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Internal GFCI tripping


Brian

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So, my first post … :P

I've had our 1992 Winnie Warrior on shore power throughout the winter, with a trickle heater running to keep above freezing (usually doesn't get much below 30 to 28 here in Puget Sound area).

A few days ago I noticed the microwave was not on, which is my way of checking I have power to the internal 110V sockets. Ceiling lights work okay, since they're on a different circuit.

 The GCFI inside the house wouldn't reset until I unplugged the shore cable. When I reconnected the cable, the RV power immediately shut down again and popped the GCFI in the house, also the one under the sink rim in the RV galley.

I suspected the heater, so unplugged it, reset the GCFI's and tried plugging in a hand-held vacuum—same thing!:angry: Checked the heater inside the house to be sure, it's fine …

Next I got a fresh power cord, hooked it up to the pigtail and plugged it in—same thing! :ranting2:

Unplugged the power cord from the house, reset the GCFI's and plugged the new cord into a different (GCFI) circuit in the house (it runs off a different breaker board …)—out goes the power again!!:wacko::wacko:

Some research suggested either a bad ground connection due to corrosion, or a short circuit (my friend said "Mice?")

I'd like to attempt to trace the problem myself before taking it to the RV shop ($$$$). I have the wiring diagrams, but can't even figure out where the main ground connection is … :help:

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It does not require a ground to trip. How many breakers are in the RV? try turning them off one at a time and see what happens. If there is a 30 amp that will kill all power to the RV there may be a 20 and a 15 amp breaker turn them off one at a time. If the plug on your camper power cord has been replaced that is suspect. It was once molded to the cord (no screws etc.) if that is not the case it maybe wired wrong (black/white reversed) the stuff will still work but it can cause GFI issues. If the house is older some early GFI's were very sensitive to faults including extension cords.

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Let me start with I am not an electrician simply a Toy owner trying to get by.  About the third thing I would suspect is the GFI itself. 2nd would be the refrigerator, I have this vague recollection (may or may not be right) of heater in fridge causing problems, easy and cheap enough to check just unplug it. You could also plug fridge into known good extension cord that is plugged into GFI circuit.

I would also try different extension cord plugged into a non GFI receptical.

If unplugging and  fridge does not help, to be safe I would just replace the GFI, likely vintage electrical anyway.  $15 to $20 to save a service call.  I detest throwing parts at a problem, but replacing vintage electrical is not wasted money.

If all this fails I would ask forum.   

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It only takes approximately 5 mA (0.005 A) of current leakage from the hot wire to the ground to cause a GFCI to trip. A small amount of leakage current may be difficult to avoid in some normal circuits. Some stationary motors, such as a bathroom vent fan or fluorescent lighting fixtures, may produce enough leakage to cause nuisance tripping. Another problem may be a long circuit with a lot of splices. If possible, keep GFCI circuits less than 100 feet long. To avoid nuisance tripping, a GFCI should not supply:

Circuits longer than 100 feet.

Fluorescent or other types of electric-discharge lighting fixtures.

Permanently installed electric motors.

You can try to find the cause of the +5 mA current leakage by unplugging and or turning everything off. If everything is off and you still trip the GFIC the problem may be in the wiring supplying the panel. Also you can get GFCI pigtails for a reasonable price to help troubleshoot the problem. You can then plug into a non GFCI circuit and use the pigtail to see if the problem still exists.

 

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I have the same problem which I have not yet addressed. Based on my experience with in ground pool lights my plan is to replace the 240V power cord from RV to land connection. As previously noted I'd make sure cable & plug are molded as one piece.

My experience with 120V pool lights was that insulation degrades over time and you get some voltage seepage to ground. Trips GFCI feeding lights. Sporadic at first then gets worse over time as cable insulation continues to degrade. Replacement of cable feeding lights solved problem.

Again, my plan that I have not started and the reasoning for my plan.   

Edited by vrocrider
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Hi Linda. Agree very important to get right cable or you could have melt down/fire.

Electrical cable has both a voltage V & current rating in amps A. That along with the protective feeder breaker is critical to have safe operation.  

