1 TON DIFFERENTIAL QUESTIONS: Size of sockets needed to remove differential fill plug & drain plug? Should I flush the differential first? What kind of diff fluid should I use?

[Stevo]

I have a few differential questions please...

1) Do you know what size sockets are needed to remove the fill plug and the drain plug on the 1 ton differential?

2) This vehicles differential has been in storage for about 5 years. Should I flush the differential before I fill it? If so, what stuff should I use to flush it?

3) Exactly what kind of differential fluid should I buy to fill the 1 ton differential?

4) When I fill it with differential fluid, should I fill it level to the fill plug?

5) I'm going to have a mechanic do my brakes and was wondering if there is anything special I need to tell him since this is for the 1 ton rear axle?

Thanks!

[5Toyota]

THE toyota 1 ton is very different it has too have the rear whell bearings packed with grease see other posts on here about this very different feature. they are NOT lubed by gear oil. the rear diff req s G L 5 80 wt 90 wt gear oil. i dont rember for shure think the plugs are 24 mm. no 4. yes fill till oil runs out of hole.

[fred heath]

I switched to 75-140 synthetic lube in the rear axle. A little pricy but figure the extra protection is worth it.

[zero]

I have a few differential questions please...

1) Do you know what size sockets are needed to remove the fill plug and the drain plug on the 1 ton differential?

2) This vehicles differential has been in storage for about 5 years. Should I flush the differential before I fill it? If so, what stuff should I use to flush it?

3) Exactly what kind of differential fluid should I buy to fill the 1 ton differential?

4) When I fill it with differential fluid, should I fill it level to the fill plug?

5) I'm going to have a mechanic do my brakes and was wondering if there is anything special I need to tell him since this is for the 1 ton rear axle?

Thanks!

Fill it to the bottom of the fill hole. The "1 ton" differential is exactly the same as the "1/2 ton" differential. The only difference in the assembly is the type and location of the wheel bearings and it uses different axles. Any GL-5 hypoid gear is fine. Just match viscosity to your local temps. 80-90W is the normal choice which is the same thickness/viscosity as 30-40W motor oil but with EP additives.

[Stevo]

Thanks guys.

Does anyone know the sizes of BOTH sockets I would need? The drain hole is a lot bigger than the fill hole. I tried all mine but none fit. I may have to buy a bunch of them and return what doesn't fit.

Should I flush it first since it was stored for 5 years? (60,000 original miles) If so, what should I use to flush it?

Lastly, would a gear oil like what Fred uses (75-140 synthetic) be good for traveling in all temps?

[bufbooth]

Regarding the size of the drain / fill sockets, I don't have my motorhome near me at the moment but there

is always a chance that a non-OEM bolt was used, so be sure the socket fits snug. Also, ALWAYS remove

the fill bolt first, just in case you cannot remove it yourself, you don't want to be in the situation of draining

all the rear end fluid out and then realize you cannot remove the fill bolt and you cannot drive it anywhere.

Toyota motorhomes are hard to flip over to fill in the drain hole! :-)

Regarding the brakes, make sure you tell your mechanic that the rear wheel studs have locking two piece

cone washers on them that hold the brake drum on. The best way that I have found to remove them is to

place a 14mm or so size socket over them and to give the socket a med. to heavy rap with a hammer, this

releases the pressure and the cone washer will fall into the socket (vs flying across the room). I usually

end up with one of them requiring a few heavy hits.

Dennis...

[bufbooth]

Also, there is a paper dust gasket that goes on the end of the axle (axle comes out in order to remove brake drum).

You might want to order a set of two of them from Toyota before your mechanic does the brake work, they are $1 or two

each. You want to use the paper ones (vs some kind of sealant) in case one of your axle seals fail in the future, the

paper dust gasket allows oil to drip out which gives you a heads up that your axle seals have failed.

Dennis...

[bufbooth]

regarding flushing the rear end, I just pour new oil into it until I see new clear oil draining out,

and then put the drain bolt in and continue filling it up.

The rear diff. fluid are usually surprising clean, but if you think it needs more attention, just change

the rear diff. fluid, put 20 or 30 miles on it and then change the rear diff. oil again.

[zero]

Lastly, would a gear oil like what Fred uses (75-140 synthetic) be good for traveling in all temps?

