jjrbus Posted February 9, 2015 Share Posted February 9, 2015 93 Toyota Seabreeze, 6 cyl auto. The AC system in the cab does not work, I missed that it is R12. Anyone have suggestions on successful AC repairs. Better to stick with R12 or convert to 134a. If you converted to 134a are you satisfied with it and approximate cost? Any input, ideas, suggestions, thoughts or wisecracks greatly appreciated. JIm SW FL Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bob C Posted February 9, 2015 Share Posted February 9, 2015 I converted mine to 134a. I tried to replace the accumulator tank but mine had a different thread than anything I could find so the old one went back into the system. For my conversion, I started with a rinsing agent to remove all of the old oil, removed the accumulator tank and rinsed it, used my air compressor to remove the rinsing agent, installed the proper quick connects, added an oil blend that is made for converted systems, had a friend with an a/c vacuum pump draw the system down as much as possible, and recharged the system with 134a. We tested the a/c on a 100 mile trip but have never used it since. I think my total price including the gauge/hoses was about $60 and took about 3 hours. Most of that time was sitting in the back yard enjoying adult beverages and listening to the vacuum pump run. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zero Posted February 9, 2015 Share Posted February 9, 2015 93 Toyota Seabreeze, 6 cyl auto. The AC system in the cab does not work, I missed that it is R12. Anyone have suggestions on successful AC repairs. Better to stick with R12 or convert to 134a. If you converted to 134a are you satisfied with it and approximate cost? Any input, ideas, suggestions, thoughts or wisecracks greatly appreciated. JIm SW FL I've converted over a dozen cars and trucks with R12 to 134A. That being said, my 1988 Toyota still has R12. If it springs a leak, I'd convert it. .This is a subject that seems to get some people upset and insist conversions do not work. Mine have worked fine. Guess you'll have to make up your own mind. #1 - you have to identify the leak. Not always easy to do. If your system is not working and you did not drain it intentionally, it leaks. 134A will result is less cooling but not by a lot. One important thing to consider with changing. 134A has smaller molecules then R12 and leaks through the walls of "old style" rubber hoses. When 134A became the norm in 1995 - rubber hoses for AC all got switched to "barrier" hose design. So the hoses in your 1993 will likely leak if used with 134A. New hoses for your Toyota (if made after 1995) will be barrier hoses. To convert you need a new receiver-drier (4 Seasons # 33583) for $9, two adapter fittings for $4 each (4 Seasons #59978 & #59976), o-ring kit (4 Seasons # 26750) for $8, Ester oil for $10, and 3-4 cans of 134A. If I was doing it - I'd buy two new rubber hose assemblies for $35 each (4 Seasons #55868 & #56315), and also change all the o-rings. Total cost of all WITH new rubber hoses is around $120. Less then $50 if you do not change the rubber hoses. If you stick with R12, you basically have to buy and install illegally unless you have a license. Also pay $25 and up a can which can REALLY hurt if it leaks out the day after you install it. Also note that 134A is also on the way to being phased out so prices will be shooing up. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jjrbus Posted February 9, 2015 Author Share Posted February 9, 2015 Thanks for the responses, Part numbers and all, I'm impressed. I've done some reading and it is all confusing. The condensor on this does not look good, so will add that to any parts replacement. Replaceing 20 year old hoses seems like a good investment. This system is empty, must be leaking! Now I am in the afraid to look at anything phase, scared I will find something else wrong. Thanks JIm SW FL Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zero Posted February 10, 2015 Share Posted February 10, 2015 Finding leaks can be tricky unless real obvious. Usually it's checked when a vacuum pump is hooked to it. Run the pump until you've got 27-29 inches of mercury vacuum and then let it sit for a day and see if it maintains the vacuum. One problem though is if you do not have a vacuum pump you can use for days if needed. The other is - sometimes a leak won't show up under vacuum but will under pressure. In a good working AC system, when working, part is under a vacuum and part is under pressure. When you shut off and park the truck - it equalizes and all becomes pressurized. Very often this is when the gas escapes. One "cheap" way to test is make an adapter fitting for an air-chuck to fit one of the charge ports. Them hook to an air compressor and pressurized the whole system up to 100-120 lbs. Then while under pressure - spray everything with a mix of water and dish-washing detergent and look for bubbles. I've found some slow problem leaks this way when I couldn't with infrared dye or the vacuum test. