Sunrader With Concave Roof - How To Pop It Back?

[4Hats]

My just-purchased 18 ft. Sunrader's roof is concave / sagging. I assume that someone stood on top and accidentally popped it down. Now it collects a lot of water... enough to overflow the vent if I were to leave it uncovered in the rain! I've owned a Sunrader before and this is definitely abnormal.

I'm going to try to pop it back up, but before I do, thought I'd ask if anyone has delt with this before.

Thanks!

[linda s]

My just-purchased 18 ft. Sunrader's roof is concave / sagging. I assume that someone stood on top and accidentally popped it down. Now it collects a lot of water... enough to overflow the vent if I were to leave it uncovered in the rain! I've owned a Sunrader before and this is definitely abnormal.

I'm going to try to pop it back up, but before I do, thought I'd ask if anyone has delt with this before.

Thanks!

Mine does that too but only slightly. I have heard of others using a board and a jack and jacking it up and leaving it for a while until it stayed up. Don't know if it lasted long though. By 87 they had added a roof beam to prevent this.

Linda S

[4Hats]

Hi Linda... Thanks for the reply... I'm not liking the sound of that! Even if I raise it back up, it's likely to settle back down again? I was imagining a nice clean "pop."

4Hats

[linda s]

_{No it doesn't work like that. I do think some had some sucess but fiberglass that has been deformed does not like to go back into place. I've pushed up on mine tons of times and it never popped back iinto place. I would think leaving it jacked up for a long time in hot sun might keep it there longer. Fiberglass is chemically hardened ,}

_{not heat formed so I truly just don't know. I do know one guy who had beams made for his by a metal shop . He had to remove top cabinets to install it though.}

_Linda

[linda s]

is there an air conditioner up there

Linda

[waiter]

OK, I just had a thought for how to fix this. This should work, but I'm not familiar with the Sunrader roof, so someone will need to look at this if it sounds like it might be doable.

I do a lot of work in fiberglass work, I built an airplane (www.iflyez.com). Being the Sunrader is fiberglass this falls right up my alley.

I need someone to post a couple photos of the roof, front / back and side views.

Heres my thoughts:

1) Make a "T" out of 2x4 The top of the "T" is maybe 2 ft, the length of the "T" is a couple inches longer than your inside ceiling.

2) you also need a piece of 3/4 inch 1x1 ft plywood for the floor.

3) Put the top of the "T" against the ceiling, and the bottom on the plywood, Wedge the "T" to push the ceiling back up to a little past where its supposed to be.

4) OK, heres the part that will re-inforce the roof and keep this from happening again.

Instead of putting a support beam inside across the ceiling, put it on the roof.

Look at the drawing to help clarify.

Cut a piece of 2x2 that spans across the roof from side to side, about in the middle of the roof where it drooped.

Mark where the 2x2 will be mounted and then sand the fiberglass roof to expose the glass, i.e. no point or gelcoat. sand. We need about 3-4 inches on either side and the ends of where the 2x2 will be mounted. this needs to be glass or our glass will not bond to it.

Round the corners of the 2x2 so that our glass will be able to do a nice bend around the corners.

Cut three or four strips of fiberglass long enough and wide enough so that they will drape over the 2x2, and then extend about 3 inches on either side and ends of the 2x2. The fibers should be oriented at 45 deg across the 2x2

You should also get a couple strips of Dacron to use as peel ply. More on that in a moment.

test fit the 2x2 and the glass cloth, it should lay flat with no gaps between it and the roof.

OK, here we go,

Mix epoxy, paint the area of the roof where the 2x2 will touch, paint the bottom of the 2x2 and lay it into position. Now paint the entire 2x2 and the roof area that was sanded. Our glass will be sticking to this

If you know about FLOX, I would use flox to adhere the 2x2 to the roof, then run a bead of FLOX all the way around the 2x2 so the glass will make a nice bend where the 2x2 meets the roof

Do one glass layer at a time, drape the glass over the 2x2 and onto the roof, paint the glass until its completely wet with epoxy, repeat this with the other three layers. squeegee or stipple to make sure the glass is wet before doing the next layer.

Lay peel ply around the edges of the glass where it transitions onto the roof, wet out the peel ply (This will make nice smooth transition when cured, and you "peel" the peel ply off.

Let cure for 24 to 48 hours.

Remove the peel ply, do a light sanding of the glass, prime, fill and paint as desired.

Let me know if someone tries this, and I can walk you thru it with a little more detail.

John Mc

88 Dolphin 4 Auto

[WME]

Johns method should work, but you mayhave to warp the wood if the stock roof has a curve too it.

Make a trough out of plastic sheeting, place a brick at eack end of the beam and a couple in the middle. Add water and wait until the bow is correct. Let the wood dry for several days, then glass away.