Most metal protection in gear oil comes from the EP additives (extreme pressure) and has nothing to do with being marketed as "synthetic" or not. Besides that - most lubricants sold as "synthetic" in the USA are not synthetic. In the US and Canada -it is legal to sell a fully petroleum based oil as a fully "synthectic" oil.

I cannot comment on what Fred was using. The only potential gain from some lubes sold as "synthetic" is the flash point. That is the high temp limit when they turn to useless sludge. Some petrol oils have higher flash point ratings that others sold as "synthetic." So, the only way to logically comment on any lubricant is by readng it's spec or MSDS sheet.

Here are some specs on gear oils marketed as synthetics:

Amsoil - "severe gear oil 75W-90 flash point is 403 F

Redline 75W-90 flash point is 440 F

Redline 75W-140 flash point is 440 F

Mobil 75W-90 flash point is 401 F

Here's a lube sold as conventional petro-base from Shell. Spirax 85W-140 or 75W-90 both have flash points of 440 F. Note - that 's higher then many sold as "synthetic."

Note also that a thicker viscosity has little to do with better protection. Big tractors like John Deere and Caterpillar often use a 10 or 20 weight gear oil all year round and get worked a lot harder then any Toyota. John Deere Hyguard transmission/gear oil is conventional petro oil with a flash point of 442 F. Comes in 10W and 20W (engine oil viscosity ratings) and that's equal to 60W-80W in gear oil numbers.

[waiter]

Make sure your mechanic is comfortable working on the floating rear axle.

IMPORTANT - He must be aware that the rear bearings are packed, not lubed by differential fluid. This is unusual configuration.

You may want to print out the rear axle service info and make sure he has it.

John Mc

88 Dolphin 4 Auto

Dully_Rear_End_Overhaul.pdf

[fred heath]

Everyone has his/her opinion on what the best product to use is.

When I first started restoration on my mh, I decided I only want to do the hard work once. 75-140 syn. lube is the same used by Jeep in their Grand Cherokee axles. It's made for heavy duty use. My 1999 used this and I never had any axle problems.

A quart of Mobile 1 sells for about $25.00. Your axle holds at most 2 qts. I would rather spend a little more money now, and not be concerned about it later.

Same with my brake system. I switched to DOT 5 silicone brake fluid (same as used by US Military in their vehicles). It doesn't absorb moisture and has a high boil point. Again about $8.00 a bottle.

As I plan to be averaging 20-25 K per year, I view this as money well spent.

In short, I want my toy to be as "bullet proof" as I can make it.

Already logged over 14K with no problems.

[zero]

When it comes to choosing motor oils or gear oils - personal opinions don't mean very much unless based on some sort of science and hard data. Advertising and marketing relies on selling stuff by reforming opinions and appealing to emotions- with few real facts included.

When it comes to rear axles -hypoid drives (like Toyota uses) need hypoid rated oils with the correct EP additives. They also need the corrrect viscosity for whatever the temp range is. Just about any GL5 oil is suitable for a Toyota RV.

I've checked the differential temp on my truck after towing 8,000 lbs. for 12 hours on a hot summer day. 160F was the hottest it ever got. All GL5 gear oils greatly exceed that for safe use.

Hypoid gears need a sacrificial metal added to the oil. Usually a sulfur-zinc compound or a ZDDP mixture. All GL5 gear oils must have a minimum amount of to be certified GL5.

If a rear axle has a clutch driven locking differential - then extra friction modifiers are needed. Not the case in Toyota RVs.

Going by the facts I have just stated - my opinion is that the "synthetic" craze is a bit of marketing nonsense and many fall for it.

The utilty of synthetic oil came to "our" attention during WWII when Hitler was having it made due to a petroleum scarcity. Our (US military) became aware of it's superior extreme temperature range for use in jet engines and adopted it. That was genuine synthetic oil which is often NOT what you get when you buy something sold as "synthetic" today. A military jet pilot marketed this true synthetic oil to the general public after WWII was over. That was Mr.Amatuzio who founded "Amsoil."

True synthetic oil is still commonly used in extreme conditions including car racing. Not often found in products sold to the general public for cars and trucks driven on the highway. Amsoil is one of the few that still sells it. I'm not sure about Mobil 1 but after reading their data sheets - it appears it is NOT genuine synthetic oil.

