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The Shakedown Drive, I think I actually conned Murphy!!! Or did he pull one over on me???


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It's been a little over two years now since I got my Mini Cruiser.  The initial pre-purchase test drive went well.  Parked it, paid for it, and it wouldn't restart.  It got towed home.  Since then it has had a lot of adventures attempting to leave my driveway.  Starting with the transmission not going into reverse so I could back it out. 

 

I have wrenched for 25yrs now, and in that time developed an allergy to ATF fluid.  Especially old fluid will cause me to blister and break out in hives.  I have grown to HATE any transmission related work.   So in my first few weeks of ownership I ended up changing the trans filter and dropping the pan several times and essentially doing 3-4 flushes in my driveway.

 

I got reverse back, but I had to really rev it up to get it to start going.  A few short drives around my neighbor hood and each time it got better.   But it sat for ages since the lights were, mostly not there...  In reverse it would have a shudder, but it would go.  I bought manuals on tearing down the transmission, but it loomed over my head.  I would rather pay the $1500 to replace it and bribe one of my coworkers to do it, then do it myself.  I have a valve body sourced and sitting in my cart until finally somebody else must have bought it.  We knew transmission replacement was probably going to need to happen.  And nobody wanted to buy it with the transmission messed up.  

 

We took it for a decent test drive with a potential buyer, and it was god awful slow.  The transmission scared her away.  I got to keep the evil beast, and was really starting to like it.   

 

But tonight, all was finally well with the world.  Lights all installed, fluids checked, and generally a good bill of health.  So I loaded up the spare, some tools and went for my third test drive, but the first actual shakedown.   

 

Man had I forgotten how SLOW it was...  And at the gas station it was shuddering BAD in reverse, once the trans fluid was hot.  I drove it around a little more, pondering the need to sort out the need to check timing and try to figure out why it was falling so flat.

 

The transmission was shuddering REALLY badly when I backed it into the driveway.  But I was home.  Turned the truck off, and then it hit me.  The smell. The first whip was of hot ATF fluid.  Then burning clutch, but wait I have an automatic.  Then it slowly started to seep in.  I was smelling the brakes.  Huh, I wonder .  And sure enough, the rear drums were smoking hot...

 

Gee, I wonder if partially locked up rear drums would cause the truck to be a wee bit slow, and shudder in reverse?!  

 

Oh well.  My next least favorite job is doing rear drum dually brakes on the ground.  But $200 in rear brake parts and not $1500+ for a transmission is something I can live with.  And tell that Murphy fellow I am replacing the transmission.      

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I'm going say the reverse clutch pack is toast. That is an all clutch transmission it has no bands, reverse clutch pack is all by it's self no relation to the forward clutch pack. It is a lower ratio so it's less likely to slip. Rear brakes with drums should actually be less likely to lock going backwards because of the leading trailing brake shoe setup. That trans did have issues also with the rear support bushing but that effected all ranges. Haven't done one of those transmission in close to 20 years but something is sticking in the dust in my brain about reverse clutch.

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The transmission only has 32,000 miles on it. I smelled hot as heck brakes last night and could barely touch the drums. 
 

We have ALL thought it was the transmission from day one. There is a pretty substantial thread working on the various problems. 
 

But my rear brakes are MOST DEFIANTLY  locking up. I think it might be as simple as the parking brakes being partially stuck on. Whatever the case I will tear into it tonight or tomorrow, figure out what I need and post updates on the build thread lol. 

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The lever that the cable attaches too has a tendency to rust up in the backing plate pretty common.

 

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Hummmm wonder if I can free it up from behind without taking the wheels off and it all apart?  Meh. I should probably just take it all apart and inspect everything anyways. Would be really surprised if the 37 year old wheel cylinders AREN’T leaking….  Already deep in, might as well go the rest of the way.  Going to inspect and likely replace all the soft lines.  Probably replace everything in the back, and everything in the front. Larger master cylinder is already in the parts pile waiting to go on. 
 

She will feel better with new brakes all around anyways. Then maybe she won’t notice the turbo. 😀

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Posted (edited)

CRAP WTH?!  