My 1991 Toy Winnebego Warrior has from the factory a 3 prong cable rated maximum voltage 125/250VAC & maximum current rating most likely 50A but could be 30A. Note the 50A based on info from RV cable suppliers. Cable has to have electrical specs equal or above power being supplied. Sorry for confusion.    

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Go to Wal-Mart and buy a plug checker. They make a version that will check a gcfi circuit. $10 or so.

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3 hours ago, vrocrider said:

Hi Linda. Agree very important to get right cable or you could have melt down/fire.

Electrical cable has both a voltage V & current rating in amps A. That along with the protective feeder breaker is critical to have safe operation.  

My 1991 Toy Winnebego Warrior has from the factory a 3 prong cable rated maximum voltage 125/250VAC & maximum current rating most likely 50A but could be 30A. Note the 50A based on info from RV cable suppliers. Cable has to have electrical specs equal or above power being supplied. Sorry for confusion.    

Your Toy came from the factory with a 10 gauge wire rated for 30 Amps.   What has happened in the intervening 26 years is anyone's guess.

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5 hours ago, vrocrider said:

Hi Linda. Agree very important to get right cable or you could have melt down/fire.

Electrical cable has both a voltage V & current rating in amps A. That along with the protective feeder breaker is critical to have safe operation.  

My 1991 Toy Winnebego Warrior has from the factory a 3 prong cable rated maximum voltage 125/250VAC & maximum current rating most likely 50A but could be 30A. Note the 50A based on info from RV cable suppliers. Cable has to have electrical specs equal or above power being supplied. Sorry for confusion.    

No it is a 30 amp 120 volt plug NEMA TT30-P  it will not fit any 240 outlet The cord is rated 30 120 volt is is a #10 wire rate 30 amps. Even most 50 amp RV plugs are basically two 25 amp 120 volt circuits having 4 pins nothing in an RV is 240 volt except for very big motor homes.

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11 hours ago, mike thomason said:

It only takes approximately 5 mA (0.005 A) of current leakage from the hot wire to the ground to cause a GFCI to trip. A small amount of leakage current may be difficult to avoid in some normal circuits. Some stationary motors, such as a bathroom vent fan or fluorescent lighting fixtures, may produce enough leakage to cause nuisance tripping. Another problem may be a long circuit with a lot of splices. If possible, keep GFCI circuits less than 100 feet long. To avoid nuisance tripping, a GFCI should not supply:

Circuits longer than 100 feet.

Fluorescent or other types of electric-discharge lighting fixtures.

Permanently installed electric motors.

You can try to find the cause of the +5 mA current leakage by unplugging and or turning everything off. If everything is off and you still trip the GFIC the problem may be in the wiring supplying the panel. Also you can get GFCI pigtails for a reasonable price to help troubleshoot the problem. You can then plug into a non GFCI circuit and use the pigtail to see if the problem still exists.

 

A GFI does not need a ground to work it is an imbalance that causes tripping. Older GFI did not like resistive loads such as heaters the OP is having house GFI issues the MH panel is a sub panel it has a floating neutral if it is wired correctly, it is not connect to ground like a house. More than once I have seen replacement RV plugs with the hot and neutral reversed every thing will still work because it is a sub panel but it will drive down stream GFI's nuts.

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On 2/26/2017 at 2:18 PM, Brian said:

So, my first post … :P

I've had our 1992 Winnie Warrior on shore power throughout the winter, with a trickle heater running to keep above freezing (usually doesn't get much below 30 to 28 here in Puget Sound area).

A few days ago I noticed the microwave was not on, which is my way of checking I have power to the internal 110V sockets. Ceiling lights work okay, since they're on a different circuit.

 The GCFI inside the house wouldn't reset until I unplugged the shore cable. When I reconnected the cable, the RV power immediately shut down again and popped the GCFI in the house, also the one under the sink rim in the RV galley.