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jjrbus Posted February 10, 2015 Author Share Posted February 10, 2015 I did not know the system could be pressurized! I have been watching Craigslist for a vacuum pump and manifold, hate to buy another tool, but if I could sell them when I am done, might be worth it. Pressurizing should not be that hard? I have the soap and water mixed up I am checking the air bags for leaks. JIm SW FL Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zero Posted February 10, 2015 Share Posted February 10, 2015 You can buy a "venturi" vacuum pump for $15. Also a cheap electric for $100. Things have changed a lot since we got flooded with cheap stuff from China (and Japan before that). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jjrbus Posted February 10, 2015 Author Share Posted February 10, 2015 I was eying this' Would be easier to sell. 2.5 CFM 1 Stage Rotary Vane Deep Vacuum Pump Refrigerant AC Air Condition HVAC Seller : taztool (115163 ) 99.1% Positive feedback Follow this seller |See other items | Visit store: Taz Tool Item Information Item condition: New Quantity: More than 10 available / 110 sold Was: US $79.99 You save: $5.60 (7% off) Price: US $74.39 and there is a manifold gauge set for $28 including shipping. It is to the point a tool can be used one time and thrown away. Of course some of them need to be thrown away after one use! JIm SW FL Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Totem Posted February 12, 2015 Share Posted February 12, 2015 if its not leaking and you can find the R12 dont convert it. The R134a will never outcool r12; every person i know that did conversion always says the original r12 was much colder. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zero Posted February 12, 2015 Share Posted February 12, 2015 If the system needs a charge, it leaks. That is, unless someone opened it up on purpose. I see an awful lot of silly "for sale" ads for cars and trucks that say "AC just needs a charge." Absolute bullsh*t ! As far as all conversions from R12 to 134A being much less cool? More BS. Yes, a conversion will result in less cooling but not always by a great amount. My Chevy Suburban, when changed from R12 to 134A wound up with AC outlet vent-temps only 2 degrees warmer. All depends on the vehicle, size of the condensor, how well the job is done, etc. When I changed my 1995 Chevy Geo Tracker from R12 to 134A - there was NO change in AC outlet vent temps. Now when I converted my 1992 VW diesel Jetta - it runs 5 degrees F warmer. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jjrbus Posted February 12, 2015 Author Share Posted February 12, 2015 If my outfeed temp drop to anything below 80 it will be a big improvement!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Totem Posted February 13, 2015 Share Posted February 13, 2015 Disagree, what you wrote does not take into account that if not used regularly or even exercised in the winter, the oil in the coolant doesnt get pumped through and contact the seals and the rubber dry rots out; this is a common thing in AC and I am shocked that a mechanic like you would call it "BS". a slow leak in a seal can leak enough that the AC stops functioning correctly. Does it mean that the AC is shot? no, just needs a charge. the charge ALSO has oil in addition to coolant; the oil will swell the seals and in effect fix the leak. Its the neglect of not exercising the AC in that case in prior years that the seals dry out again and leak (in the case of a seal leak). as to your second "BS" comment you call shenanigans then immediate agree with me? "Yes, a conversion will result in less cooling but not always by a great amount. ". SO you would advise someone to do a full conversion on perfectly good AC rather than find some R12 even at $25 a can its cheaper than a conversion. the only reason to do a conversion would be because of not being able to locate licensed r12 guy or cans. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Totem Posted February 13, 2015 Share Posted February 13, 2015 Also, finding leaks does not require expensive equipment... just a black light ($20 at wall mart) or even your eye balls. get the rig in a dark barn, charge it up and also add a dye oil can. Most newer refrigerants actually have the dye oil in them. Either way if its got no AC and you add coolant, the odds are the leaked out ages ago and the new coolant will reopen the leak; the dust in the immediate area will saturate with the coolant oil and be easily visible or at least draw your eye to the problem component. Personally I would take a crack at $50 of R12 and $70 of a mechs time to see if you could bring it back and then just make sure to run the thing a few times a year and in the winter. Sheesh... "BS"...LOL Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zero Posted February 13, 2015 Share Posted February 13, 2015 Disagree, what you wrote does not take into account that if not used regularly or even exercised in the winter, the oil in the coolant doesnt get pumped through and contact the seals and the rubber dry rots out; this is a common thing in AC and I am shocked that a mechanic like you would call it "BS". a slow leak in a seal can leak enough that the AC stops functioning correctly. Does it mean that the AC is shot? no, just needs a charge. the charge ALSO has oil in addition to coolant; the oil will swell the seals and in effect fix the leak. Its the neglect of not exercising the AC in that case in prior years that the seals dry out again and leak (in the case of a seal leak). as to your second "BS" comment you call shenanigans then