 

On 1/2/2022 at 8:54 AM, Maineah said:

I'm going say the reverse clutch pack is toast. That is an all clutch transmission it has no bands, reverse clutch pack is all by it's self no relation to the forward clutch pack.

 

Maineah, I guess this possibility is STILL sitting on the table...  DA$%#.  So I have the rear wheels up off the ground slightly with the axle sitting on jack stands, so still weighted.  And the wheels turn freely with no brake drag in either direction.  

 

As I drove it my brakes got harder, like I was loosing vacuum assist.  And by the time I got back, my drums WERE smoking hot.  Like actual smoke coming off of them.  So SOMETHING is likely wrong with my brakes, but I am at a loss right now for what exactly that might be...   I know it is easy to not release the parking brake all the way, but I can't imagine that's what happened.  I double checked everything before I rolled out.    

 

So I still have the original 1985 master cylinder on the truck.  With the larger 1991 V6 front brakes.  I guess my brake bias could be wrong and doing more work with the rears.  Maybe?  Simple fix, put the MC on I already have.  Thats happening shortly anyways.  I left the rear end jacked up so I can get underneath it to do the brake bleed.    

 

ATM, I didn't bother pulling the rear wheels off and inspecting further.  They turn freely enough I am not still thinking they are dragging in reverse due to being frozen up.  

 

Underneath, I see some sort of load sensing valve in the brake line.  I need to study up on this and see if it could be a culprit, or even just make bleeding the rear brakes harder to do.  Anything to look out for on this???    

 

But back to the power issue.  I had serious trouble getting it above 45 in the shakedown drive.  It would start to move, eventually, if I kept my foot to the floor when it decided to finally downshift.  And with the exhaust leaks, boy is it LOUD when it does lol.  

 

Is everything I am describing (minus shuddering in reverse) sound normal?  Or do I need to look closer?  If this is the power I can expect on a stock setup, then turbocharging it is not going to be an option, but a necessity.  

 

I have seen mention that these engines are super sensitive to the timing being even slightly off.  Obviously, I need to check that ASAP.  But I couldn't get the jumper to activate the Check Engine blinks light even.  Time to investigate this a little further.

 

So the shuddering in reverse, if it is a transmission issue that only effects reverse, I can live with.  If there is more going on and my tranny is slipping in forward (didn't feel like it, but I am no transmission expert), then the tranny gets replaced.  I suspect the kick down isn't adjusted correctly.  

 

I didn't intend for this to turn into a "please diagnose this" thread, but now I am uncertain exactly where my issue might lie.  And Murphy has gotten me, and is most defiantly laughing at me now...  As I have said elsewhere, I can swap in my MegaSquirt and start tuning this beast in less time than sorting out the factory engine management.  But I don't want to chase a lack of power by doing that, if it is a transmission issue that needs to be solved first.

 

And if these really do suck that badly on power....  Well we gotta go fix that!  But as it sits, 40mph is where it happily gets up too.  Anything more, is a struggle.       

 

 

Edited by thewanderlustking
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i have run into flex brake line failing where fluid can go to the brakes, but is blocked from returning.  would account for no power.  ive also run into master cylinders incorrectly adjusted where the piston is held from returning completely by the pushrod from the pedal.

  one more... ive found brake system contaminated by someone adding engine oil to the brake resivoir. all the seals in the system will swell up locking up everything

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the lever arraingement is an adjustable proportioning valve. a heavy load compresses the springs allowing more pressure to the rear brakes.  this allows for no brake lock up when not loaded

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Does my "lack of power" issue sound worse than the normal "these things have no power" issues?  

 

I don't want to chase imaginary ghosts.  But also everything you describe as brake failure points is defiantly suspect in my system.  If the brake fluid isn't contaminated with something else (didn't see oil spots) it is probably 10-20yrs past time to flush it.  LOL...     

 

No matter what the outcome, before I take this out on a long road trip, I am replacing all the rubber flex lines and the master cylinder for sure.  While perhaps an overkill, I will likely also replace front calipers, pads and rotors, and back wheel cylinders.  Rear hardware, shoes, and drums I will assess first before replacing.  Most likely wheel bearings and seals all around and driveshaft u-joints.  Since I am doing this all myself, it won't cost me more than $500 in parts.  I will take a really close look at the adjustable parts of the brake system when I put in the bigger MC.