Make two beams if you have roof mounted a/c

[waiter]

WME - Ether that or use a 2x4 and custom cut it to match the curvature. Structurally, what we're doing is adding a box beam to suspend the roof on. Yes, if you have a A/C unit, you could put one in front and one in the back of the unit. Guarantee your roof will never sag again.

I have a lot of experience with glass and could probably knock this project out in a couple hours.

John Mc

[bajadulce]

Well the beauty of fiberglass is that you can do just about anything you want.

Agree w/ John that some fiberglass "ribs" added to the topside of the coach would provide excellent strength and damn near permanent solution to your sagging roof. That is a really well laid out and thorough instruction/guide too! Good details in the process.

And while a 2x2 contributes to the strength of the rib, it is the glass itself, more specifically the PROFILE glass of the rib, that provides all the integrity. So 4" of glass "profile" on a 1x4 would actually be stronger than a 2x2. Even some 3/4" plywood strips (stood upright) could be custom shaped to fit the contour of the roof. Think vertical not width with "joists". Heavy duty floor Ibeams that hold up houses are made of OSB plywood for instance!.

With that said, I'd propose taking these ribs one step further and engineer a nice "roof rack" out of fiberglass tubing (possibly even ABS) that serves double time being "ribs" holding up the roof. Everyone wants a rack for their kayaks and other must have things. Tubing would mean you might even be able to store some gear inside (fishing poles, tarp poles etc)

Fiberglass also likes to stick to other protroleum products better than wood.

[waiter]

Steve - Roof rack - I was thinking that exact same thing as I was doing this writeup.

Your correct in your structural analysis. In this case, the 2x2 is stiff and is contributing to the overall support, but its in the form of whats called a shear web.

The top of the 2x2 is operating in compression, the bottom is operating in expansion, and the sides are acting as a shear web (trying to prevent the top from compressing and the bottom from expanding.

I was originally thing of a 2x4, but that may look funny, so I went with the 2x2, a 1x2 vertically would probably be OK also.

John Mc

88 Dolphin 4 Auto

[4Hats]

Thanks for all the thoughtful replies. I had not thought of a roof-mounted exterior support (ribs): great idea.

My main concern re. the sagging roof is that water will collect on the roof and overflow the vent. I'm not so worried about head room inside. Other ideas I'm considering include:

1. Eliminating the vent entirely and putting a new vent in the front area where there is no sagging;

2. Looking into the possibility of extending the lip on the vent to about 1 1/2 to 2" high so that the "swimming pool" on the roof can't fill higher than the vent.

Regarding the roof-mounted exterior support suggestions, since I neither have a shop nor fiber glas skills, I'm wondering if this might work as an alternative approach:

1, With all due caution, jack up the roof from the inside as far as I dare.

2. Go up on the roof and measure the resulting curvature... then construct two supports (ribs) to match the curvature: each support would rest on the L and R sides of the body: one would lie crosswise in front of the vent and one would lie crosswise behind the vent (possibly incorporating the roof rack idea).

3. Get two metal strips, about 2" wide and 1/8" thick (3' to 5' long, depending on the available space inside the motorhome). Drill holes through these about 2" apart along the center line.

4. Working inside the vehicle, install screws through the metal strip, up through the roof, and into the exterior roof-mounted support (caulking liberally of course).

What do you think?

4Hats

[WME]

Your plan should work. Think about reversing things though, run the beams inside. Make them out of good wood, stained and poly coated. They would add to the class of the place inside.

BTW Fiber glassing is not real high tech work. Just a little planning and follow Johns steps.

[Derek up North]

BTW Fiber glassing is not real high tech work.

Agreed. Buy a cheap kit at the store and practice on some scrap wood and paneling.

If I had a Sunrader and some fiberglass, both in the same place, I'd remove and glass over the holes for the 14 clearance lights. That's 42 less places to leak. And I wouldn't start drilling more holes in the roof!

[linda s]

Exactly what would be the point of the clearance lights anyway other than for decoration?

Because it's required by law. You don't have them on yours so your lucky.

Linda S

[Derek up North]

Exactly what would be the point of the clearance lights anyway other than for decoration?

Yes, they're required by law if you're over a certain width. I've no idea what the theory is. Low flying aircraft? Helicopter landing pad on the roof? They certainly won't stop you driving into a low gas station canopy!!

I'm not sure if any official person is going to bother giving you a ticket if they're removed. I've thought about rewiring the 3 rear ones in the center to act as a 3rd brake light.

