Odyssey 4x4 Posted April 29, 2013 Share Posted April 29, 2013 Hey all, I recently purchased a 1987 Toyota Escaper mini. The truck is awesome and in great shape but the cap air does not work! The compressor sounds like it has a bad bearing even when ac is not on, it still turns on when a/c is turned on but no cool air. So I ordered a new compressor for a 1987 Toyota pick up and to my surprise when it showed up, it is a completely different mounting style. After some more investigating it appears the truck may have had the a/c system put on it aftermarket possibly? The system on it uses a bracket with a belt tensioner as part of the bracket as you can see here. Also notice the way the bolts attach the compressor to the mount. The compressor sent to me that is the correct part number for an 87 toyota pick up looks like this...(Denso 471-0137 ) As you can see, completely different mounting style. So after this happened I looked at the compressor currently on the truck and saw these numbers...Blue sticker is DKS-15BH and red sticker reads 509618-5703. After googling the part number on the compressor (DKS-15BH) it is showing it is made for a Volvo?! This is what has lead me to think it is an aftermarket ac system? When I look at that compressor part number on google it looks like the correct mounting style but appears to be a little different if you look at the way the lines attach and location. Also notice the number on the blue sticker is the same, but the red sticker is different! If anyone could help me figure this out I would more than appreciate it! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WME Posted April 29, 2013 Share Posted April 29, 2013 If its any help looks like a Sanden 508, its very common in the aftermarket. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Odyssey 4x4 Posted April 29, 2013 Author Share Posted April 29, 2013 I'm going to pull it off and see if there are any more hidden numbers on it, I am trying to locate that specific one but cannot seem to find it. I am not too familiar with automotive HVAC so I am unsure what can vary as far as sizes and specs to work on my specific vehicle. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Maineah Posted April 29, 2013 Share Posted April 29, 2013 They all were dealer installed kits back then. The one you got was for a later factory system. You should be able to find that compressor locally. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zero Posted April 29, 2013 Share Posted April 29, 2013 That compressor is a Diesel Kiki/Zexel and not an Sanden. The "DK" in the "DKS" stands for Diesel Kiki. That company make many AC compressors and diesel fuel injection pumps. Both my Isuzu trucks have Diesel Kiki components. Your's is a Diesel Kiki compressor model 15BH. If it made noise when when not engaged - you need a new $20 idler bearing. As to not working when engaged? Could easily be a leak elsewhere and have nothing to do with the compressor. Especially older non-barrier rubber lines that held R-12 fine but cannot contain the smaller molecules of R-134A. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zero Posted April 29, 2013 Share Posted April 29, 2013 Here's a link for a pdf file for Diesel Kiki parts http://www.ackits.com/diagrams/Dieselkiki.pdf Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bob C Posted April 29, 2013 Share Posted April 29, 2013 One thing to remember is that your '87 Escaper was probably build on an '86 Toyota chassis. My '88 Escaper is on an '87 Toyota. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WME Posted April 29, 2013 Share Posted April 29, 2013 Well learn something new every day, but it sure looks like a Sanden. Remans for the DKS are in the $100-125 range on E bay Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zero Posted April 29, 2013 Share Posted April 29, 2013 Well learn something new every day, but it sure looks like a Sanden. Remans for the DKS are in the $100-125 range on E bay Diesel Kiki made a lot of components "under license" from other companies that are virtual copies of designs by other companies. Diesel Kiki made many Bosch fuel-injection pump "clones." Since Kiki and Sanden are both Japanese - it's easy to see why they look similar. The AC pumps were commonly used in Nissans, Isuzus, Volvos and several GM products e.g. LUVs, Chevettes, and Saturns. The name got changed to "zenith in excellence" that then got shortened to "ZEXEL." After that, a French company took it over the AC pump division (same as for Nissan). Toyoda bought another part of the company (Toyoda, NOT Toyota). The name change happened around the same time International Harvester changed their name to "navigating the stars" which got quickly shortened to "Navistar." Sounds to me like the CEO of Diesel Kiki and the CEO of International Harvester were smoking the same weed. The big difference between the Diesel Kiki compressors and the Sandens is - the Kikis were rotary-vane design and the Sandens were piston-pump design. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
