zero Posted January 16, 2013 Share Posted January 16, 2013 Thanks for the information but I don't see anywhere on Walmarts site where they show amps, etc. I only see the dimensions and weight. There are comments from people complaining about how they are leaving out that stuff too. Deep cycle battery: http://tinyurl.com/aevskft Marine battery: http://tinyurl.com/aoc9the I'm sorry if you already explained this... I used to think marine and deep cycle batteries were the same thing. Are they? Should I be looking at marine batteries or deep cycle batteries for my house batteries? Walmart is a reseller for Johnson Controls and not great about giving all the tech specs. Some of the batteries have the amp-hour ratings written on them and you can read in the photo Walmart gives. Like this one. 115 amp hours and 720 CA (cranking amps). More or less, the standard BCI #s tell you what you need to know for marine/RV batteries. If you want more techincal info go to the Johnson Controls website and info database. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zero Posted January 16, 2013 Share Posted January 16, 2013 Thanks for the information but I don't see anywhere on Walmarts site where they show amps, etc. General rule of thumb for marine/RV BCI battery group #s with AH (amp hours) and RC (reserve capacity) . . 24DC has RC of 140 and AH of 84-90 24M has RC of 75-95 and AH of 57-60 27DC has RC of 160 and AH of 95-115 29HM has RC of 210 and AH of 125-135 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stevo Posted January 17, 2013 Author Share Posted January 17, 2013 Thank you! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stevo Posted January 17, 2013 Author Share Posted January 17, 2013 And is there a difference between a regular deep cycle battery and a marine deep cycle battery? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
waiter Posted January 17, 2013 Share Posted January 17, 2013 Marine deep cycle is a compromise between a deep cycle and a starting battery. Good generic choice that fits the majority of us.A true deep cycle, the plates and chemistry are optimized for a long, slow discharge, and can tolerate a deeper discharge.A starting battery is optimized for a fast, high current discharge rate.This is one of the reasons you see folks using two 6 volt golf cart batteries, these are true deep cycles, capable of long slow discharges. good choice for those that are boon docking and solar. John Mc 88 Dolphin 4 Auto Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zero Posted January 17, 2013 Share Posted January 17, 2013 And is there a difference between a regular deep cycle battery and a marine deep cycle battery? It's a relative term for the most part. Companies that use long term battery banks with 20 year life-spans do not regard the Trojan T-105 golf-cart/scubber batteries as "true deep cycle." Trojan makes an L-series battery that is regarded more of a true deep cycle then the golf-cart series. L-16 is one. The T-105 weights 67 lbs. and the L-16 weighs 116 lbs. The L-116 is rated to be discharged to 50% 1600 times before it's worn out. A Trojan IND-9 is rated for 2800 discharges to 50%. A Trojan T-105 is rated for 1200 discharges to 50%. A type 27 or 29 from Walmart is rated for only 600 discharges to 50%. A deep cycle battery is designed to withstand discharges down to 50% and not be damaged. That is the key factor. The rest - when it comes to specs is about how many 50% discharges a specific battery can withstand before it is worn out. The longer a battery is built to last, the more it costs. When I installed the battery bank at my farm - I was not allowed to use Trojan T-105 golf cart batteries because the projected life and the warranty was too short. A 5 year minimum was required. Subsequently I used Rolls-Surette batteries from Canada. Many are over $1000 each. So, compared to a car cranking battery, a type 27 or 29 from Walmart is much more like a true deep cycle. And compared to the Walmart battery, a Trojan T-105 is much more HD. And compared to a Trojan T-105, a Trojan L-16 is more more HD, etc. etc. If you read the specs you can anticipate what any deep cycle battery really costs over time. When Trojan T-105s were selling for $55 each they were bargains. Now at $150 I'm not so sure. A $100 Walmart battery gives 600 cycles of 115 amp hours each. Around 17 cents per cycle. A Trojan T-105 gives twice the cycles at less then twice the price. Around 12 cents per cycle for the same amp-hours. So overall the Trojan T-105 is cheaper but - you need two since it's 6 volts and it's not convenient for swapping into other things Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Derek up North Posted January 17, 2013 Share Posted January 17, 2013 I'm still intrigued by the following statement made earlier: "A marine battery means its water resistant ..." I've yet to come across a battery that isn't 'water resistant'. BTW, I guess my loose definition of 'Water Resistant' would be NOT worrying about spraying it down with a hose while cleaning under the hood. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zero Posted January 17, 2013 Share Posted January 17, 2013 I'm still intrigued by the following statement made earlier: "A marine battery means its water resistant ..." I've yet to come across a battery that isn't 'water resistant'. BTW, I guess my loose definition of 'Water Resistant' would be NOT worrying about spraying it down with a hose while cleaning under the hood. It was a nonsense statement (in my humble opinion). There is no set of strict rules that make a battery "marine." But since so many are used to run electric motors AND start gas engines - they are often light-duty deep-cycle batteries and multi-purposed. Technically, I have some Deka golf cart batteries here that have stainless steel terminals and nuts. I guess that makes them more "water resistant" than a "marine" battery with lead terminals. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