I sugggest that if someone desires and extra level of protection - they read some data sheets and find out what they are actually getting. There are many conventional gear oils that meed or exceed the specs on many gear oils sold as "synthetic."

On the subject of temperature ranges - Shell Spirax conventional GL5 gear oil - 75W-90, is rated for use down to minus 45 degrees F and up to 440 degrees F. Mobil One 75W-90 gear oil - sold as "synthetic" is rated for temps down to minus 40 and up to 401 degrees F. Not that it matters much in a Toyota, but the Shell conventional oil beats the so-called Mobil synthetic.

When someone claims they prefer synthetic oil due to it's "better protection" I suggest you ask exactly what oil it is and what superior properties it is alledged to have. I choose my oils by temp range and amount of anti-wear additives.

[fred heath]

As I stated in my prior post, everyone has a different opinion.

I use what I know works well for me.

All fluids in my mh are synthetic. Marketing hype maybe! I'm sure if I wanted to waste my time doing web search I could find all types of statistics promoting synthetic over conventional. I have more important use of my time.

I subscribe to the belief "you get what you pay for". My opinion is based on actual road miles under often extreme conditions. Would my toy have run as well with conventional lube? Maybe.....

Anyway, we all can choose our poison.

Good luck to all and happy motoring.

[Boots]

I switched to 75-140 synthetic lube in the rear axle. A little pricy but figure the extra protection is worth it.

I agree,

particularly if the differential is an old model, the 75-140 weight differential oil (particularly if you are in the high heat zones, like Arizona) is better for fuel economy, heat protection and noise. I started using this about 1980 in an old truck, got the oil from a company that serviced tractor trailer units. Now it comes in a synthetic version.

Boots

[zero]

Again - my comments are based on well known established facts. Has nothing to do with "wasting time" doing Web-searching.

Mechanical components are engineered and don't arrive on earth by magic. Same goes with lubricants. Does't take much work to find out what a modern component calls for in lube. It also takes little work to get a data-sheet for any lube and find out what it does - and does not. It is rarely written on the label on the product.

When it comes to gear lube - the American Petroluem Institute has done a pretty good job of simplifiying with designations e.g. GL1, GL4, GL5, etc.

Oils being marketed as "synthetic" is sometimes inferior to other conventional oils when it comes to high heat protection. That is a simple fact. For those who claim otherwise - show some actual data as I have.

When it comes to actual lubrication in a highway vehicle - it has absolutely nothing to do with an oil being petro, "cracked petro called synthetic", or genuine synthetic. It's all about the addtive packages.

It is also a fact that it is legal in the USA to label a 100% petroleum lubricant as being 100% synthetic. It is NOT legal in most of Europe.

Hypoid-drive rear axles are usually amazingly durable. Very rare to see any hypoid drive fail and when it does - it's usually due to lack of lube, misapplication, and/or mis-use and NOT because of an inferior lube. The converse is also true. Claims of sucessfully driven miles are kind of meaningless when crediting a certain oil. If we were discussing a component that had a bad service life record - and one oil was proven to extend its life - that would be a different story.

When it comes to engine oils - some true synthetics DO make a difference for some uses when we're talking multi-viscosity oils. Mulit-viscosity petro-oils petro use polymers and those polymers can cause piston ring sticking in diesels. Synthetic oils when multi-viscosity do not rely on polymers and result in less deposits on piston rings.

[Stevo]

bufbooth:

1) I called a Toyota dealership and read the parts guy what you said about using a "paper dust gasket" instead of silicone and he didn't know what I was talking about. Is there a different term I could use to describe those paper gaskets so the Toyota parts guy will know what I'm talking about? Also, is Toyota the only place to buy those?

2) Do the paper gaskets go directly behind the plate at the end of the axle (see photo below)? If its more complicate than that, and when you have a chance, can you look at the PDF of the rear axle that "waiter" provided http://toyotamotorhome.org/forums/index.php?app=core&module=attach&section=attach&attach_id=5368 and tell me which image shows where the paper gaskets go in lieu of sealant please? (You will see in the bottom left corner of every image some letters and numbers.)

waiter:

That PDF you provided is much better than the information I had. I will give him a copy of it. Thank you.

I bought two quarts of this gear oil from Walmart http://www.walmart.com/ip/Super-Tech-75W-140-Synthetic-Gear-Oil-1-Quart/16795247 and it was cheap at only $11 per bottle.