I suspected the heater, so unplugged it, reset the GCFI's and tried plugging in a hand-held vacuum—same thing!:angry: Checked the heater inside the house to be sure, it's fine …

Next I got a fresh power cord, hooked it up to the pigtail and plugged it in—same thing! :ranting2:

Unplugged the power cord from the house, reset the GCFI's and plugged the new cord into a different (GCFI) circuit in the house (it runs off a different breaker board …)—out goes the power again!!:wacko::wacko:

Some research suggested either a bad ground connection due to corrosion, or a short circuit (my friend said "Mice?")

I'd like to attempt to trace the problem myself before taking it to the RV shop ($$$$). I have the wiring diagrams, but can't even figure out where the main ground connection is … :help:

Your RV has several grounds they all are attached to the frame work. The incoming power cord mates with the box ground inside of the panel the panel ground goes to the frame ground ever thing 12 volt is tied to the frame ground too. Here is the deal they do not want a hot 120 volt connection to the frame in any way shape or form or there is a chance that the frame could become hot making you the path to ground when you grab the door handle. This is another reason RV panels have a floating neutral that is not attach to the ground Camp grounds are not know to hire an electrician unless they have to so if bubba wires the outlet backwards there would be a chance that the frame of the RV  could become hot. Every step have been taken to avoid this but there is all ways a what if.

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Well, it just gets worse! I bought a multimeter, learned how to use it, checked all the fuses in the control center—all good.

I replaced the GFCI, but have not been able to get it to reset, no matter how hard I push on the button. 

SO, I decided to unhook the load wires from the GFCI, thinking that at least that socket should work, but it didn't. Before racing out to get another replacement, I thought to check the line for power. Shore cable is good, although the GFCI on the outside of my house had tripped (also powers the dog fence …). I reset that one, checked the other end of the shore line for power, all good. 

When I flip the 15 and 20A breakers (one of each) to one, I get the familiar hum from the control center, but no power at the bare wires (they were working before, because the green light on the GFCI was lit up).

Therefore, I ask myself (and you guys) is it possible one of those breakers , most likely the 15A, has died on me? I did read on another post that they can become worn over the years …

How would I check that, or is it time to take it to the shop? $$$$:wacko::wacko::ranting2::ranting2:

Oh, and is there a way to check the GFCI if it's not connected to anything?

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OK, last question first. With the exception of small amounts of leakage, the current returning to the power supply in your typical 2-wire circuit will be equal to the current leaving the power supply. If the difference between the current leaving and returning through the current transformer of the GFCI exceeds 5mA, the solid-state circuitry opens the switching contacts and de-energizes the circuit.

If the GFCI is tripping, you're leaking current somewhere. If the test button on your GFCI trips the breaker, and you can reset it, your breaker is probably OK. As far as disconnecting the load and still not getting any power at the GFCI receptacle, I'm not sure. I have never tried that before, but it does not surprise me if it does not work.

Breakers usually work for long periods of time with no issues. I think it would be highly unlikely that both breakers failed at the same time.


 

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A GFI will not reset if it has no power. Many  toy home converters were directly connected to the incoming power cord and not on a breaker so all that means is there is incoming power. All of the outlets are on a single GFI it is a 15 amp, the 20 is for the AC even if you don't have one. Make sure you are "A" connected to the line side of the GFI and "B" that the black and white are not swapped copper colored terminal takes the black wire.  If you have no power at the GFI yes it can be the breaker but it would be more likely to be some thing like mice and a chewed on wire. The power from the breaker goes directly to the GFI then to the other outlets. Check the breaker connection for looseness. The breaker panel is a 240 volt 60 amp panel in order for both breakers to work there has to be a jumper between the two large lugs on the breaker box if it is missing or a loose connection one or the other breakers will have no power. If there is a poor connection it will trip the GFI either in the camper or the house. I would check the breaker with your DVM from the black breaker lead to the box ground or white lead if there is nothing there it's either the breaker or the jumper between the two large lugs, The breaker is common but take it with you to match it up there are several types they are less than $10. 

