you mention is not the issue. More of the issue is how long was that bearing turning during those 200 miles? Somebody is doing something wrong.

As a old timer, I thought this too. Then I read this. Any counter thoughts?

"The slave cylinder has a spring in behind the piston body pushing from the housing or casting. It pushes the fork forward and applies a preload to the bearing. The bearing turns continuously. The hydraulic system is at ZERO PSI with your foot off of the pedal. When you push on the pedal, the master cylinder closes a valve (incoming fluid supply) and creates pressure, the slave cylinder pushes forward and we get release travel.

To demonstrate on you own, next time someone has a trans out (with bellhousing if NV4500) install the bearing and fork then install only the slave cylinder from an old system, no fluid, no line, no master, just the slv cyl bolted up.

Now, try to push the bearing back in to its mid point of the travel range, feel the resistance, thats the preload.

Or with the clutch and trans installed, take a used slv cyl (retaining straps already snapped) and try to install it. You have to push it into position and hold it while you bolt it up. Why, its not the fluid, that peacefully just changed location and went to the reservoir. You're compressing the spring inside the slv cyl.

Simpler demonstration, find an internal slave cylinder from a Ranger or 96- Chevy C/K series. Make sure it doesn't have any fluid in it and leave the bleed screw open. Now compress the bearing back against the housing, feel the spring? There is a spring behind the bearing that applies a constant preload to the system.

Bearing design used to REQUIRE freeplay. Freeplay was an actual air gap between the bearing face and the levers or later fingers that allowed the bearing to NOT TURN with your foot off of the pedal. The bearing of choice was a thrust bearing or aka step shell by some folks. Great for a direct inline with the input shaft load, but at high RPM the ball bearing actually want to fling out and cause wear internally. The current bearing design of choice is called angular contact. The load thru the ball is at about a 45 deg angle, so it does just fine with thrust or radial loads. Combine angular contact with self aligning and actuate with a hydraulic system and that is todays clutch release system."

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Bearing design used to REQUIRE freeplay. Freeplay was an actual air gap between the bearing face and the levers or later fingers that allowed the bearing to NOT TURN with your foot off of the pedal.

Yes, and as far as I know, they still DO require free-play. All that has changed is now - most (but not all) hydraulic clutch linkage systems - the system is self-adjusting until the clutch disk wears to a point. Then - all free play is lost, and soon the clutch is partially disengaged all the time and slips so bad it must be fixed.

I don't know where you are getting your info. I've worked on a lot of newer cars and trucks with hydraulic systems and they all required free-play. Designing a system with a sealed (non-system lubed) bearing that turns all the time would be kind of absurd. If you have any info on ANY factory built system that has a "no free play" design for a manual clutch - please post. I'd like to see it. Only one I'm privy too is the John Deere system for PTOs on farm tractors. They however, use a "throw-in" bearing that only gets used with the clutch engaged and has lots of free play when NOT in use.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I think I would be looking at the sleeve on the transmission that the bearing assembly slides on. When you say it only went 400 miles what happened to the bearing? Most newer vehicles bearings ride on the clutch cover zero pressure but they spin this all took place when they got rid of the adjuster and the return spring. My 2011 Tacoma runs right on the cover so did my 97 Tacoma the first clutch assembly on that one lasted 208,000 miles.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Yes, and as far as I know, they still DO require free-play. All that has changed is now - most (but not all) hydraulic clutch linkage systems - the system is self-adjusting until the clutch disk wears to a point. Then - all free play is lost, and soon the clutch is partially disengaged all the time and slips so bad it must be fixed.

I don't know where you are getting your info. I've worked on a lot of newer cars and trucks with hydraulic systems and they all required free-play. Designing a system with a sealed (non-system lubed) bearing that turns all the time would be kind of absurd. If you have any info on ANY factory built system that has a "no free play" design for a manual clutch - please post. I'd like to see it. Only one I'm privy too is the John Deere system for PTOs on farm tractors. They however, use a "throw-in" bearing that only gets used with the clutch engaged and has lots of free play when NOT in use.