I'd like to have all the necessary parts there for the mechanic so he can do this in one trip. The brake lines will for sure need to be bled and new brake fluid installed but I don't know at this point if the vehicle even needs new brakes so here are a few MORE QUESTIONS PLEASE...

1) If the brakes appear good does it matter that the front brakes have hardly been used in 3 to 4 years and the rear 1 ton has been sitting in a storage yard unused for 4 to 5 years?

2) If he does need brake pads, etc. for the front and back, is the stuff from a local O'Reillys or Pep Boys good enough? I hope so because that way whatever he doesn't use I can easily return.

3) If O'Reillys and Pep Boys is okay, exactly what parts/fluids should I buy now for the front and back brakes and the 1 ton axle?

4) Is there some special brake fluid required for the 1 ton compared to a non 1 ton?

Thanks again everyone!

[zero]

bufbooth:

1) I called a Toyota dealership and read the parts guy what you said about using a "paper dust gasket" instead of silicone and he didn't know what I was talking about. Is there a different term I could use to describe those paper gaskets so the Toyota parts guy will know what I'm talking about? Also, is Toyota the only place to buy those?

2) Do the paper gaskets go directly behind the plate at the end of the axle (see photo below)? If its more complicate than that, and when you have a chance, can you look at the PDF of the rear axle that "waiter" provided http://toyotamotorhome.org/forums/index.php?app=core&module=attach&section=attach&attach_id=5368 and tell me which image shows where the paper gaskets go in lieu of sealant please? (You will see in the bottom left corner of every image some letters and numbers.)

axle.jpg

waiter:

That PDF you provided is much better than the information I had. I will give him a copy of it. Thank you.

I bought two quarts of this gear oil from Walmart http://www.walmart.com/ip/Super-Tech-75W-140-Synthetic-Gear-Oil-1-Quart/16795247 and it was cheap at only $11 per bottle.

I'd like to have all the necessary parts there for the mechanic so he can do this in one trip. The brake lines will for sure need to be bled and new brake fluid installed but I don't know at this point if the vehicle even needs new brakes so here are a few MORE QUESTIONS PLEASE...

1) If the brakes appear good does it matter that the front brakes have hardly been used in 3 to 4 years and the rear 1 ton has been sitting in a storage yard unused for 4 to 5 years?

2) If he does need brake pads, etc. for the front and back, is the stuff from a local O'Reillys or Pep Boys good enough? I hope so because that way whatever he doesn't use I can easily return.

3) If O'Reillys and Pep Boys is okay, exactly what parts/fluids should I buy now for the front and back brakes and the 1 ton axle?

4) Is there some special brake fluid required for the 1 ton compared to a non 1 ton?

Thanks again everyone!

No special brake fluid.

As to quality of brake components from O'Reilly's or Pep Boys?? They don't just sell one brand, line, or type. It's up to you to choose. They sell low and high quality parts just like all the other parts sellers I know of. In the "old days" before computers - you had to take the person's word for things (behind the counter). Now - you can look up yourself before buying. In the modern age of computers enabling anytone to work a parts counter- many parts people are absolutely clueless. Brake "quality" does not mean the same thing to all people. If you choose a softer organic lining - it will wear before the metal parts do and glaze a bit faster when overheated. A "semi-metallic" is a good compromise with balanced wear - i.e. the shoes/pads wearing at a similar rate as the metal parts and better resistance to overheating. Then - what some call the "best" is full metallic or ceramic that can make metal parts wear before the linings do in some cases. The middle category - semi-metallic is often the best choice for all-around use and is often what is used OEM on many cars and trucks. Oddly - the Toyota dual wheel one ton trucks came OEM with organic as far as I know. if so - I guess that was to preserve the more expensive metal parts (drums and rotors). The front brake pads do most of the work and those are the brake surfaces that concern me the most.

I much prefer changing brake "soft parts" now and then rather then having them last longer - and also eat up the drums and rotors at the same time.

Clutch parts are the same. Hard metallic clutch disks tend to ruin flywheels but sometimes last longer between tear-downs.

GL5 gear oil covers any need in your Toyota rear axle. I do not suggest an extreme heavy viscosity if you drive when it's 30 F below outside, which is doubtful.