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Here is what I would all so do because this maybe what is causing your tripping. Put your DVM on ohms touch the leads together it should read zero. bring the RV plug inside the camper turn off the breakers holding the plug facing you with the round pin up it should read zero (or very close to it) between the flat pin on the right and the big black wire in the panel box. The left pin should do the same touching the big white wire in the box. The round pin will connect to the green wire. If the black and white are reversed it will trip the breaker both at the house and in the camper. The power will still work if they are reversed but it will trip the GFI and can cause a dangerous situation. I do not trust any thing in a 30+ year old camper to be correct it is too easy for people to tinker.

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Interesting … before I try that, here’s some more info.

 

#1 Duh factor—re “no power at bare wires”. It would have helped if I had verified which was the actual line wire first! Having figured that out by visual inspection, I retested and have power (blush!) at wires which will be connected to line side of GFCI (if I ever get this all put back together!!) :P

 

#2 What was confusing was that the “Range Receptacle” (on the side wall above the stovetop) is actually wired separately from the main receptacle circuit, and is connected directly to the “load’ side of the GFCI. This is different from the Winnebago wiring diagram for 1991/2 Warrior …

 

#3 The microwave is on a different circuit altogether, going directly to the back of the Control Center.

I had to pull out draws and paneling to trace this stuff—sheesh! :wacko:

 

#4 I cannot access the Refrigerator receptacle without pulling the ‘fridge, which I am understandably reluctant to do …

 

#5 I made up a long test wire (18 gauge) extension—I attached one end to the black wire of the “load” side where it would hook into the GFCI, and probed the Bathroom, Dinette (Overhead), and Exterior receptacles, then switched to white wire.

In both cases, I got continuity on all 4 holes of each receptacle, but dimmer light on one side than the other … :blink:

 

Then I came in to write this … :(

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Your fridge outlet is inside of the exterior fridge door. Explain "dimmer light" . The range receptacle should be on the load side. With some thing plugged in it will slew the readings. The microwave is probably connected to the 20 amp breaker and it really should be on a GFI. or have one of it's own. I don't understand the "extension wires" what are you trying to do there?

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First let me say how much I appreciate you hangin’ in there with me! How’s the weather in Maine? Never-ending rain here in Puget Sound country! :ph34r:

 

I have completely unhooked the GFCI. As I originally found it, it had Line side coming in through LH side of the box, connected to Line side of GFCI, and Load wire coming in through RH side of  box, connected to Load side of GFCI, and another 3-wire line through a second hole on the RH side, also connected to Load side of GCFI. I traced this second line back to the Range receptacle.

The main Load circuit was attached to the same (Load) terminals.

So, to be extra clear, the Range receptacle is connected to the load side, but independently wired from the other receptacles.

 

In this state, the GFCI would blow every time I tried to run any kind of appliance. I assumed the microwave was on a GFCI, but I don’t see one, will inspect a little closer, but am now thinking that the microwave was going off because the GFCI at the House end (as in dwelling place, not Winnebago “house”) of the shore line was also popping. Ya da ya da, but I’m trying to avoid confusion!! :rolleyes:

 

I plugged a regular 110 extension cord into the Range receptacle, attached a continuity test lamp to the black wire of the secondary circuit, probed one hole of the extension cord—it lit up, but not when I attached the tester to the white, proving continuity on one side. I then hooked up to white wire, getting opposite result. So far so good …

 

As regards the “extension wires”—Logic (faulty?) said I should be able to test the main load circuit the same way, hence my rigging up a longer “extension wire” to the tester cord to be able to test the exterior sockets.

 

The next receptacle down the line is the Bathroom. I hooked tester to Black wire at beginning of Load line (which would normally be connected to GFCI), and probed the 4 slots on Bathroom socket (also opened it up and probed wires at back of socket, with same results). The tester lit up on all 4 slots. :huh:

When probing the short (hot) slots the tester lights up—it also lights up on the long (neutral) slots, but not as brightly (I would estimate about 50% dimmer.

 

I get the same results on all the receptacles, and the same when I hook to white wire, but in reverse of course …

 

Are you saying this would not happen if I unplug the refrigerator?

