A Screaming Deal On A Vixen.

[Derek up North]

Sorry, we all missed it @ $12,300.

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Rare-Vixen-21-039-Diesel-RV-/221604013020?_trksid=p2054897.l4275

https://plus.google.com/u/0/photos/107723014177012272779/albums/6046508742871217697/6046508759547235074?pid=6046508759547235074&oid=107723014177012272779

[linda s]

My guess is the buyers didn't get a hold of it at this price. It sold a couple times before on ebay and just kept coming back.

Linda S

[zero]

Nice for a "collector's item." I wouldn't want it for a "user" RV though. Not for $12K. From what I've read in actual road-tests -the turbo-diesel Vixen got around the same fuel mileage at the turbo-diesel Winnebago Lesharo and Phasar. Road and Driver tested a turbo-diesel Vixen back in 1986 and reported 21 MPG average. I also read many reports about reliability problems with the Vixen (not unlike the Winnebagos). At least the Winnebagos were based on factory made rigs and parts are somewhat easier to get (although often in France). Seems the Vixen used a French Renault drivetrain just like the Winnebagos. And now - many of those Winnebagos have had 3.8 GM gas engines put in -not unlike some of those Vixens had or have.

[Derek up North]

Well, Renault tranny parts for a Vixen can just as easily be sourced from France and BMW engine parts from Germany.

There's one Vixen with an Olds 455 installed. Not sure what tranny, though I doubt the Renault. No report on the gas mileage either.

[Maineah]

I put a clutch in one of them many years ago I believe the 5 spd is a ZF. That BMW engine is a winner they had them in the sedan for a couple of years in the states. All that being said they are maintenance nightmares they had some very bizarre designs ideals. The LaSharo automatic was Renault replaced one of them in a crate from Renault, didn't made it home from it's first trip.

[Derek up North]

A few years back I did some Googling about the 'BMW' diesel. It seems to me that it was actually made (or maybe only designed) by VM of Italy.

Don't remember about the tranny. ZF is certainly not Renault.

[Totem]

it didnt sell, the top bid was 12,300 and the reserve was not met...(just an observation)

[zero]

I put a clutch in one of them many years ago I believe the 5 spd is a ZF. That BMW engine is a winner they had them in the sedan for a couple of years in the states. All that being said they are maintenance nightmares they had some very bizarre designs ideals. The LaSharo automatic was Renault replaced one of them in a crate from Renault, didn't made it home from it's first trip.

Those automatics in the Lesharos and Phasars held up surprisingly well. 120-140,000 miles is a normally reported mileage figure before a tear-down is needed. Considering how heavy those things are and that those automatics have lock-up torque-converters - that's pretty good.

If you installed a new factory fresh trans and it died in it's first trip -that is NOT normal. Not unless it was a trip to the moon.

I've got a 1986 Phasar with what is reported to be the original trans. I have the maintenance log books that go back to when it was new. 14.5 MPG lifetime fuel-mileage average. 140,000 miles and still works fine although I can't say I've taken any trips with it. Just drove it 30 miles to get it home. I'm surprised that Winnebago was brave enough to sell a heavy RV with a lock-up trans and a tiny 2.2 liter, four-cylinder engine Seems Toyota didn't want to try it.

[zero]

Well, Renault tranny parts for a Vixen can just as easily be sourced from France and BMW engine parts from Germany.

Thats little consolation to an RVer broke down somewhere - wanting to get going in a reasonable time-frame. That's the big problem with the Winnebago Lesharos and Phasars. Most parts have to come from overseas. A few US cars shared their engines - but most else comes from French commercial vans. Of some high-priced dealer in California charging $100 for a set of brake pads.

[zero]

A few years back I did some Googling about the 'BMW' diesel. It seems to me that it was actually made (or maybe only designed) by VM of Italy.

Don't remember about the tranny. ZF is certainly not Renault.