In regard to brakes and the effects of sitting idle for years. Rust and things being stuck are the main issue. If the front rotors aren't covered with rust and the calipers are not dragging - the front should be fine. For the rear? Make sure the drum surfaces aren't coated with rush and linkage is free. The last dually Toyota I pulled apart that had sat for 5 years had the brake shoes almost "welded" to the brake drums from rust. When I finally got it apart, I had to get new shoes. But salt-rust is a big factor where I live.

In regard to your paper gaskets at the ends of your dually axle - I'm not sure what your concern is with RTV versus paper gaskets? RTV is likely to give you a better seal as long as you assemble when oil is not dripping. The only time using RTV instead of a gasket concerns me is when installed depth is an issue. Some components are designed with the thickness of a gasket taken into account. No such problem with your rear axle.

A set of shoes (enough for both sides) is only around $20 from Beck Arnley.

$20 BECK/ARNLEY Part # 0811109 to replace OEM #0449535051, 0449535090, 0449535100, 0449535122, 0449535141, 0449535180, 0811075.

Rear; RWD; Heavy Duty Chassis, Model # Ending In 3W

OEM pads tend to cost $12 to $20 for a full set.

WAGNER Part # 7205

F Disc Pads RECOMMENDED REPLACEMENT IS ORGANIC, Except 4WD,1 TON HEAVY; Base Model Engine VIN R Code 22R - $20 at Rock Auto

NAPA sells the OEM type organic pads as Part Number: TS TS7205 for $23

NAPA also sells OEM type organic pads under the UP label for near $60. Part # UP7205

Note - I've used both and cannot perceive much of a difference. In fact,they looked and performed the same as far as I could tell.

[Stevo]

In regard to your paper gaskets at the ends of your dually axle - I'm not sure what your concern is with RTV versus paper gaskets? RTV is likely to give you a better seal as long as you assemble when oil is not dripping. The only time using RTV instead of a gasket concerns me is when installed depth is an issue. Some components are designed with the thickness of a gasket taken into account. No such problem with your rear axle.

Thanks for all the great info about brakes.

I really don't have any "concern" for what gasket to use at the end of the axle but bufbooth recommended I use a paper gasket (Toyota part # 4244435060) instead of a goopy sealant because "the paper dust gasket allows oil to drip out which gives you a heads up that your axle seals have failed." Sounds good to me but what the heck do I know?? Does that make sense to you?

[Stevo]

And for anyone reading this in the future...

The socket size for the fill and drain plugs on the 1 ton rear differential is 24mm.

[fred heath]

I would go with the middle brand. The really cheap ones tend to create a lot of dust. The top of the line is really overkill.

I buy my components from Auto Zone. All of the big chain stores pretty much carry the same quality. The thing that appeals to me about Auto Zone is they usually offer a "lifetime" guarantee on the parts. (even brake pads). Obviously the big expense is the labor. But it's still nice to know come replacement time, the parts are free.

On the front, if your calipers are good, I would go ahead and replace the rotors. They're pretty inexpensive now and will make your pads last longer.

[zero]

Thanks for all the great info about brakes.

I really don't have any "concern" for what gasket to use at the end of the axle but bufbooth recommended I use a paper gasket (Toyota part # 4244435060) instead of a goopy sealant because "the paper dust gasket allows oil to drip out which gives you a heads up that your axle seals have failed." Sounds good to me but what the heck do I know?? Does that make sense to you?

The paper gasket is supposed to seal and "leaking" is not part of the OEM design. If it did NOT seal - it would pemit water to enter and ruin the bearings. RTV sealant is not "goopy" when used properly and you let it set. Thus the name Room Temperature Vulcanizing compound. Many new engine and drivetrain parts when leaving the factory are sealed with RTV or Loctite "Plastic Gasket." I don't comprehend the idea that somehow a paper gasket lets you know when a seal is leaking? When installed propertly - it seals just as RTV does. Each side on the FF rear has two spring-loaded rubber/nitrile lipped seals. If the small one leaks (rides directly on axle end) - gear oil makes it's way into the grease reservoir in the rotating hub and nothing "leaks" to the outside. If the second larger seal leaks (the rotating hub seal) -gear oil leaks to the outside and gets on your brakes.