 

I may need to go for another shakedown with a laser temp gun in the passenger seat.  I know that something was certainly going wrong with the rears, and they got a lot hotter than I think they should have.  I should see what the actual temps are, and if the problem reoccurs.           

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yea. mine zips up to 60 pretty easily.  you have issues. i would verify brake sys integrity and ign timing before going any further

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All about the Load Sensing Propo Valve (LSPV), there is a Loong post in "engines" section. 

IMHO, KISS a rebuilt transmission and a 4.88 rear axle will give you a very useful 4 speed automatic.

Edited by WME
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Extech, this is really comforting to know.  I really don't want to deal with the transmission...  I am starting to explore replacement options, but they need to be pretty straightforward as I am likely going to farm that job out.  Before I go too far down that rabbit hole, I will check over brakes and timing really closely.  

 

Also the EGR.  I suspect something is wrong with it...  I may try out the soda can delete on it to see if that makes a big difference.  The wife has said she wants me to leave it "organic" (whatever that means) and doesn't want me to put a MegaSquirt on it and tune it.  She is too used to seeing me fix other idiots tuning and build problems, and thinks that this will turn into one of those nightmares.  SO I am thinking that it most likely has  a bad Toyota ECU.  You know, the rare hard to find ones for our 22REs.  😆   

 

Thanks WME found it!  I will go read up on that thread.  A quick start on it tells me that it is going to be VERY informative already.  

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Posted (edited)

Okay, defiantly found some problems!  

 

IDIOT WARNING:  Soooo when I went through the wifes pile of paperclips to get a code scanner, I knew enough to grab a silver one and not a plastic coated red, blue, yellow, green, etc one.  But what I DIDN'T realize is that the silver one also had a clear plastic insulator.  😂  

 

Inserting the "scan tool" gets flash code, but does not seem to lock the timing.  

 

Timing was, whacked big time.  I don't think I have it right yet, but once I figure out how to use my timing light again that I probably haven't touched in 10+ years, I should be okay.  It is a really nice computer timing light.  I can push buttons and it changes where it fires, confusing me much more than need be.  The timing mark on the pulley was about 2" to the left.  

 

Alright here is where my LSPBV is currently set.  Seems fairly balanced with a slight bias towards more front brakes.    

 

82C5949C-061E-4510-8F7F-C4781BF81321.jpeg

 

I am trying to wrap my head around that combination...  I have the stock master cylinder, but bigger front calipers.  I would suspect my fronts are barely working...   It would seem that where it is set would help with that.  Ugh.  I probably just need to change the master out and see what happens.  

 

I can't wrap my head on how the current setup would be overheating my rear brakes, unless that valve went bad.  

 

Reading through the LSPBV thread and there is kinda equal argument for removing the valve, and keeping it...  In my case it would seem that is "should" be helping with my mismatched MC.  
 

Not using this as a reason to leave it alone, it sounds like disabling it is smarter. Or as I suspect in my case it may have failed, eliminating it completely.   
 

I may edit this and drag the LSPBV bits into that thread later…

Edited by thewanderlustking
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  • 4 weeks later...

They were famous for bound cables and internal parking brake levers rusting up primarily because they were never used most people just put them in park and called it good. Because the rear brake valve on the MH is all ready in max brake mode because of the camper weight it probably is not an issue.

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You should not have a stock master cylinder. You should have one for the dually. They are different. Your load sensor needs to be adjusted farther up. That was the whole reason for that thread , to explain it. Because of the weight it should be close to max and yours is nowhere near max. 

Linda S

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I have the OPPOSITE problem that most have.  My rear brakes are working TOO HARD with an unloaded RV.  I have had two Toyota Master techs, one local, and one over on the Yotatec forum, confirm this. 

 

Let me be very clear, my rear brakes are doing TOO MUCH work with an empty RV.  My rear brakes are locking up before the fronts.  I have proven this.  I have also proven that there are no parking brake cable issues, or lever issues.    