According to one of the Vixen enthusiasts who gives tech tips to what few Vixen owners there are - the diesels used a Renault 5 speed and it was the wrong transmission for the job. That because when the Vixen was in the planning stages - it was intended to get a 3 liter Isuzu diesel and not the smaller BMW that was a "last minute" choice. He says the Renault trans has the wrong gearing for the lower powered BMW diesel and gives info on how to change 1st and 2nd gears to give more "get going" power in low gears. Seems the diesel models are awful getting started up hills.

[Derek up North]

Yes, the Vixen in question has the 1st & 2nd gear upgrade.

[Maineah]

interesting that the BMW had 165 HP.

[zero]

Same turbo-diesel engine the Vixen used was only rated 115 max horsepower when used in the 1985 Lincoln. 115 HP @ 4800 RPM and 155 lb. ft. of toque @ 2400 RPM.

What year and model BMW was rated 165 HP with the same engine?

[linda s]

It looks like the Vixen with the GM gas engine was 165 hp, not the BMW

Linda S

[zero]

It looks like the Vixen with the GM gas engine was 165 hp, not the BMW

Linda S

Yes and that is the same setup many owners of Winnebago Lesharos and Phasars have installed. A Buick 3.8 engine and 4T60 trans. Started out as a 140 max horse engine and got more after balancing shafts and sequential fuel injection was added. The Buick/GM 3.8 got built from a old aluminum V8 platform that was really neat. 215 cubic inches, aluminum and two guys after enough beers could lift one up and install in a car, almost by hand. Used early 60s and then sold to Rover in Great Britain. GM later took the old tooling, tweaked it a bit and made various V6s out of it.

Around the same time the Vixen was built - Oldsmobile sold a Cutlass with a choice of a 5.7 liter diesel V8 or a 3.8 liter V6 gas engine and both had near the same power. 5.7 (350 cubic inches) diesel had 105 max horsepower and 205 lbs. max torque. The 3.8 (231 cubic inch) gas V6 had 125 max horsepower and 195 lbs. max torque.

If the postings are accurate - several people who put Buick 3.8s or Chrysler 3.8s in their Lesharos are getting 14.5 - 15 MPG and more power. So same basic fuel mileage as with the OEM 2 liter gas engines but more get up and go.

By the way - my boss had a brand new Lincoln Continental with the exact same BMW turbo-diesel as the Vixen. I used to maintain it for him. 28 MPG was about the best he ever got with it on a long trip. If it could only get 28 MPG in a car, seems the Vixen would have to do worse.

[Derek up North]

I guess you'd have to consider the difference in weight and cd between the Lincoln and Vixen when guessing if the Vixen would do better or worse than a Lincoln.

[zero]

1985 Lincoln Mark VII with BMW turbo diesel weighed 3600 lbs. Vixen weighed near 5880 lbs

Lincoln did 0-60 MPH in 14 seconds. Vixen did 0-60 MPH in 21.8 seconds (obviously working harder).

Lincoln got an EPA fuel mileage rating of 27.5 MPG which is a 100% match for what my bosses car got.

Lincoln stood 54" tall so I doubt wind resistance is a huge factor here.

The road-test reports of the Vixen, done in 1986, that reported 22 MPG sound right to me.

Also note that the Vixen and Lincoln both had overdrive. Vixen had a 3.89 to 1 differential ratio and the Lincoln a 3.73 to 1.

[linda s]

Curb weight of the diesel Mark was 4100lbs. The vixen 5100 so not as far apart but still substantial difference. On the other hand the drag coefficient of the Vixen was recorded by Bendix as .29. Lower than most cars on the road at that time. The smaller more streamlined Cadillac Allante had a drag cd of .34 so the taller, wider Mark was certainly more than that. Helps to make then look like a bullet. So once it was moving it could have used less gas than the Mark. I found lots of owners claiming mid twenties at 70 mph. The 30mpg test was at a steady 55mph.