[WME]

Clearance light are required by DOT on any vehicle over 80" wide. So keep them working or let some of the air out of your MH

[RHS]

I had sagging roof on '81 sunrader (had 3' snow on it when I bought it) I cut several 1 x 2s just hair bit longer than opening used good grade construction adhesive 2 x 4 from floor forcing 1 x 2 & roof up left over night 3 yrs. later still good. The extra length helps keep the bow I used cedar 1 x 2s (what I had)

[RHS]

forgot to mention I was down to the fiberglass roof cleaned glass before glueing

[4Hats]

Waking up at 3 am with a BFO (blinding flash of the obvious), I realized that my plan to put a "rib" across the roof, in front of and in back of the vent would create a rectangular swimming pool with my vent as the drain, unless I could jack the roof up enough to drain water away from the vent. My preliminary jacking efforts don't even come close... maybe with a prolonged lift and some warm sun, but for now it will only raise a little. I appreciated the suggestion from Ya Baby! (put the "rib" inside) but there are also some complications with the cabinets.

I'm going on a two week road trip next Monday and could hit some wet weather, so decided to put a cover over the vent as an interim action, as follows:

First I built a 4" high 16 1/2" by 16 1/2" square "wall" out of good plywood. Then I built a hatch cover for "the wall" (17 x 17 roughly, with a 1" "lip" hanging down. I hinged this hatch cover to the square "wall" frame and worked out a latch for the hatch. I sprayed the whole works (except the hinges) with several layers of Plasticote, I placed this around and over the vent and attached it to the roof with butyl rubber caulk and four right angle brackets (mounted on the inside of the square and screwed into the lip of the vent flange).

So... the general plan is: while parked in dry weather the hatch cover will be unlatched: when I open the vent from the inside of the rig, the vent cover will lift the hatch cover. In bad weather or while traveling or in storage I'll keep the latch on.

Down the road I may take on the roof sag project, but for now I think this will keep the rainwater from overflowing my vent!

[WME]

So cut some notches in the beam. Or a notch in the cabinet. See if you can find some pics of the factory beams they installed on the later Raders

[bajadulce]

Sorry there's no easy fix to your problem, but for sure need to gain some sort of positive arch whatever you eventually do. Flat roofs are a poor design as they don't stay "flat" without substantial support. RV manufacturers want to be able to sell rigs w/ lots of goodies on top of roofs.. Guess it's easier to start w/ a flat one. Roofs instead should have some positive arch with rooftop accessories designed around this obstacle. Arches support themselves and shed water. Flat roofs eventually just sink and collect.

@ roof not appearing to budge:

Your floor might be giving in the other direction as you try to jack up the roof! Sunrader floors are notoriously flimsy and lack support. Might need to distribute the weight of the jack throughout the floor when you try this again next spring.

Some sort of covered light A-frame (tarped or light plywood) above your roof might be a lifesaver to get you thru the winter (parked) for now.

[bajadulce]

Wet snow! Wow, that's a whole new equation. I think there was a conversation on this forum in which a member built a temp hardsided canopy for atop her/his rig to survive the winter's onslaught. Might have to go to the extreme to battle such extremes.

@ adding support:

You seem very handy and prob would be a relatively easy fix/upgrade for you. The newer Sunraders have some additional ceiling support to what prob is the same fiberglass "mold". Count your blessings your rader never had an AC unit for sure!

My own redesigned roof is actually pretty flat atop (exact width of the solar panels) but still has a little positive curvature due to the small radius in the plywood/fiberglass "beams". My roof is pretty damn light construction tho, and don't know if it could handle anything substantial like the snow you're describing. Ya, I "stood" on it once very gingerly just to say I did, but I imagine 3' of snow weighs more than me?

What about solar panels and snow? I don't see myself ever staying in a winter environment, but what do others do about snow accumulating on solar panels? How much can the glass support?

[linda s]

I have to admit I just don't understand why some Sunrader roofs sink and others don't. My Toyota did have the heavy old original Ac unit when I got it so I think that must have been the cause there. My Nissan Sunrader though spent 10 years near Fairbanks Ak and another 2 years in upstate NY unattended in both places. I can't even imagine the snow that must have acumilated every winter but it has no roof sag at all. Is it possible that weight plus heat contribute to the sag and the Nissan was saved by the cold? Maybe you fiberglass people know.

Linda S

[waiter]

Epoxi has an exothermic "memory". Thats the temperature it cured at, if you raise the temperature beyond that point, the epoxy softens a little, and re-cures at the new higher temperature. The cycling of hot temperature could cause a gradual sag.

I would guess this could be a problem with Sunraders that have A/C and lived their early lives in the south or south/west. It could also be a problem for Sunraders that the shells were built during the winter cold months.

John Mc

888 Dolphin 4 Auto

[waiter]

I was thinking more like the sun direct exposure. this will rise a white surface to 140 degrees.