waiter Posted April 29, 2013 Share Posted April 29, 2013 Mine looks identical to yours. I had similar problem. I replaced the compressor, dryer, and all the o-rings in the system. I re-filled with R12, and we're good. JOhn Mc 88 Dolphin 4 Auto Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zero Posted April 29, 2013 Share Posted April 29, 2013 Mine looks identical to yours. I had similar problem. I replaced the compressor, dryer, and all the o-rings in the system. I re-filled with R12, and we're good. JOhn Mc 88 Dolphin 4 Auto How are you getting R12? It requires proof of EPA certification which I no longer have. Even if i did, the price is astronomical as compared to R134A. I'd live to use R12 to recharge the older systems but it's nowhere near cost-effect unless I had a source of free R12. Most older systems work well enough when converted from R12 to 134A as long as new "barrier" rubber hoses are added and the compressor oil is changed to something compatible. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Odyssey 4x4 Posted April 29, 2013 Author Share Posted April 29, 2013 R-12 is still available on ebay and I've seen it on craigslist too. It is not much more than 134. I will be using r-12 in mine for the better performance and it will be installed by my EPA certified HVAC friend. It can be purchased with an EPA certification or if you sign a document stating it is for resale only to an EPA certified person. Obviously don't buy it illegally because I hear the fine is over $10,000 if caught using without a license! Thanks for all the info everyone! So after further investigation, I have found this compressor on ebay which appears to be an exact match other than the red sticker having different numbers on it. Is it safe to assume that this is what I need? http://www.ebay.com/itm/OEM-DKS-15BH-A-C-Compressor-with-Clutch-/221219903495?pt=Motors_Car_Truck_Parts_Accessories&hash=item3381bbd807&vxp=mtr Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Maineah Posted April 30, 2013 Share Posted April 30, 2013 R-12 is still available on ebay and I've seen it on craigslist too. It is not much more than 134. I will be using r-12 in mine for the better performance and it will be installed by my EPA certified HVAC friend. It can be purchased with an EPA certification or if you sign a document stating it is for resale only to an EPA certified person. Obviously don't buy it illegally because I hear the fine is over $10,000 if caught using without a license! Thanks for all the info everyone! So after further investigation, I have found this compressor on ebay which appears to be an exact match other than the red sticker having different numbers on it. Is it safe to assume that this is what I need? http://www.ebay.com/itm/OEM-DKS-15BH-A-C-Compressor-with-Clutch-/221219903495?pt=Motors_Car_Truck_Parts_Accessories&hash=item3381bbd807&vxp=mtr Yes on the compressor. The ebay R12 is most likely what is called "Freeze 12" it is a blend it is compatible with R12 oils. Real R12 (ccl2f2) is priced in the stratosphere and requires a fed license for purchase. If your HVAC guy can pinch 3# from a balk tank go for it but it is unlikely you'll ever notice the difference between R12 and 134. Be a good ideal to replace the dryer too. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zero Posted April 30, 2013 Share Posted April 30, 2013 R-12 is still available on ebay and I've seen it on craigslist too. It is not much more than 134. Anything I've seen for sale that is certified to be genuine R-12 tends to sell for $30 to $40 per 12 ounce can. I buy 134A for $5 per 12 ounce can (1/6th the price). I've been seeing stuff sold as R12 for years that comes from all over the world. I know that much of it sold in the past that was labeled as R-12 was not R-12. Maybe the stuff on Ebay that you're seeing now is genuine. I'm not a chemist and have to rely on the MSDS sheet which is usually available for something that really is genuine. I was just looking at a 26 pound can of Dupont R12 on Ebay that is already bid up to over $400. That comes to $34.60 per can and the bidding is not done yet. Makes me wonder why the certified stuff still goes sky high IF the Chinese undocumented stuff is really as good? I don't pretend to know one way or the other. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zero Posted April 30, 2013 Share Posted April 30, 2013 R-12 is still available on ebay and I've seen it on craigslist too. It is not much more than 134. I will be using r-12 in mine for the better performance and it will be installed by my EPA certified HVAC friend. It can be purchased with an EPA certification or if you sign a document stating it is for resale only to an EPA certified person. Obviously don't buy it illegally because I hear the fine is over $10,000 if caught using without a license! Thanks for all the info everyone! So after further investigation, I have found this compressor on ebay which appears to be an exact match other than the red sticker having different numbers on it. Is it safe to assume that this is what I need? http://www.ebay.com/itm/OEM-DKS-15BH-A-C-Compressor-with-Clutch-/221219903495?pt=Motors_Car_Truck_Parts_Accessories&hash=item3381bbd807&vxp=mtr If you can buy it for $100 or $150 it's a pretty good deal considering it is brand new. The so-called "rebuilt" compressors are often just resealed with many used and un-renewed parts inside. Maybe I'm cheaper then you. i'd shoot the guy an offer of $100 and see if he/she takes it. I've bought many brand-new (not rebuilt) AC compressors on Ebay for $100 or less for older vehicles. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zero Posted April 30, 2013 Share Posted April 30, 2013 If you are going to shell out the bucks for a brand new compressor - it would behoove you to use only verified refrigerant and compressor oil you are sure will match. I doubt that cheap stuff called "R-12" on Ebay is genuine. They say it's green. How the heck does that happen? That is, unless it's used and reclaimed and the "green" argument is made because it was put inside a safe can instead of being released to the atmosphere in a rotting out car. You say you have a friend who is EPA certified? If so, I assume he has the required reclaimer and a refrigerant analyzer? I'd like to know if he's actually tested any of the cheap Ebay stuff? At ;least with 134A - you know what you are getting and can be 100% sure the compressor oil will be compatible and the refrigerant not flammable (like some bogus R-12 is). To each his own. If it was mine - I'd put a new $20 idler bearing on the old pump and then stick a vacuum on the system. if no leaks - I'd then pressurize the system and test with positive instead of negative pressure. if no leak the compressor is probably fine. If you DO find leaks - it's just as likely to be a older R-12 type rubber hose or an o-ring leak. The bearing noise does not mean the compressor has ever even been used. it turns all the time whenver the engine runs - regardless if the AC is used or not. If I was putting in a brand new compressor - I'd be using 134A for sure along with new rubber hoses and all new o-rings. A cheap investment. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WME Posted April 30, 2013 Share Posted April 30, 2013 Darn all my cars are r134 and I have 1 26 lb and 1 10 lb bottle of R12. Lately R12 prices are going down with fewer cars needing it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zero Posted April 30, 2013 Share Posted April 30, 2013 Darn all my cars are r134 and I have 1 26 lb and 1 10 lb bottle of R12. Lately R12 prices are going down with fewer cars needing it. There's a 27 lb. can of Dupont R-12 on Ebay right now and so far the bidding is up to $400. I wouldn't call that cheap or a "pride reduction." Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Odyssey 4x4 Posted April 30, 2013 Author Share Posted April 30, 2013 I hear R12 is better at cooling, especially at an idle when air is not moving across the coil. I wouldn't mind spending a little more for the purpose of not having to convert and also having the better performance. I will be sure what I order on Ebay is the real R12 and I will be ordering by the 12 Oz can. Maybe I'll end up doing 134, I'll decide when I get around to doing that project! The truck occasionally makes the noise whether the ac is on or off. When the ac is turned on, the clutch does start turning so I know the compressor is at least not locked up. If it had no refrigerant in it it shouldn't work at all, unless these do not have a low pressure switch? Also regarding the R12 on ebay, I have not looked into any newer stuff. All the ones I saw are Dupont and appear to be cans that just sat around for a long time and are not currently produced. My EPA friend has all kinds of stuff, he has done residential HVAC for 30+ years and is a fix it type of person for any application included mechanics. I am sure he will be able to take care of it for me. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Oldiesel Posted April 30, 2013 Share Posted April 30, 2013 One can do the test for the certification on line basically open book ,i think the cost is around $15. Around here the price is down,the place i used to buy it has stopped handling it because of lack of demand,most cars that old the A/C just does not get repaired. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