In my first reply I had the link to a discussion regarding throw out bearings on a Dodge truck. I pointed out that it was a very interesting discussion on the subject. Check it out. Like I said, I thought the same thing. Problem is that in attempting to dismiss his statement, much of the kinds of documentation I would typically trust, verifies what he is saying. Schaeffler has a clutch diagnostic guide that discusses the various types of clutch components which also states "Angular-contact bearings, found in hydraulic release systems and self-adjusting cable systems, are in constant contact with the diaphragm spring fingers". So this is from the manufacturer of aftermarket parts rather than some web Dodge truck forum I know nothing of. I don't really have any skin in this game and not looking for an argument as I got my hands full this week. A quick search would indicate that there are such types out there. I don't know why that would be hard to believe. There are plenty of bearings in a vehicle that see constant duty under full load so why not such a bearing under partial load. Take the front wheel bearing on the hub of say my son's old Mustang. Sealed wheel bearing hub always under the load of weight and when moving. So I do not find the idea unimaginable.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

There are plenty of bearings in a vehicle that see constant duty under full load so why not such a bearing under partial load. Take the front wheel bearing on the hub of say my son's old Mustang. Sealed wheel bearing hub always under the load of weight and when moving. So I do not find the idea unimaginable.

"Angular contact bearing" isn't anything new. Just a bearing designed to take radial and thrust load - like an adjustable Timken cup and cone setup. That's what your son's Mustang has for front wheel bearings that you mention. Not sure what advantage that is supposed to offer as a clutch release bearing. None that I know of over a thrust bearing. In the case of the Mustang though, or the front wheel hubs on a Toyota - not what I'd called "sealed" in that context. To me, the connotation of "sealed" means it's lubed once, sealed, and no way to relube. Like a conventional clutch release bearing, a rear wheel bearing on a Toyota semi-floater 5 lug rear axle, etc. Many of the new clutches with hydraulic actuators run at near zero clearance and self-adjust. The bearing might spin a bit but at a zero pressure situation, I doubt at full engine speed. On the Mustang you mention - the bearings are not "rubbing" against something that will wear out. Seems to me such a situation with a clutch would eventually wear off the surface areas of the diaphram spring-fingers on the clutch pressure-plate. Having a bearing pushing against them won't wear them out. Nor will not turning with them. But just sort of hanging there in limbo rubbing against them would wear off the fingers - which I have seen happen many times in faulty setups. If someone HAS designed such a setup - I'd like to see the actual specs on it. Sounds like a poor one to me. And yes, I've read that many ponderings and Web-gossip columns on the subject including even one guy claiming it's all analogous to a front disk brake setup. That because it too has constant contact. I guess that guy never heard of the modern "low drag" disk brakes?

In the case of the poster here? I'd like to hear exactly what is really wearing out. Bearing whining? Clutch fingers wearing off? Maybe someone is "barking up the wrong tree" and the issue is the pilot bearing? Or a complete clutch set was used with mis-matched components?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Well on the 2001 Mustang, the front wheel bearing assembly is not like the Toyota and that was the point. It is a bolt in hub with sealed bearings. When it started making noise, I thought I could take it apart like any "normal" car. That was the situation from my limited perspective. Taking the wheel off, I found something different and outside my experience. Like with so many things, I'm not an expert at this but I am a trust but verify kind of guy. I have to image a parts manufacturer like Schaeffler would be such a source. From there I only looked for other references that were similar. The clutch diagnostic guide they published had a lot of information within. This was not some simple bullet list, one page, if this then that deal.

The original poster had an issue and like Linda said, might need the assistance of some Dodge truck guys. So I did a simple search for a starting point of where to look. You bring up a great point about mis-matched parts. This is why I asked what was put in because when it comes to performance stuff in some applications, accommodations sometimes have to be made that the installer in this instance might not been aware of. I'll point to the fore mentioned Mustang. This is another case where there is tons of after market high performance parts available and plenty of cases where installing them has certain requirements.

On the trust but verify front. I looked through a few sources that were not some guys forum posts. Then even more when you began to question it even more vehemently. I have the PDF clutch diagnostic guide but not sure how I would post it if you wanted to look. I did a little bit of searching through google books and found some articles from the society of automotive engineering journals and some auto tech text books. While a bit older reference materials (limitation of google books) I did find some mention of this type of clutch assembly.