immediate agree with me? "Yes, a conversion will result in less cooling but not always by a great amount. ". SO you would advise someone to do a full conversion on perfectly good AC rather than find some R12 even at $25 a can its cheaper than a conversion. the only reason to do a conversion would be because of not being able to locate licensed r12 guy or cans. I'm not sure exactly what it is you are ranting about. You stated, and I quote . . "every person i know that did conversion always says the original r12 was much colder." I then stated that there is a lot of BS flying about conversions and it does NOT always result is much less cooling. I stand behind that. There is a tremendous amount of misinformation about AC conversions. Also I deem, many negative reports to be useless since they often lack details - just as your's does.. In regard to seals drying out, or just plain deteriorating over time? Yes, when did I ever hint anything to the contrary? A leak is a leak. Makes no difference if it's a compressor seal, hose, o-ring joint, etc. The end result is the same. The refrigerant escapes. And your comments about leaks being easy to find? Sorry, more BS. Sounds like you've never worked in an AC shop. Some leaks are easy to find and some can drive a person nuts. I don't care if you are using a Halogen detector, an old flame detector, infrared dye, compressed air, vacuum-hold method, etc. Much depends on how slow a leak it is, when it occurs, and in what part of the system. It would be nice if it was always as easy as you state, but it is not. If the leak is a low-pressure slow leak, it often will leave no trace, no dust-stuck-on-oil, and no dye trail. Especially true on older non-barrier rubber hoses when 134A slowly seeps through the walls. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Totem Posted February 13, 2015 Share Posted February 13, 2015 your comment is BS. I go by my experience.... which in this case is my toyota. it was already converted to R134a; its a 1985 EFI 22re. it had "a leak" that i charged up with a couple cans of freon the year i bought it. its been over 3 years now; still works. I run my AC on max at least 3 times a winter with the soul purpose of lubricating seals to keep it from leaking. I don't understand what you are talking about because these are the most common forms of leaks. unless the vehicle has been in an accident or had damage i don't see why you seem to think its AC is going to be such a pain or for that matter your illogical fear of R12. At every rally I have been to I talked to seasoned owners that all said it was much colder when was r12. you seem to only want to believe obscure manuals and schematics from manufacturers and never count people as a decent source; unless of course the person is you... just an observation and not meant to be insulting. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zero Posted February 13, 2015 Share Posted February 13, 2015 your comment is BS. I go by my experience.... which in this case is my toyota. it was already converted to R134a; its a 1985 EFI 22re. it had "a leak" that i charged up with a couple cans of freon the year i bought it. its been over 3 years now; still works. I run my AC on max at least 3 times a winter with the soul purpose of lubricating seals to keep it from leaking. I don't understand what you are talking about because these are the most common forms of leaks. unless the vehicle has been in an accident or had damage i don't see why you seem to think its AC is going to be such a pain or for that matter your illogical fear of R12. At every rally I have been to I talked to seasoned owners that all said it was much colder when was r12. you seem to only want to believe obscure manuals and schematics from manufacturers and never count people as a decent source; unless of course the person is you... just an observation and not meant to be insulting. You obviously don't have a lot of AC experience. Don't know what else to say in response to such absurd statements. You have a habit of misreading posts and then ranting about things that were never said to start with, My comments have nothing to do with reading "obscure manuals." I worked in the automotive and heavy equipment field since the late 60s. I worked at two auto dealerships and three John Deere dealerships. One of the places was a De Laval franchise where we did farm refrigeration repairs. So my comments are based on hands-on repairs of refrigeration systems on cars, trucks, farm tractors, and milk coolers. Only "obscure" manuals might have been my recollection of the many service bulletins we got in the mid-90s in regard to R12-to-134A conversion. I never expressed any "fear" for R12 either, logical or "illogical" as you put it. I just don't like the expense and also the idea that it's basically illegal for someone without a license to install it in a vehicle. 134A is still manufactured in the USA and Canada, unlike R12. It's also much cheaper and it also requires no license. Much more forgiving to your wallet when working on an AC system that might leak. If it wasn't for the issue of availability and expense - I'd prefer R12. But that is not the case. Back to leak finding. NO it is not always easy and it has nothing to do with "being in an accident. AC system has many parts. Some out in open and some hidden where you cannot see them. Leaks are sometimes obvious and easy to find and sometimes extremely difficult to detect. That is the simple reality. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Totem Posted February 13, 2015 Share Posted February 13, 2015 Another simple reality is that his rig was designed to run on R12. R12 is not the same nor even remotely close to being the same as 134a. A good AC mechanic would advise a customer not to convert even today unless the system was damaged so badly the entire assemblies were in need of repair. If the system runs albeit is missing coolant its simply a waste of money to convert it just because R134a is legally made in the USA. Per your own admission R12 is not dangerous, can still be found and there are still licensed installers. In fact there are licensed installers that will pay you to vacuum it from your older cars just to get at the material to recycle it into others vehicles. I don't get your ranting; you are implying that a couple cans of r12 are more expensive or somehow more of a pain than a conversion, you also claim that conversion will be marginally not as good as the original while in the same breath saying its the same after conversion; claim that its somehow illegal; which is only true if you don't go through licensed people. You claim finding leaks in AC is rocket science which it isnt. what a bunch of bad advise. Its an RV from the 70s/80s why waste all that cash converting it to run on coolant it wasnt designed to do?? unless of course... the goal is to be able to get at cheap convenient r134a and charge it up yourself periodically which you espoused to hate others claiming would make it be ok when selling you a vehicle.. that in reality is the REAL reason to convert; so that you can use cheap do it yourself charge ups and rechasrge the system periodically. The reality that is indisputable is that the system was designed to run optimally on r12 and could be brought back to service with a couple cans of R12; legally if he finds a licensed distributor period, and for not more than the cost of a nice steak dinner for two. Simple maintenance (running it periodically) will keep it running for years. If it aint broke, then dont try to fix it. I'm done rant over, and you are right, i dont tear down AC units; i just charge them once every 5 years like most normal people do with normally functional units. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Totem Posted February 13, 2015 Share Posted February 13, 2015 If my outfeed temp drop to anything below 80 it will be a big improvement!! lets get some information... does your compressor kick on and off properly when you turn on the AC? has your vehicle been in an accident or damaged in the cooling area? do you have a licensed r12 guy nearby? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jjrbus Posted February 14, 2015 Author Share Posted February 14, 2015 Compressor does not cycle Not in an accident, no apparent damage In FL many AC people in the area Also the proud owner 30 lbs of R134a picked up for absurdly low price on closeout at Sam's club. Had no use for it when purchased but have seen what happened to R12! Thanks JIm Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Maineah Posted February 14, 2015 Share Posted February 14, 2015 I don't want to get involved with this but I would like to point out that every thing I own right now has R134 in it and it is plenty cool enough as are about all the newer cars/trucks out there. There is a product called freeze 12 it does work but If you have an empty system now is the time to convert it to R134 to make your life easier in the future. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Maineah Posted February 14, 2015 Share Posted February 14, 2015 By the way you need a vacuum pump? Hook it up to your brake booster vacuum line and let the engine run for an hour. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Maineah Posted February 14, 2015 Share Posted February 14, 2015 I did not know the system could be pressurized! I have been watching Craigslist for a vacuum pump and manifold, hate to buy another tool, but if I could sell them when I am done, might be worth it. Pressurizing should not be that hard? I have the soap and water mixed up I am checking the air bags for leaks. JIm SW FL Generally we used pressurized nitrogen it's dry and has no contaminates. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Derek up North Posted February 14, 2015 Share Posted February 14, 2015 I've looked it up before and as I recall the major component of Freeze12 is R143a. EDIT:- http://www.technicalchemical.com/msds/6030.pdf http://www.refrigerants.com/msds/r134a.pdf Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jjrbus Posted February 14, 2015 Author Share Posted February 14, 2015 By the way you need a vacuum pump? Hook it up to your brake booster vacuum line and let the engine run for an hour. Interesting. I found a manifold set for $27 online and bought that and have been watching for a vacuum pump. It's not a Snap On but whats a senior on fixed income going to do? Nitrogen seems like a great idea, but I have nothing available. On one hand sticking with R12 seems like a good idea on the other with a 20 year old system 134a makes financial sense, what to do? If I convert now at home