Linda S

[zero]

Curb weight of the diesel Mark was 4100lbs. The vixen 5100 so not as far apart but still substantial difference. On the other hand the drag coefficient of the Vixen was recorded by Bendix as .29. Lower than most cars on the road at that time. The smaller more streamlined Cadillac Allante had a drag cd of .34 so the taller, wider Mark was certainly more than that. Helps to make then look like a bullet. So once it was moving it could have used less gas than the Mark. I found lots of owners claiming mid twenties at 70 mph. The 30mpg test was at a steady 55mph.

Linda S

The Vixen in the 1986 road-test was put on the scale and weighed 5880 lbs. No mention was made if the driver's were in the vehicle when weighed but I doubt it. It would kind of defeat the purpose.

A 1985 Lincoln with the 302 gas V8 had a dry weight of 3772 lbs according to several printed spec sheets. Diesel version is 185 lbs. lighter according to published specs. Makes sense to me since the little BMW diesel weighs less then the V8. Ford 5 liter V8 is around 540 lbs. BMW 2.4 diesel weighs 433 lbs.

So add 200 lbs. for a full tank of diesel fuel and radiator fill and you've got a car that weighs 3,790 lbs.

Where do your 300 extra pounds come from?

I don't know where your figures are coming from. Mine are from "Standard Catalog of American Cars 3rd edition", "Automobile Catalog.com", and OEM 1985 Ford Brochures.

I fully admit I have no 85 Lincoln or 86 Vixen to put on a scale to see for myself. I doubt you do either.

In odd that the Vixen 1986 owner's manual gives NO info on weight of the vehicle. Just gives the weight of the BMW engine for some odd reason. That and the power specs. 114 horsepower @ 4800 RPM and 150 pound feet of torque @ 2400 RPM.

On a slightly different subject that has been discussed on a different part of the forum. The alternator pulley. Note that the Vixen had an extra large alternator pulley and only a single V-belt drive. Used a dual-output 115 amp alternator that charged 62 amps at engine idle speed. It was a Lestek alternator which is a custom reworked alternator made by a company long out of business. I think it was a reworked Delco or Prestolite unit.

[zero]

By the way, the 1986 Vixen 21 has considerably more equipment that came standard then a 1986 Winnebago Lesharo or Phasar. Both were of similar design with front-wheel drive and foreign diesel engines. Lesharos scale over 6000 lbs. when loaded up. Vixen came with two water pumps, at least two batteries, three water holding tanks, microwave, large power inverter, power converter, stove, furnace, frig, etc. I find the test weight in that road test reasonable.

[linda s]

Vixen weight from Stannerair . Vixen experts and refurbishers. Same weight on all other sites except the one you posted

http://stannerair.hypermart.net/Vixenhome.htm

Mark weight

http://thelincolnmarkviiclub.org/documents/specifications/1985/base/1985baseSpecifications.pdf

Linda S

[Derek up North]

Fwd Vixen?

[Vanman]

Uhmmm "On the other hand the drag coefficient of the Vixen was recorded by Bendix as .29. Lower than most cars on the road at that time. The smaller more streamlined Cadillac Allante had a drag cd of .34 so the taller, wider Mark was certainly more than that. Helps to make then look like a bullet."

By any chance do you know the drag coefficient of the Opel GT, from '69 to '73 ??? I had many of those years back, best streamlined car I ever drove. Not a lot of power, just Ok around town, till they were breathed on but super freeway preformance even stock.

I remember on a flat road with steady throttle at 70 MPH simply popping up the headlights wouk drop you almost 5 MPH, dropping them back down and rite back to 70. Loved them cars, but that was a long time ago.

[Derek up North]

I've no idea for the source of these numbers, but they list the '69 Opel GT @ 0.36. Not great by modern standards.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Automobile_drag_coefficient

They used to refer to them as a 'hairdresser's car' in England.

[Derek up North]

Another number, so who knows?

