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Looks like it been four years now that I replaced the rear brakes, bearings and seals and  I've put a few thousand miles on since then. I've always been concerned that the front brakes always locked up on gravel and wet surfaces so I've been doing a lot of reading on this subject. Got to thinking maybe I didnt adjust the rear shoes properly so today I started to investigate. Thought it was going to be as simple as jacking it up, popping off the plug to the little sight window, sticking in a screw driver and adjust the little wheel, was I in for a surprize!  Pulled the drum, Grease and oil everywhere!

Where did I go wrong!?!?

(Pictures wont attach)

Though I dont have the part numbers for the seals handy, I do believe I bought the right ones from Napa

 

 

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1 hour ago, wonderabout said:

Looks like it been four years now that I replaced the rear brakes, bearings and seals and  I've put a few thousand miles on since then. I've always been concerned that the front brakes always locked up on gravel and wet surfaces so I've been doing a lot of reading on this subject. Got to thinking maybe I didnt adjust the rear shoes properly so today I started to investigate. Thought it was going to be as simple as jacking it up, popping off the plug to the little sight window, sticking in a screw driver and adjust the little wheel, was I in for a surprize!  Pulled the drum, Grease and oil everywhere!

Where did I go wrong!?!?

(Pictures wont attach)

Though I dont have the part numbers for the seals handy, I do believe I bought the right ones from Napa

 

 

Did you replace all components of rear brakes including brake cylinders?  Did seals seat properly?  Need to determine if you’re seeing grease from brake fluid or is it differential fluid.  

Check reservoir under hood to see if you’re low.  May also want to check diff fluid so you don’t waste your differential depending on how much fluid was lost (if it was diff fluid). 

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Yes all parts were replaced, cylinders, shoes, springs, bearings, race, wheel seal, axle seal. I thought I did a really good job for a first timer at full floating axle. The cylinders are not leaking. When I pulled the outer bearing out I new something wasnt right as it was coated in a thick oil instead of grease. Pulling the drum off the inner part where the bearings are, out flowed thick oily goo. Did the seals seat properly? I can only guess they were installed properly and did matched in size to the ones that came out. All I can guess is they didnt seal properly, but why?

All new parts have been ordered. How can I be sure the seals a sealing with out going through this again?

Very frustrated!

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The seals are pretty simple to put in.  Make sure your surface is clean and smooth, make sure there are no gouges in the metal that may allow an improper seal.  You can hit it really lightly with some fine grit sandpaper if there are screw driver gouges on the surface, but it shouldn't need it.  

Tap the seal in with either a properly sized driver or a socket of proper size that makes contact only with the outer metal circumference of the seal.  Tap it in lightly until the the metal "ting" sound becomes a solid sound as the metals meet.  

You can also very lightly tap the seals in with a hammer by carefully tapping along the circumference of the seal until it seats into place.  Just make sure its going in evenly and don't hurt the metal.  

You can see an old blog post I made years ago when I did the rear brakes on my old 1-ton Toyota...

http://daysofexploration.blogspot.com/2013/04/third.html

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I found that different brands of seals had a slightly different location where the very thin seal lip meets the mating surface.  My hub had a noticeable groove where the previous inner seal had been sitting for who knows how long.  I bought a different brand of seals to get one that sealed in a different spot.  I had to get into the axle a few weeks ago and all seals were in good shape after 4000 miles with no leaks.  I did not replace the seals this time when I put it back together (hopefully all will continue to be sealed!)  I did lightly sand the mating surfaces during the install 4k miles ago with fine grit paper but I couldn't get the shallow groove out so I found the alternate seal location tip on Yota-tech and went with that approach.  Do you have any kind of surface imperfection where the seals seat?

Seems like you are confident that the fluid is not brake fluid.  I'm under the impression that in order for diff fluid to get to the brakes the outer seal (small one farthest from the diff on the long axle shaft) has to fail first.  This allows diff fluid into the bearings, which in itself is not desired, but not catastrophic either.  Then the fluid in the bearing area can get to the rear seal and past that one to the brakes.  This is presumably what happened in yours? If I'm spouting non-sense here someone please correct me (can diff fluid get to the brakes without the inner seal failing?).  Perhaps carefully check the axle shaft where the smaller outer seal mates and see if there are any imperfections there.  If your diff was over-full this would contribute to oil getting past both seals.  On level ground the level should come up to the fill hole on the diff but no higher.   Do you know where your diff fluid level is now? 

Some folks have said that a symptom of an outer seal failure is that the axle shaft gasket on the far outside of the hub will be 'wet' around the cone washers (after it saturates the gasket).  In theory one can keep an eye on this and catch any problems with the first seal failing before it has a chance to get past the larger inner seal, but I'm not sure if this is just an old wives tale or a valid tip.