 

This is correct, my load sensing valve is nowhere near maxed out, and yet the rear brakes are heating up and doing TOO MUCH WORK.  Hence the confusion I was having, ESPECIALLY after reading that thread on the LSPV and also going through the actual Toyota technical manual for it.  

 

And I do have a dually master cylinder, unless in 1985 the factory decided to randomly install a non dually one on a dually truck.  This could well be a grey area though, since these trucks came with the 5 lug fronts...      

 

What I don't currently have installed, is the master cylinder for a 1991 with a V6.  And I have the larger V6 brakes.  The larger V6 calipers have bigger pistons, so when used with the smaller 1985 dually 1 Ton Master cylinder, the front calipers have more brake fluid volume, hence don't squeeze down as far.  The rears are still moving the same volume of fluid, so they are working harder.  

 

So my brakes are not frozen ON, or LOCKED up technically, but they are LOCKING up before the fronts under hard braking.  

 

It would be easy enough to pop the 91 master onto the truck, but I discovered another potential issue.  The booster for the 1985 is single stage, the 1991 is a dual stage.  It probably explains the different MC lengths...  The actual fix, for now, might be against the grain and to adjust the rod DOWN for more front brake bias, not up.       

 

The timing has been sorted out.  I need to get it off the jack stands and go test drive it again.  Unfortunately I have been down with acute bronchitis for almost a month now.  And the garage door was broken, with the jack stuck in the garage.  So motivation any project, especially unnecessary ones requiring other ones just to get too, wasn't happening.  

 

I finished my adapter harness though!!!  

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited by thewanderlustking
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  • 3 weeks later...

Well shakedown 2 went MUCH better!  My best friend came by today and we spent a couple hours poking at it.  

 

I am going to summarize it here real quick, and post up a more detailed info on my build thread.  

 

Overall we give the brakes an 80% passing score.  There is room for improvement, but they are safe and solid at least.  

 

Good news is the transmission feels fine, still shuddering in reverse.  BUT it isn't consistent and you can free it up by going forward.  It is the rear brake shoes catching.  So sometime in the next week or so we will tear the rear brakes down and inspect.  Hopefully a simple CLA (clean/lube/adjust) solves it all.      

 

So Maineah probably hit it right on the nose, the rear levers and all that are sticking.  I bet on the first shakedown either I hadn't gotten the parking brake fully off, or they had partially frozen on.  

 

Extech, I still would say it "zips to 60 easily" but it gets there, eventually...  

 

I am going to take WME's advice of the upgraded rear axle ration as soon as I have some scratch for one, and find it.  I am hoping that Warrior is still at the local scrapyard.  

 

Should the 1991 Warrior with the 6cyl have the correct 4.88 rear I want???  

 

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1 hour ago, thewanderlustking said:

 

 

I am going to take WME's advice of the upgraded rear axle ration as soon as I have some scratch for one, and find it.  I am hoping that Warrior is still at the local scrapyard.  

 

Should the 1991 Warrior with the 6cyl have the correct 4.88 rear I want???  

 

Unlikely, although some later model v-6 units had a 4.56. Most of the 4.88s are in Pickups or 4Runners  with factory big tires

FWIW, I had a modded 22RE and is would easily do 80+ mph. Handling/brakes were of course spooky at those speeds and MPG was a joke. 

Seriously good information...https://www.marlincrawler.com/

Edited by WME
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Okay with some fairly minor effort, I can verify what ratio I have with the tire rotation and driveshaft counting trick.  But it looks like it is a decent bet that it is a 4.10 in it???

 

I suspect finding the 4.88 rear end is going to be mildly problematic locally.  If I do find it, it lists for $100.  Not bad at all!  In fact for $100 and a quick bang out/in job, it might even be worth a less than ideal ratio if it is still an improvement over what I have.   Changing the ring and pinion isn't as budget friendly, but for me it won't be too bad as I don't have to worry about labor.  Pinion set is $200, and parts kit is $150 for about $350.  I could probably cheap out and not get most of the kit as the truck is very low mileage.  But the effort is the same and not really worth saving $100.  