0.398

http://ecomodder.com/forum/showthread.php/cda-list-1935-10.html

[linda s]

I found a site that gives your Opel a .3 drag. Pretty technical site with lots of aerodynamic resistance figures.

http://mycazr.com/opel-gt/mods/39846/default.htm

Linda

[Derek up North]

I'm afraid that these 2 throw all of their numbers for the Opel GT into doubt.

http://mycazr.com/opel-gt/mods/39851/default.htm

http://mycazr.com/opel-gt/mods/39845/default.htm

[linda s]

It's the internet. I think it's a lot like rolling the dice as far as accuracy. I just post them. I don't think any of us can really verify much of this info. Take everything with a grain of salt is the best policy no matter who posts it

Linda S

[Derek up North]

I agree absolutely.

For the Vixen MPG, I'd expect the 'truth' to lie between the 30mpg figure at a constant 55mph and the 22mpg figure in the magazine road test. I'm guessing the road testers were at or near the bottom of the learning curve and spent much of their time with their foot to the floor in an attempt to get it to move as quickly as the typical vehicle they test. Probably the slowest they'd had since a 2CV.

[zero]

I look at it like this and yes, everything we hear and read needs verification.

RE the front-wheel drive? A front-wheel drive Renault drivetrain was used in the Vixen but stuck in the rear and the rotation got reversed.

The Lesharo and Vixen diesel versions are in many ways similar. Transaxle drive, small turbo-diesel low-tech diesel, loaded with RV accessories. The guy that created the Vixen wanted to use a direct-injected 3.3 liter Isuzu but was unable to get the engine in time.

I read many reports of Lesharos and Phasars getting 25-30 MPG with the diesels. Then I got to drive a few and found out they really got 17-21 MPG most of the time.

Same with Toyota RVs. Big claims all over the Net and much lower in reality.

When I bought my first diesel SUV 4WD it was a 1986 Isuzu Trooper. Owner told me it got 40 MPG had a "Cummins" engine. It had a turbo 2.2 low-tech, indirect-injected diesel similar to the BMW we are talking about. IDI means more thermal loss then a DI diesel. I did not get near 40 MPG. 26- 28 MPG on the highway was more the usual. I still have an 85 non-turbo and it gets 27 MPG.

A 1985 Lincoln diesel certainly wells a hell of a lot less then a Vixen, period. I personally believe the shipping weight specs that are listed for the Lincolns. I also believe the weight that Road Test posted in 1986 when they tried out a Vixen and weighed it. I have not owned a Vixen nor would I ever want to. It looks to me to be fairly low engineered rig that is very collectible but not so great or fun to use or maintain. If I wanted something similar - I'd prefer a Lesharo. Winnebago did a great job building it and at least that rig has some parts support behind it. I have two now but both are very rusted out. If I ever find a clean one - cheap - I like to use it. Like I said. Winnebago did an amazing build and conversion job on those French vans.

The inventor of the Vixen wrote how he built it. Used a Renault front-wheel-drive setup but rear mounted it and made it work backwards. Kind of like what we used to do when putting Corvair engines into Volkswagens.

His own words (Bill Collins):

I opted for the use of a FWD power train, but placed in the rear under a permanent double bed. The Vixen 21 TD and XC transaxle is a Renault UN-l unit similar to that used in the R-30 but with the ring gear on the opposite side of the pinion so that the engine is to the rear for better servicing of the engine driven accessories. Renault promised a new automatic transmission, that would fit in the same spot as the manual 5 speed, but unfortunately it never happened.

The GMC G-20 van was a natural for the independent front suspension, since it had the unequal length upper and lower control arms like most passenger cars and the load capacity required for the Vixen. GM was agreeable until they realized that I intended to cut and weld their front suspension crossmember for our wider track  that would never do. Rather than fight, we switched and tooled up our own crossmember using Kirksite dies.

However, if the Vixen 21 was to achieve its goal of 30-plus mpg at highway speed, a diesel was the only way to go. Mercedes had, by this time, made "turbo diesel" almost an "in" engine.

My first contact was an old associate, Ray Prussing, who had been sales manager in Detroit Diesel and had recently formed Isuzu Diesel of North America. Ray had always kidded me that the "diesel smell" was the "smell of money." For him, that turned out to be very true!