waiter Posted April 30, 2013 Share Posted April 30, 2013 R12 can be had on e-bay $25 a can. If your doing a top off and only need one can, Try and get R12, but Freeze 12 would be OK for a top off.If your doing a full evac with new dryer and o-rings,replace the oil in the compressor and go with 134. (Replace as much of the oil you can with Ester oil - DO NOT USE PAG OILEster oil is not as good as mineral, but is comparable with mineral and also R12 and R134.134 is about 20% less efficient than 12, but will cool down OK. If you open the system, replace all o-rings on all hose and tube connectors, ( fittings on evap, condenser, dryer, etc.) they are not flare fittings. If you replace the compressor, also replace the dryer. (don't forget to put oil in the compressor, most ship without oil) OH YAH - I have a couple cases of R12 that I bought about 20 years ago. I use it on my old cars, I also have the EPA certification. JOhn Mc 88 Dolphin 4 Auto Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Maineah Posted April 30, 2013 Share Posted April 30, 2013 Thinking about using Freeze-12 refrigerant? You may be surprised to learn that it is nothing more than a blend of R134a and HCFC 142. Most of the "alternative" refrigerants are really nothing more than a slightly different blend with a fancy can. If you are unlucky, you actually get propane, butane, or some other flammable gas. ALTERNATIVE REFRIGERANT BLENDS Free Zone (RB-276). Supplied by Refrigerant Gases, this blend contains 79% R-134a, 19% HCFC-142b and 2% lubricant. Freeze 12. Supplied by Technical Chemical, this blend contains 80% R-134a and 20% HCFC-142b. FRIGC (FR-12). Made by Intermagnetics General and marketed by Pennzoil, this blend contains 59% R-134a, 39% HCFC-124 and 2% butane. GHG-X4 (Autofrost & McCool Chill-It). This blend is supplied by Peoples Welding Supply and contains 51% R-22, 28.5% HCFC-124, 16.5% HCFC-142b and 4% isobutane (R-600a). GHG-HP. Also supplied by Peoples Welding Supply, this blend contains 65% R-22, 31% HCFC-142b and 4% isobutane (R-600a). Hot Shot\Kar Kool. Supplied by ICOR, this blend contains 50% R-22, 39% HCFC-124, 9.5% HCFC-142b and 1.5% isobutane (R-600a). When they started pricing R12 out of the market I saw a lot of strange stuff in A/C systems including propane many reclaim systems were contaminated with the stuff. Note with some of the listed fake R12 does contain some pretty flammable stuff. If you like to live on the fringe butane does cool pretty well we got quite a few cars from the deep south full of butane. I have added Freeze 12 to the low system in my 87MH but if it was to the point of not working I would have retrofitted it with R134 and called it a day. Part of the retrofit includes the larger R134 fittings so it cannot be confused with R12 those I added after installing the freeze 12 so that others would know that there was some thing more then just R12 in the system. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dolphinite no longer here Posted April 30, 2013 Share Posted April 30, 2013 Maineah, I'm getting ready to recharge the AC system on my '85 Dolphin (22RE). I'm thinking of buying R12 from an eBay seller. Is there a chance I will end up with something other than R12 even if its listed as R12 on the can? John Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
waiter Posted May 1, 2013 Share Posted May 1, 2013 You should be OK. Look for DuPont ALSO Look at the top of the can. if the can has a screw on fitting, its not R12, Its either R134 or a blend.R12 cans are flat on the top, no fittings. (The charge tool clamps on top of the can and punctures it )Look on the cans from IG-LO (DuPont) John Mc 88 Dolphin 4 Auto Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Odyssey 4x4 Posted May 1, 2013 Author Share Posted May 1, 2013 I agree with ^, anything that looks brand new and claims to be some type of green R12 or anything like that is NOT what you want. The real R12 on Ebay is all likely old stuff that has sat for years and as long as the can is not punctured it should be fine. Also what he said about the top type is correct. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zero Posted May 1, 2013 Share Posted May 1, 2013 A reputable seller will provide MSDS data that tells you exacty what you are buying. If no MSDS is availble for a product, I would not buy. That goes for refrigerant and motor oil. It's getting near impossible to tell if motor oil sold as "synthetic" really is without seeing the Materials Safety Data Sheet (MSDS). Here's a link to a reputable refrigerant seller offering MSDS info on all for sale. http://www.refrigerants.com/msds.htm Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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