 

I also found 5.29 ring and pinion kits.  The 4.88 and 5.29 options are hard to find locally or online at any reasonable price as an assembly.  So I would be doing a ring/pinion kit and parts kit.  The 4.56 though I can probably get for $100 and just pop it right in.   A quick 1-2hrs in the driveway too.  The rebuild kits would have to be done at the shop and probably be a few good hours at least.  Although I don't necessarily have to take the RV....  Just the 3rd member...  

 

I have spent about an hour hunting and reading up on the Marlin Crawler and also on LCE, plus some other random sites that came up.  Lots of info related to crawlers and putting big tires on, but not getting a clear picture on the effects of changing the ratio while leaving tire size alone.  Let me see if I can grok this  out.  So if I am understanding all this correctly moving up say from 4.10 to a 4.88 would increase torque, but do so at the cost of higher rpm.  Higher RPM though also means the transmission more happily can go into overdrive yes?

 

So if this is the case, then why not use a 5.29 ring and pinion set???  Is this too much of a change and going to tank my fuel economy???  If the 5.29 gives me enough bump in "perceived power" AKA torque to eliminate the need for a turbo kit or other engine modifications, its looking like a nice option.  

 

Or, what about the smaller bump up but MUCH cheaper 4.56?  This is something I could swing this week even.  This leaves much more room for the turbo kit.  

 

It is almost a certainty that it is going to get turbocharged.  The parts aren't too bad and the labor is free.  I have a damaged downpipe plus exhaust leaks, and the replacement is the same cost at a turbo manifold anyways lol.  I have essentially free horsepower and a decent bump in fuel economy, if the turbo is sized correctly.  If the 4.56 is a good compromise when paired with a turbo setup...      

 

With a turbo setup, especially this one (for various reasons), longer gearing is kinda preferred.  I am used to thinking manual transmission terms though.  I am feeling the 4.56 really might be the better option since I will also have the power adder of the turbo.  I am mildly concerned that the 4.88, and especially the 5.29, when paired with a turbo setup might be rolling through the gears too fast/hard. 

 

 

Edited by thewanderlustking
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And WME, the idea of 80+ in this scares me.  I am okay with 70-75 lol....  I suspect it will feel perfect at a 70mph cruise.    

 

But with all that said, if you guys still think the 4.88 is way better than the 4.56 + turbo, I am very cool with that.  Especially if the 4.88 gets decent economy (or at least doesn't dump it) and enough power to forget about the turbo....  

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OK more reading. Find a gear ratio, rpm, mph conversion table, lots of them on the net. 

Needed info tire dia 25.5", transmission 3rd gear 1:1, O/D .688. axle ratio choices 4.1, 4.56, 4.88. 22re max hp 113 @ 4800, max torque 140 @ 3600.  Plug in the numbers and see what rpm, 3rd and OD give you.

The factory OD was great for empty pickups, but about useless for a 6000 lb motorhome. I think rpm in OD was like 2800 rpm. Cruse rpm between max torque and max hp is about right. 

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Well I did the budget math lol….  Been giving this a LOT of thought. The high end cost of the rear gearing swap, is the same as the low end of doing the turbo setup. I am calculating in extra stuff like exhaust. 
 

1). Sticking with just the rear end ratio change to 4.88 I’m sitting at $400-600.   This is rear gear set, possibly hardware kit, new header and exhaust.  It could creep up a little more but it’s basically that, one and done. 

 

2) Put the 4.56 in now. With the realization that I’m likely still going to need/want a turbo later.  Budget wise this doesn’t make sense stacked with the turbo install, unless I pop in a $100 junkyard 4.56. I don’t think $100 it worth it for a used 4.56 when $200-350 puts new 4.88 ones (or whatever I choose) in. My coworker said it’s super easy to setup lash on the bench.


3)  Turbocharge it, see how’s it feels.  This isn't a one and done project though.  I suspect the turbo alone won't cut it without needing the 4.56.  The core parts needed are $600. But it WILL go up some.  -=deleted/redacted pointless info since I am not going to do this...=- 

 

I was thinking about all the different times and threads where WME has said how nice his setup feels with the 4.88.  And while he has done a lot more to his engine than I plan to do (anytime soon anyways), I have the secret weapon of the MegaSquirt engine management.  I can easily tune in probably just as much with that alone.  And make further upgrades when/if the head comes off later.  
  