JOhn Mc

88 Dolphin 4 Auto

[linda s]

You might think of Fairbanks as a cold place but in the summer temperatures in June, July and August the temperatues can be in the 90s. July record temp is 99 and don't forget the sun does not set during that time of year. I know it sounds wierd to think Alaska has that kind of weather anywhere in the state but it is does. Extreme temperature variations in that local area.

Yes I know it warms up, but the weight of the heavy snow would only have been in the winter of course. Nissan has no AC so there would be no excess weight in the summer

Linda S

[bajadulce]

I haven't inspected nor looked at many toyota motorhomes outside my own. And so I'm not as experienced as the other guru's found here and on yahoo group. My knowledge of the Sunrader is simply based on what was presented to me. I'm not a boat builder nor much of a car builder. I build homes. My camper is just a hobby. With that said, I can tell you of the shortcomings of both the floor and roof of my own rig and what I believe caused the failure.

Both the roof and the floor of the sunrader are of composite construction with a rigid foam interior. The foam by itself would never be able to support a span like a roof or floor. Nor would the fiberglass. Bonded together however, they make for a strong composite. When the Sunrader rolled off the showroom, I'm sure the roofs and floors all felt very "solid". Over time, the bond that kept these composites together (plywood to foam in the case of the floor) lost it's bite and you are left with a stack of flimsy materials acting on their own rather than an engineered system.

Heat may very well accelerate this delamination no doubt, but I'd think weight of something like an AC unit under the constant strain of dips and bumps of the road would have the most effect (heavy foot traffic effecting floor). Once you have delamination and/or a dip in your roof, it most certainly compounds itself especially if there is water involved. And if water should find its way into the composite structure, the foam will act as a sponge as it did around my AC unit for several feet in all directions. And wet sponges aren't light adding further to the dilema soaking up more water!

The floor is the same scenario with older composites having to struggle to hold their integrity because of the expansive spans they must endure. The fix is simple in the form of support as Sunrader added some ceiling joists/beams to their interiors in later models. Unfortunately there was no simple solution for the floor other than adding additional under frame work.. which is easily another topic all together.

The proposed joists glassed to the top of the fiberglass rig are definitely a good idea as they don't impede on the immediate headroom. Tho they will technically be "pulling" on the upper sandwich layer of the composite construction. And while they may fix the immediate sag in the roof, the ceiling might just continue to sag if the laminates are compromised. Supporting the composite roof from Inside the cab, such as what RHS did, would prob be more sound, but at the cost of headroom as well.

Not everyone has the benefit/luxury of working with a gutted shell and limitations as to how much work can be done is dictated by cabinetry and basically not making a huge mess! Battling a sagging roof and/or floor without tearing things apart would be a tough challenge to be sure. Adding a piece of plywood atop the floor is an attractive "fix" without having to make a huge mess.

Anyways good luck w/ your battle and always enjoy reading about others creative efforts/ideas in their solutions win or fail.

Edit:

Also moved this to general forums as it doesn't seem to quite fit Greg's intended "appliance" tech section.

[RHS]

The '81 that I repaired had a broken roof vent & the whole interior was soaked the upper cabinets were mostly on the floor. I stripped it out & redid the interior except for the bath. Sunrader liked to use particle board & plywood strips for framing. With everything out it really is not that difficult to put in new cross 1x2s in place. If they are longer than the span, once they are in place it is amazing how strong they are you can get on the roof and see. Glue new styrofoam between the 1x2s and cover with thin plywood. The upper cabinets actually add support to the roof. Trying to push up roof without redoing cross members just does not seem to work very well at least it did not for me. If the cabinets are intact they come out relatively easily it just looks difficult. Some of the early ones did not put plywood on the ceiling but I think is a better way to go. Good luck. I have another one to do this winter.

[86rader]

Have you ever considered just giving the water a place to go?

Find the low spot. Drill a hole, maybe a half inch. Epoxy a piece of 1/2" pvc in the hole with a 90 degree elbow. Run a piece of the pvc along the roof over to the side. Drill another hole to exit onto the side of the roof where it steps down near the side. Use a piece of 1x2 wood with a channel routed in it to go over the pvc to trim it out.

Don't forget to put some sort of coarse screen over the drain so it doesn't clog.

[needsunenergy]

Im in the dilemma of having a saggy roof on one side but cannot afford to gut the interior ceiling. would attaching fiberglass rods across the roof help? something like this

http://www.tapplastics.com/product/plastics/plastic_rods_tubes_shapes/fiberglass_rod/159

I was thinking if i can "pop Up" the saggy roof and then fiberglass these rod to the roof to keep the ceiling up.

Is it possible to jack the ceiling up if the interior ceiling and cabinets still in place?