Ray convinced me to try the Isuzu 4BC-2, a 3.3 liter, four-cylinder engine, with direct injection and normally aspirated. An engine was installed in the first prototype, V 21-1, and fired up on April 7, 1983. The first drive around the block was on May 27  one of the most exciting days of my life!!!

As previously discussed the four-cylinder Isuzu 4 BC2 was a 3.3 liter diesel with direct injection. When Isuzu made their presentation for the production development program, they were very pleased and looked for our reaction. Mine was one of disbelief !!! They proposed starting production one year later than we had planned to start!! For a startup company with only one product and a limited supply of funds, their proposal was impossible. We immediately started scurrying !

A former GM friend, who was consulting with Alfa Romeo, suggested an Italian diesel, VM, built in Bologna. I immediately flew over to visit them. I was impressed by their presentation and plant tour, but also noted in their plant lobby a marine diesel with a BMW logo on it. It turned out that VM built the engine and BMW sold it as theirs. I thought that was a solid compliment for the VM engine but also sent me in search of BMW automotive diesel.

[zero]

I agree absolutely.

For the Vixen MPG, I'd expect the 'truth' to lie between the 30mpg figure at a constant 55mph and the 22mpg figure in the magazine road test. I'm guessing the road testers were at or near the bottom of the learning curve and spent much of their time with their foot to the floor in an attempt to get it to move as quickly as the typical vehicle they test. Probably the slowest they'd had since a 2CV.

It (the Vixen) uses a fairly low-tech indirect-injected diesel and has to pull a lot of weight. All one has to do is compare it with other vehicles with similar loads and similar engines. And yes maybe the road test people had their "pedal to the metal" quite a bit. So do a lot of Toyota owners. So do many normal people driving underpowered rigs and trying to keep up with traffic. 30 MPG is a pipe-dream in real world use unless you are a hypermiler and cheat a little with your MPG figures.

[zero]

Vixen weight from Stannerair . Vixen experts and refurbishers. Same weight on all other sites except the one you posted

http://stannerair.hypermart.net/Vixenhome.htm

Where is the dispute here? That Webpage says the Vixen weighs 5100 lbs. empty and does not define what "empty" means? Vixen has 75 gallons worth of storage tanks. Having water and fuel probably adds 400 lbs. What about appliances? What about gear and clothes and food? Are they in an "empty" Vixen? What about two big assed passsengers who weigh 200 lbs. each? That's the problem with posted "empty" weights when they are not defined.

Lincoln shipping weight is with an empty fuel tank and no passengers.

[linda s]

I absolutely agree the 5100 lbs is probably empty and maybe dry weight. I just think it would be very odd for Car and Driver to fill every tank and load up a couple of chunky monkeys for a road test. I've seen several Vixens in person and though I have never driven one they are much smaller than they look. Very minimal inside.

Linda S

[zero]

I absolutely agree the 5100 lbs is probably empty and maybe dry weight. I just think it would be very odd for Car and Driver to fill every tank and load up a couple of chunky monkeys for a road test. I've seen several Vixens in person and though I have never driven one they are much smaller than they look. Very minimal inside.

Linda S

My main point is a Lincoln is just a car. Mostly going to get used with one or two drivers and little else. My boss, who bought one new with the diesel. was a puny 150 lb. chicken farmer who drove by himself. He had it for two years and hated it - mostly because it did not have a nice big 460 cube V8. He was also pissed when he found out it was a German i.e. "Nazi" engine. He was a WWII vet so I don't blame him.

A motor home is made to be loaded with junk and used - as a home with a motor. I hate to think what my 88 Minicruiser weighs now with all the crap I've added including a lot of extra steel in back to extend the frame and add a solid tow hitch.

[Vanman]

Thanks for the Opel info, it is different than what I expected.
I seem to remember that the '69 and' 70 had higher compression and ran a lot stronger than the '71 - '73's, which was the end of the line as far as imports to USA.