The rear end gear swap is only going to add about 1-2hrs to doing a rear brake job anyways.   My rear brakes locked up today.  Again.  So it wasn't my imagination before, and the problem is still there.   

 

So I am going to get the rear brakes apart and yank the 3rd member in the next few days.  I am going to do the 4.88 and get the engine sorted out with the MegaSquirt, and keep it simple.  

 

The turbo setup would be the most fun.  But it takes development time to get it all perfected.  If this "development time" occurs while driving it for 4-5hrs on the highway to our vacation spot...  I will never hear the end of it.  EVER.   This isn't a set of known variables either.  It isn't worth the risk or budget.  

 

The 4.88 is affordable.  If I don't need bearings, I can get it in there for $200.  The whole kit though is still just $350.  This is a known variable.  The exhaust, known.  A couple small projects and none will take more than a day to knock out.  

 

I just want this online, it is SO MUCH fun to drive!  I want to spend the time, money, and effort elsewhere.  

Edited by thewanderlustking
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I am going to play with the rear end ratio numbers some still...  But I am convinced the 4.88 is the way to go.  The HP numbers above are really low for my liking.  But I suspect that at least the 4.88 will get me through a summer/fall camping season, and THEN if I decide to toss a turbo in, she will be more receptive to the idea.  

 

So rear brakes and axle gear swap it is!     

 

I am just super glad it is a brake issue, and NOT a transmission one....  

Edited by thewanderlustking
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i think the  revs will be too low in 4th with the 4,88.   

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Wanderlust what % are you using for torque converter slip?

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2 hours ago, Scott iv said:

What about 4.56?  Was thinking about doing a 4.56. 


I will crank the numbers out tonight.  On my phone at work right now lol. 
 

2 hours ago, extech said:

i think the  revs will be too low in 4th with the 4,88.   

 

Maybe not ideal, but the rest look good. And 70 in Florida is annoying the people in the right lane. So some overhead above that isn’t a bad thing. Although the idea of doing 80 is scary….

 

1 hour ago, WME said:

Wanderlust what % are you using for torque converter slip?


The A43D transmission came up it the list and populated everything. I think it put in 5% for the converter slip. Does that sound too low?  
 

I can redo the others and also do the 4.56 if so. 

 

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These numbers are from the simple calculator I posted

A43d, O/D, (.688), 5% slip, 25.5" tire, 60 mph, 4.56 ratio= 2600 rpm... @70 mph 3040 rpm

In 3rd gear (1:1) 60 mph= 3800 rpm, @70=4400 rpm

 FYI 4.88, OD, 60 mph = 2800 rpm...70 mph=3250 rpm

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You dont need to put in the slip. You just need to check the circle " automatic no locking torque "

The 4.88 is the perfect gearing for the rig. 4th gear has enough rpms to hold it in 4th and still get really good economy. 

Linda S 

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Sounds good guys!  I am defiantly gonna go with the 4.88 set.  I don't think I selected the "automatic no locking torque" button...  I will redo the charts and include the 4.56 set in them soon as I have a few spare minutes.  But the charts are from the link Linda posted and it has a drop down for the Toyota A43D transmission.  That and the information WME posted up.  

 

Whatever the case, I am confidently decided on the 4.88 setup.  It gets a lot of votes here!  And it is a simple one and done solution.  I will pester for some advice on brand and verification I have the right set selected probably tomorrow or something this weekend.  

 

Actually let's start with brand.  Richmond is REALLY highly recommended.  My coworker uses it on an 8 second truck.  Its also out of the budget...  I would do it if it was $300, but almost $600 no thanks.  There are some $150 options like this: ebay link  I am feeling the Ninja Gears from I think it was marlin Crawler.  On Amazon I am finding some nice options price wise.  A full kit from National Drivetrain for $248.  

 

It seems like there might be options for spline count?  Anyone know what spline count ours are?   EDIT:  It looks like I want the 27 spline correct?  I just want to be extra sure since our beasts seem to break a lot of "what it should be" rules.  

 

Brand wise, is this a pretty level playing field for our application?  I mean I think I am more likely to win the lottery than make an 8 second Toyota RV...  

Edited by thewanderlustking
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