waiter Posted January 17, 2013 Share Posted January 17, 2013 If your buying the battery at Walmart, these generic terms are probably Ok. Marine deep cycle and Start batteryIf your looking at a very specific application , i.e. Solar off the grid, You really need a lot more research and information.We used a special battery in our UPS (Uninteruptable Power Supply). The UPS was the size of a small house, it needed to supply power about 2 megawatts to the entire facility for about 15 seconds while the Diesel generators came on line. I've also see water towers used as UPS, they would dump water to run a turbine for 10 -15 seconds while the generators came on line. John Mc 88 Dolphin 4 Auto Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zero Posted January 17, 2013 Share Posted January 17, 2013 If your buying the battery at Walmart, these generic terms are probably Ok. Marine deep cycle and Start battery If your looking at a very specific application , i.e. Solar off the grid, You really need a lot more research and information. We used a special battery in our UPS (Uninteruptable Power Supply). The UPS was the size of a small house, it needed to supply power about 2 megawatts to the entire facility for about 15 seconds while the Diesel generators came on line. I've also see water towers used as UPS, they would dump water to run a turbine for 10 -15 seconds while the generators came on line. John Mc 88 Dolphin 4 Auto The most convoluted scheme I've heard of is in Holland. They have a lot of wind energy. For years during the windy season they had too much excess power and sold it to German dirt cheap. Then when the non-wind season came, Germany sold Holland power at a high price. So - Holland designed a system that takes the extra power, runs giant air compressors, and fills giant air tanks. When the slow season came, they slowly let air back out of the tanks to run turbines to make power. Not sure how well it has all worked out. Back to Walmart et. al. A battery that can be discharged to 50%, 600 times for $100 is a good deal as I see it. I don't care what they call it. I'm at the age where a 20 year battery will almost surely outlive me and a 10 year battery is a gamble. My 80 year-old buddy doesn't even like buying new clothes. He says if he dies before they wear out - he's gotten ripped off. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Derek up North Posted January 17, 2013 Share Posted January 17, 2013 I'm at the age where a 20 year battery will almost surely outlive me and a 10 year battery is a gamble. My 80 year-old buddy doesn't even like buying new clothes. He says if he dies before they wear out - he's gotten ripped off. I just went through the same this year when I put a new roof on the house. I decided that 25-year shingles would be just fine and that I wouldn't get much benefit from a steel roof good for 50 years. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
waiter Posted January 17, 2013 Share Posted January 17, 2013 I don't think Walmart sells a battery that you can take down to 50%. :-)JOhn Mc Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zero Posted January 17, 2013 Share Posted January 17, 2013 I don't think Walmart sells a battery that you can take down to 50%. :-) JOhn Mc The Walmart type 27 and 29 batteries are made by Johnson Controls and they rate them for 600 cycles @ 50% DOD (depth of discharge). If you don't believe it I guess you need to argue with them. I don't have a test lab and can't say I've conducted any scientific tests with strict controls. By definition - "deep cycle" means being a battery suitable for a 50% discharge. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zero Posted January 17, 2013 Share Posted January 17, 2013 I just went through the same this year when I put a new roof on the house. I decided that 25-year shingles would be just fine and that I wouldn't get much benefit from a steel roof good for 50 years. I just put steel roofs on two of my homes. Not because of longevity. More about shedding snow much better then asphalt shingles. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Derek up North Posted January 17, 2013 Share Posted January 17, 2013 I thought about that too but because of the house design the advantage of not having to shovel the roof was outweighed by where the snow would dump to (on my deck, which would then need shoveling!). With a house designed for it, though, it would be a great advantage. A friend just built a garage and stupidly decided to change the orientation of the roof 90 degrees relative to the doors from the original plans. Result? When the snow slid off the other day he was left with a nice 5' high bank of compacted snow right outside his doors. I sure wouldn't want to have been standing there when it came down (10:12 pitch)! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zero Posted January 17, 2013 Share Posted January 17, 2013 I thought about that too but because of the house design the advantage of not having to shovel the roof was outweighed by where the snow would dump to (on my deck, which would then need shoveling!). With a house designed for it, though, it would be a great advantage. A friend just built a garage and stupidly decided to change the orientation of the roof 90 degrees relative to the doors from the original plans. Result? When the snow slid off the other day he was left with a nice 5' high bank of compacted snow right outside his doors. I sure wouldn't want to have been standing there when it came down (10:12 pitch)! We get snow piles from drop off higher then the bottom of eaves. A few years ago it was 8 feet deep. Still worth it for me. With the asphalt roof we got ice-dams something awful after certain types of weather events. That is caused by uneven temps on the roof (roof warm above the eaves). Once the dams are there, the water backs up with asphalt an leaks into the house. I've seen people install electrid grid heaters, install metal ice-slides, or - just go up there with a hammer or hachet and break the dams. My wife's parents in northern Michigan has a brand new house and it has the same problems. They are going to switch to steel. Some of my roofs are 5/12 and some are 3/12 with lower additions. Installing steel worked wonders. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zero Posted January 17, 2013 Share Posted January 17, 2013 I don't think Walmart sells a battery that you can take down to 50%. :-) JOhn Mc Here is the info on the Walmart batteries direct from Johnson Controls. They say they make the same batteries for Walmart and Costco for type 27 and 29. They test them to 100% discharge and they've tested to last 85 to 100 cycles at that 100%. Under the Johnson brand they are called the 27M and 29HM batteries. Walmart and Costco make up their own names for the same batteries. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Derek up North Posted January 17, 2013 Share Posted January 17, 2013 Never any problems with ice dams at my place. Roof slope is maybe 5:12 but lots of attic ventilation. My only concern is the weight of the snow up there. The snow on West side gets drifts 4' deep or more so sometimes inside doors don't close too well! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zero Posted January 17, 2013 Share Posted January 17, 2013 Never any problems with ice dams at my place. Roof slope is maybe 5:12 but lots of attic ventilation. My only concern is the weight of the snow up there. The snow on West side gets drifts 4' deep or more so sometimes inside doors don't close too well! We've gotten storms that dropped three feet and drifts over 6 feet deep are common. A bit north of me - around Mexico, New York - they've gotten storms that dropped 12 feet of snow. All lake-effect from Lake Ontario. That part of NY gets the most contiguous US snow this side of the Rockies. I have two snow plow trucks with chains on all four wheels . There have been several times the snow was too deep to plow. Then I use my farm tractor with a 6 foot PTO powered snow blower on the back. We have big snow weight problems on our lower roofs and often have doors inside that stop closing. When that happens my wife and I get on the roof and start shovelling. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zero Posted January 17, 2013 Share Posted January 17, 2013 Never any problems with ice dams at my place. Roof slope is maybe 5:12 but lots of attic ventilation. We also have lots of attic ventilation. We've had flying squirrels living there for the 30 years we've been here. The main problem is where the vertical walls of the house meet the roof. Heat from the walls heats that narrow area of roof, melts snow, and causes ice dams. Note the original part of our house was built in 1820. I've updated some of it but it is far from perfect. My in-laws in Michigan have a new house with that is super-insulated with the thick foam panels sandwiched between OSB sheet. They too have ice dam problems. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Derek up North Posted January 17, 2013 Share Posted January 17, 2013 I make do with an old John Deere 1032 'blower. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zero Posted January 17, 2013 Share Posted January 17, 2013 I make do with an old John Deere 1032 'blower. This is the 6 foot blower I have to use when snow gets real deep. Hurts the neck after awhile since the tractor has to go backwards to use. John Deere PTO blower on a Britsh IH tractor. My Geo Tracker when it got completely buried in snow when parked too close to my solar-panel roof. Snow at our house when the snow on the ground is higher then the roof eaves. Snow a bit north of us in Oswego County, NY. Lake Ontario lake-effect snow. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stevo Posted January 17, 2013 Author Share Posted January 17, 2013 Thanks again guys! It turns out the starter battery in this motorhome has a bad cell which is no big surprise since it was hardly started in 3 years. I'm heading to Walmart now to buy a starter battery and was wondering if there are any brands of batteries there that I should steer clear of? Or are ALL the batteries at Walmart now made by Johnson Controls? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
waiter Posted January 17, 2013 Share Posted January 17, 2013 Stevo, I don't know about the particular brand, but Walmart is a good overall choice. If you have any problems (which you shouldn't) take it back.Jhn Mc Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
waiter Posted January 17, 2013 Share Posted January 17, 2013 JD the photo with the van driving between the snow banks reminds me when I lived in Japan. LOT OF SNOW. JOhn Mc Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zero Posted January 17, 2013 Share Posted January 17, 2013 JD the photo with the van driving between the snow banks reminds me when I lived in Japan. LOT OF SNOW. JOhn Mc A friend of mine was stationed on a Japanese island. He said the snow build-up got so deep sometimes a truck would break through and disappear until spring. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zero Posted January 17, 2013 Share Posted January 17, 2013 Thanks again guys! It turns out the starter battery in this motorhome has a bad cell which is no big surprise since it was hardly started in 3 years. I'm heading to Walmart now to buy a starter battery and was wondering if there are any brands of batteries there that I should steer clear of? Or are ALL the batteries at Walmart now made by Johnson Controls? There are only around 3 companies making lead-acid batteries at the consumer level. Johnson Controls, Exide and Deka. Exide is the only one that has had some pretty bad quality control issues in the past few years. Exide had been making Sears Diehards until Sears sued them for poor quality and switched to Johnson Controls. I prefer Walmart because the stores are all over the country and prices are good. If you get interested in a heavier deep-cycle battery like a Trojan T-105, you can order from any NAPA store as a Deka battery. # 8142 or a # 8144. I almost never buy Trojans because there aren't any local dealers anymore. The only golf course we have (that was a good source for batteries) switched to gas-power. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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