The only advantage I have found with paper gaskets over RTV is when you have a situation where oil is dripping and won't allow RTV to seal properly. We had that problem with John Deere log skidders and dozers. Deere eliminated all the original gaskets and we had to use "liguid gaskets." Not alway easy when you've got a machine torn apart in the woods with oil dripping out of it.

With a Toyota or any other full-floating rear axle? If "wet" inside the axle - just jack up the side you're working on so it's above level and oil won't drip. The RTV usually needs a clean dry surface to install to (with a few exceptions).

[Stevo]

My "keeper" 18' Sunrader has 60,000 miles on it but has been mostly parked for the last 5 years. The 1 ton rear axle I installed on this came from a "donor" 21' Sunrader that was parked in a dry dusty storage yard for 5 years and never moved until being towed here 6 months ago. I don't know when the rear axle upgrade was done so don't know how many miles are on it but the "donor" Sunrader odometer said it had 60,000 miles.

Here are my questions...

1) Can brakes (front and rear) go bad from lack of use?

2) When the mechanic goes over the front and rear brakes on Monday, should I have him totally take apart the rear axle as shown in the attached PDF and re-grease everything?

Thanks again!

1-Ton-Toyota-Rear_End_Overhaul.pdf

[waiter]

Brake pads can absorb water and become brittle.

He will need to take the rear axle apart to check the rear brakes. Just make sure he is aware that the rear axle bearings are packed. He may want to install new seals, they are cheap.

John Mc

88 Dolphin 4 Auto

[Stevo]

EDITED

1) Can a mechanic tell if the brakes have absorbed water or are brittle by just looking at them?

2) Can I buy new axle seals and gaskets for this from O'Reillys, Pep Boys or Napa, or are they only available from Toyota?

3) According to the axle overhaul PDF the Oil Seal and Gasket are considered "non-reusable parts" (see screen capture below). Is there one gasket and one oil seal for each side so there would be 2 Oil Seals and 2 Gaskets needed?

[zero]

EDITED

1) Can a mechanic tell if the brakes have absorbed water or are brittle by just looking at them?

2) Can I buy new axle seals and gaskets for this from O'Reillys, Pep Boys or Napa, or are they only available from Toyota?

3) According to the axle overhaul PDF the Oil Seal and Gasket are considered "non-reusable parts" (see screen capture below). Is there one gasket and one oil seal for each side so there would be 2 Oil Seals and 2 Gaskets needed?

axle1.jpg

Brakes aborbing moisture is not a concern. Heck - you could drive through a mud puddle - or launch a boat and get them water-soaked. Using them heats them up fast and dries them. The result of long-term moisture creating rust and stuck parts is the concern. If the vehicle has been driven on road salt - and/or has been in storage parked outside on damp ground -then you might have issues. And yes - they will be easy to detect.

All the seals are available from any auto parts seller and often they will come from the same company that makes them for Toyota. You don't need gaskets on the sides but they are available if you want them. Seals are reusuable if you're careful - but why would you want to? Seals are cheap. There are two seals per side. A small stationary axle seal and a larger rotating hub seal. I just bought some from Timken and they were made in Japan by the same company that Toyota gets them from.

[waiter]

24mm. I went to Harbor Freight and bought a cheap set of the black impact driver sockets. Had to use a long breaker bar to get the nut to break loose.

I topped it off with 80w90. it only took about 1/2 cup, if that much

John Mc

88 Dolphin 4 Auto (For Sale0

[linda s]

24mm. I went to Harbor Freight and bought a cheap set of the black impact driver sockets. Had to use a long breaker bar to get the nut to break loose.

I topped it off with 80w90. it only took about 1/2 cup, if that much

John Mc

88 Dolphin 4 Auto (For Sale0

Why wouldn't you drain and refill with all new. Mine was major nasty when I replaced the fluid a couple of years ago

Linda S

[waiter]

Linda. I have a noise that just started and just wanted to check the level. Sounds like a U-joint or bad bearing in the rear end. I'll pull it into the pole barn this weekend and climb under there and take a better look.

John Mc

88 Dolphin 4 Auto (For Sale)

[stamar]

its a huge plug 24 mm.

I replaced mine and the drain plug had a metalic black coat like 4 mm high on it.

I put in supertech full synthetic 75-140 in mine because who knows when its going to happen again. mine was not stuck at all which leads me to believe it had been done at least once in the 90k miles its gone. but not too recently.