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Toyota is one of the few that has an axle seal every one else lubes the floating axle bearings with gear oil from the diff, says in the fine print is should stay inside the hub. In the case of the Toyota axle they pack the hub bearings with grease so the bottom line if the axle tube seal is bad yes the gear oil can get on the breaks but it has to pass two seals to do it.

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When I read this post I had to ask,  Did you install the seals in the correct direction? If not they will leak.

Darrel

 

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Yes they definitely will leak if they are in backwards but will do so from day one.

 

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Thank you all for your responses, all but the axle seal has arrived so I pulled it all back apart to examine things closely, here is what I found... It appears I damaged the seals during installation. You'll see on the axle seal a flat area about 12 and 1 o'clock, also notice the damage on the inner hub seal. Fluid did not come out the front of the axle as it was sealed well with rtv silicone.

You'll notice the slight corrosion, I cleaned that up with 1000 grit.

I havent checked the diff fluid yet, having a heck of a time getting the plug loose. for reference it takes a 24mm  6point socket. It is slightly damaged so somebody has had it off before, have it sprayed with penetrating fluid. Is 80-90 weight correct?

Once I get this back together I do the other side.

Something else I'd like to bring up (maybe this is for another thread) but before I even started this I thought it would be a good idea to see what it would be like If I was broke down on the road and had to jack up the rear. I carry a 3 ton bottle jack, breaker bar, 6" extention and 23mm socket. The question is where is a good jacking point? Any point forward of the leaf spring shackle will lift the entire side of the vehicle with the front wheel about 6" or more off the ground before the rears start to clear, to me thats a lot of weight to put on a 3 ton jack. It wont fit under the U bolt behind the wheel and any farther in on the axle means you have to be under the vehicle during jacking which is a really bad idea. So I'm wondering how others jack up a 21 footer on the road?

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3 hours ago, wonderabout said:

I'm wondering how others jack up a 21 footer on the road?

I've recently started using two new methods of jacking up the rig - one for the road and one for at home.  

Since I put new springs on the rear it is more difficult to get the rear wheels off the ground.  Jacking from the frame, I have to lift until the spring is relaxed and then an additional amount to get the wheel off the ground. This gets very difficult and dangerous on the road as its so high the front wheels are off the ground by the time the rear is up.  I kept a small-ish 3-ton traditional floor jack in the camper that I can use along with some wood blocks, but I've decided recently to go about lifting the rear wheel on the road in a different way.  I bought a Pro-LifT B-S12D  Hydraulic Bottle Jack - 12 Ton Capacity. $30 on Amazon.  It's a huge advantage with a 12-ton vs a 3-ton bottle jack because it takes basically zero effort to move the piston up.  The base is also wider.  It's 13 pounds, which is acceptable.  Nice and easy to lift the rear wheel from under the spring plate like this:

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It's short enough that with the piston all the way down it will just fit under the plate and has more than enough lift to get the wheel off the ground.  It only takes a few inches of lift because the springs stay compressed. All three other wheels stay on the ground so the rig is more stable. I carry some large wood blocks for leveling and use the leveling gear to put something under the frame in case it falls or the bottle jack fails.  I know I'm open to criticism for getting under the rig to jack it but I've used this method a couple of times now and I really feel it's safer and more stable than a jack under the frame (as long as you have some kind of safety stack in place to catch the frame if it falls).  However, I'd like to hear other viewpoints or ideas on this topic.

At home I've found that a similar approach using a bottle jack makes it easy to lift (I don't have a big roll around floor jack).  I bought a 3-ton bottle jack/jack stand combo for lifting from the frame, ~$60 from PepBoys/Ebay online:

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It is about 11" tall so it's not going to work for everyone.  In order to fit it under the frame you either have to have a bit of lift or put some air in the air bags to get the frame high enough.  I have about 11.75" of room under the frame normally so this fits easily. Measure carefully before you run off and buy one... It's really easy to lift an entire side of the camper with this jack.  Very stable.   I have four 3-ton jack stands that I use in parallel with this  bottle jack/stand.  It can lock in place as a real jack stand so you don't have to rely on the piston holding.  It used to be a real chore to get the rig in the air but now it takes me only about 10 minutes to get all 4 wheels off the ground securely on 4 jack stands (I still put 4 cinder blocks under the frame in addition to the jack stands if I'm going to get under it).  This combo jack/stand is too large and heavy to take on the road but great at home.  Total investment in four 3-ton jack stands, the 12-ton Shorty bottle jack for the road and the 3-ton jack/stand combo for home use was ~$150.

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I have a 20 ton bottle jack that I use the same way. I also have 2 12x12 x.5 pieces of plywood just in case of soggy ground.

There are folding wheel chocks available. I use a pair on each front wheel when jacking the rear end. Chock the other end when lifting the front 😜

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