So let me make a logic argument (why do I always find myself doing this). Which is going to have more friction wear? A surface that has a constant pressure load or one that has no surface load until engaged? The later will have initial slippage and friction hence wear. How much slippage will the bearing under load have if pressure is being constantly applied? This is just the way my mind approaches these kinds of questions. It is all problem analysis and solution. Did I ever mention how often I get this wrong just in case I am here but I am only trying to reconcile what I've just read with how I always understood things to work.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

It is a slow load but here is the diagnostic guide I'm talking about. At the end of page 5 above the picture of a bearing on the bottom is the statement. I've read this at more than one such type of reference source. I'm not going to go through my browser history to find them all. A similar search is available to you as well and you don't need me for it.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Just about every thing out there now with any kind of front drive or 4WD has a non serviceable sealed ball thrust bearing (opposing races). Spinning clutch bearings have been the norm for quite some time shoot my Tacoma 6 speed does not have a pilot bearing in the end of the crank like the man said "the times they are a changing". The OP has some serious issue if he is trashing bearings and it seems to me that some one who has been in there should have been able to resolve it it's not a complex system.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Well on the 2001 Mustang, the front wheel bearing assembly is not like the Toyota and that was the point. It is a bolt in hub with sealed bearings.

I was talking about something like a 1965 Mustang. I wasn't thinking about something new. Many if not most newer cars - use pre-assembled cup and cone bearings just like 65 Mustang I'm talking about though. The difference being there is no adjuster nut; just a shim pack and all is pressed into a "unit" housing and considered non-servicable and usually replaced as an assembly. That being said, I have taken a few part and just replaced the bearings. There were a few Japanese car makers that toyed with ball-bearings instead of cup-and-cone in those assemblies but it did not work well. That was the reason for the big Subaru wheel-bearing recall. Failed ball-bearings. The new replacements were sealed cup-and-cone again.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

my Tacoma 6 speed does not have a pilot bearing in the end of the crank like the man said "the times they are a changing".

What do you mean there is no "pilot bearing?" The stub on the end of the transmission has to turn against some sort of bearing surface when not turning and the end of the crankshaft is. Or, do you mean it has a non-replaceable bearing? Even if it is just a bored hole in the crank it is still a bearing surface.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

This has been bouncing around for a few days. It is my suggestion for Gr8white to contact support from the company that manufactures the performance clutch and discuss his particular application. There very well could be some installation detail that is being missed. Ours is a related departure but understand we have not the specific understanding of your truck. I hope that maybe also you found one of the Dodge truck forums and got some useful advice there too. Forums, they are a mixed bag with guys like me behind the keyboard. (I am clearly speaking only for myself, in case anyone takes offense)

Also have a look at the PDF link. Maybe something there will spark an idea.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Dodge is the "last of the Mohicans" last I checked - in regard to manual transmissions in full size trucks. At least for those that carry the name of the "big three" in the USA. Seems Dodge AKA Fiat is the only one offering a manual now.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

agreed when you replaced the clutch did you use a pilot shaft tool to center the disc. and make shure you do NOT drive around with your foot on the clutch pedal. I don't know the dodge you need to find out if there is a clutch adjustment on that.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

in the old days the Toyotas used a ball pilot bearing .But my datson used a bronze bushing for the pilot there were others who used a bushing. but I would never do a clutch job with out replacing the pilot bearing or bushing . and all other internal parts

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Others have [pretty much covered it..pun intended, .mismatched parts, front bearing retainer wear, pilot bearing, cable or linkage, not familiar with your app.so I can't be specific....Did you mention the name of the parts that you were using? I may have missed it....Did you get a complete kit or mix & match?

I would be interested in the name of the manufacturer of the parts used........ donnie

Link to comment
Share on other sites

What do you mean there is no "pilot bearing?" The stub on the end of the transmission has to turn against some sort of bearing surface when not turning and the end of the crankshaft is. Or, do you mean it has a non-replaceable bearing? Even if it is just a bored hole in the crank it is still a bearing surface.

Nope no bearing no bushing. Toyota for years had nice roller bearings the 6 speed has no crank bearing Hasn't since 05 main shaft ends right at the splines.Many front drive stuff does not either like Honda.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.

×
×
  • Create New...