I have some control over my costs. If I have to have it done someplace it could get pricey. Thanks for the input greatly appreciated JIm SW FL Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zero Posted February 14, 2015 Share Posted February 14, 2015 I don't get your ranting; you are implying that a couple cans of r12 are more expensive or somehow more of a pain than a conversion, unless of course... the goal is to be able to get at cheap convenient r134a and charge it up yourself periodically which you espoused to hate others claiming would make it be ok when selling you a vehicle Once again, you are trying to make arguments over things I never said. Why do you bother? Do you suffer from mental defect or can't you find any argument with anything I REALLY said? #1 I never said anything about R12 being a "pain" to install. Expensive, yes. Requires a license, yes. One can of R12 often cost $30 and requires a license. One can of 134A costs $4 and anyone can buy and install, #2 I never said anything to indicated that I somehow "frown" on people recharging their AC systems with 134A. My comment was about the many people who put vehicles up for sale with non-working AC and claim the only problem is "just needs recharge." That is just about always pure BS. Often the AC has not worked in years, the owner is clueless as to why, and not willing to pay to find out. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zero Posted February 14, 2015 Share Posted February 14, 2015 Interesting. I found a manifold set for $27 online and bought that and have been watching for a vacuum pump. It's not a Snap On but whats a senior on fixed income going to do? Nitrogen seems like a great idea, but I have nothing available. On one hand sticking with R12 seems like a good idea on the other with a 20 year old system 134a makes financial sense, what to do? If I convert now at home I have some control over my costs. If I have to have it done someplace it could get pricey. Thanks for the input greatly appreciated JIm SW FL Nitrogen is "dry" but I've never felt a need for it. Whatever small amount of moisture might get into your AC system after using compressed air to pressure-check - will be removed by the vacuum pump after it forces all moisture in the system to boil out. R12 is certainly a better refrigerant for a R12 system that likely has a smaller condensor then later 134A versions (but not always). One key factor as I see it is this. Using 134A means you can add refrigerant now and then without breaking the bank. Or completely redo, several times, without a huge financial loss. Slow leaks can be very difficult to find at times. I've seen systems dye-checked. Also that would hold a vacuum for a two day check. Then after being charged they come back in three months needing a charge. Some Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zero Posted February 14, 2015 Share Posted February 14, 2015 By the way, 134A is in the process of being phased out, just as R12 was back ca. 1994. Now is the time to stock up on it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Derek up North Posted February 14, 2015 Share Posted February 14, 2015 Great, just what we need. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Maineah Posted February 14, 2015 Share Posted February 14, 2015 I've looked it up before and as I recall the major component of Freeze12 is R143a. EDIT:- http://www.technicalchemical.com/msds/6030.pdf http://www.refrigerants.com/msds/r134a.pdf It is but it is compatible with the oils. I have used it but it would not be some thing I would use as a complete recharge just for a slightly low 25 year old system. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Maineah Posted February 14, 2015 Share Posted February 14, 2015 Nitrogen is "dry" but I've never felt a need for it. Whatever small amount of moisture might get into your AC system after using compressed air to pressure-check - will be removed by the vacuum pump after it forces all moisture in the system to boil out. That's fine but it is not some thing I would use boiling will not remove the water from a desiccant compressed air often has oil in it and dust from the air. I might use it in a pinch for my own stuff but not in some thing that belong to some one else. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Maineah Posted February 14, 2015 Share Posted February 14, 2015 By the way, 134A is in the process of being phased out, just as R12 was back ca. 1994. Now is the time to stock up on it. I don't think you will see it widely used for a long time yet. R134 will not be like the R12, R12 was priced out of reach in order to get it out of the hands of those that would just open the valve and let it go those day are long past. Being from the South East we have seen it all AC there was not a luxury it was a necessity I have seen AC system full of propane or butane (by the way it works fairly well) but something I would recommend. That is one reason most people do not recycle Freon just a small amount in the recyclers will make the Freon unusable. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zero Posted February 14, 2015 Share Posted February 14, 2015 134A certainly seems to be on the way out. Some so-called "experts" claim it is just as bad for the atmosphere as R12. When it will happen, I do not know. Seems it will take place when some agreement is made on what will replace it. Same with conventional unleaded gasoline which will soon be "ultra-low" sulfur. I suspect it will drive the prices up just like it did with diesel fuel. Back in the 80s - we had 30 lb. bottles of R12 that we used just to super cool steel parts when pressing them into something. So we sprayed it all over the place. It was cheaper then liquid nitrogen which I still use now and then. Here in farm-land, the artificial cow-make-pregnant guys carry around tanks of liquid-nitrogen and I can usually get a cup full when I need it, for free. 2,3,3,3-Tetrafluoropropene, or HFO-1234yf, is a hydrofluoroolefin with the formula CH2=CFCF3. It has been proposed as a replacement for R-134a as a refrigerant in automobile air conditioners. HFO-1234yf is the first in a new class of refrigerants acquiring a global warming potential (GWP) rating 335 times less than that of R-134a (and only 4 times higher than carbon dioxide, which can also be used as a refrigerant but has significantly different properties to R134A, especially requiring operation at around 5 times higher pressure) and an atmospheric lifetime of about 400 times shorter. It was developed to meet the European directive 2006/40/EC that went into effect in 2011 requiring that all new car platforms for sale in Europe use a refrigerant in its AC system with a GWP below 150 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jjrbus Posted February 14, 2015 Author Share Posted February 14, 2015 If I convert which I am leaning towards at the moment. I plan to replace a few parts, one being the condenser, looks horrible along with the transmission cooler. If R12 uses a smaller condenser why not replace it with a bigger condenser? Or is that impracticable? Becoming cynical over the years I have a suspicion that the demise of R12 and 134 has more to do with patent expiration than anything else. I have traveled a bit and can buy R12 in many countries without license. JIm SW FL Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zero Posted February 14, 2015 Share Posted February 14, 2015 R12 is still made in some countries. Just cannot be shipped to the US if made after the "ban." The ban was by international treaty and is followed by all members of the United Nations and the European Union. In the USA it is legal to buy and sell (with a license) as long as it was made before 1988, or something like that. US cars and trucks were still using it in new vehicles until 1995. The AC condensors grew bigger each year in Toyotas but the fittings differ. NOT a bolt-in swap. 1994 Toyota with R12 has a condensor with 210 square-inches of area. 1995 has 241 square-inches. 1996 has 318 square-inches. 1997 has 338 square-inches, Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Maineah Posted February 14, 2015 Share Posted February 14, 2015 134A certainly seems to be on the way out. Some so-called "experts" claim it is just as bad for the atmosphere as R12. When it will happen, I do not know. Seems it will take place when some agreement is made on what will replace it. Same with conventional unleaded gasoline which will soon be "ultra-low" sulfur. I suspect it will drive the prices up just like it did with diesel fuel. Back in the 80s - we had 30 lb. bottles of R12 that we used just to super cool steel parts when pressing them into something. So we sprayed it all over the place. It was cheaper then liquid nitrogen which I still use now and then. Here in farm-land, the artificial cow-make-pregnant guys carry around tanks of liquid-nitrogen and I can usually get a cup full when I need it, for free. 2,3,3,3-Tetrafluoropropene, or HFO-1234yf, is a hydrofluoroolefin with the formula CH2=CFCF3. It has been proposed as a replacement for R-134a as a refrigerant in automobile air conditioners. HFO-1234yf is the first in a new class of refrigerants acquiring a global warming potential (GWP) rating 335 times less than that of R-134a (and only 4 times higher than carbon dioxide, which can also be used as a refrigerant but has significantly different properties to R134A, especially requiring operation at around 5 times higher pressure) and an atmospheric lifetime of about 400 times shorter. It was developed to meet the European directive 2006/40/EC that went into effect in 2011 requiring that all new car platforms for sale in Europe use a refrigerant in its AC system with a GWP below 150 That is true the Germans have been doing high pressure system for years now. The Europeans are light years ahead of us they do not allow companies to bribe law makers. The Germans have used high pressure ideals with R134 by boosting the high side pressure for better efficiency but again I do not believe there will be a demand to stop the use of R134 for a good while to come there are just too many vehicles out there, the time will come through attrition as the present vehicles age. CCL2F2 is extremely high in methane that was the main concern for it's demise it was cheap and no one cared so they priced it out of reach. We used R11 for the same reason you did for cooling parts it was also used to clean out AC systems when some thing blew up it was a lot less harmful to the environment. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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