 

Once again, I really appreciate your help (image in my head of a lame dog and a stile!!) :P:D

Oh, and in my ignorance I assumed from looking at the schematic that the wire coming in from the RH side was the Line, and hooked up the new GFCI accordingly—is it likely that I fried the GFCI?:angry: I bought another one just in case …

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Use one of these, unplug everything and start with the house. Add one item to the power chain and test again, repeat until the power chain fails.

http://www.ebay.com/itm/AC-GFCI-Circuit-Tester-Electric-Outlet-Plug-Receptacle-Home-Office-/222419855803?hash=item33c941a9bb:g:b3IAAOSwTuJYr3~W

 DO NOT chain GCFI outlets, ie don't plug one into another

Edited by WME
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Well shoot! Found the Refrigerator receptacle where you said, but guess what?—there's not enough clearance between the refrigerator coils and the back of the plug to be able to pull it all the way out :angry: what were they thinking ? (or not!) Looks to me as if they installed the receptacle without allowing for that—I suppose one could always move the receptacle, except that you'd have to pull the fridge to gain access … grrr!

So I can't follow WME's suggestion to unplug everything …

Now what?

Edited by Brian
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Hmmmm?  Is the outlet screwed to the wall, could it be unscrewed so you can move it a bit?   Can you access the electrical panel on the fridge and unhook the wires?

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Don't think there's room for a screwdriver, not even a stubby! Will investigate the electrical panel … thanks for the suggestion.

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Look carefully, most refers are held in by 4 -6 screws. Some on the front face and a couple in the back on the bottom. Loosen them just enough to make room to unplug

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So, just to check, I hooked up the GFCI, just the line side. Test and reset worked fine.

Then I hooked up the Range circuit (just 1 receptacle) to the load side—it worked fine, circuit checks out and anything I plug into it works.

Then I unhooked the Range circuit and connected the main circuit—plugged in test lamp and GFCI inside house tripped.

I ran a fresh power cord to a non-GFCI-protected outlet and hooked up to the Toy—Toy GFCI tripped.

Disconnected main circuit and reconnected Range circuit, everything works fine …

 

At least I’ve determined that the Toy GFCI is okay …

 

Tried to disconnect load side of Bathroom outlet to see if there’s a short between line side and the GFCI (i.e., by isolating "downstream" section of circuit)—it’s back wired and I can’t get the wires out, they’re so tight. Thinking about just cutting it out and installing new receptacle (I’ll have to pigtail as not much available wire inside box … )

Before I do that, any other suggestions?

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With the fridge if every thing else is not connected and you have the same problem it's cut and dry. Once again you lost me with the test how are you testing it? meter? light? The black wire is is the "hot" wire the white is the return wire it does absolutely noting until some thing is plugged in you should have power between the black and white but nothing with out the other. The fridge plug should be accessible that is considered a disconnect and you should be able to unplug it. 

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Ah hah!

After a few days off, I got back to the wiring problem. As suggested, I isolated the refrigerator—the power cord to the receptacle is about 2ft or so long, so I was able to cut it and install a plug and socket for ease of disconnecting (you may remember, the problem was that there is insufficient clearance between the receptacle and the 'fridge coils to get the original plug out!)

I was still getting continuity between black and white wires on all receptacles except GCFI, so I cut out the next one in line, the bathroom receptacle, and re-tested remaining sockets. Now black to black and white to white show correct continuity, but none on black to white—so far so good.

 

I disconnected the bathroom receptacle completely, ran a new length of 14-2 between the GFCI and the load wires that had been on the bathroom receptacle. Continuity still good—plugged a vacuum cleaner into GFCI, turned it on, et voilá! GFCI stays on. Yay!

 

I then hooked up the fridge with my new connectors, and ran the vacuum again—still good!

 

Tomorrow I will fire up the fridge to see if it actually works (can I just run that off my power from my house? It’s a Dometic 2-way 110 volt/propane model, no 12volt option).

 

The microwave is not working—I was perplexed, because it seemed to be on a separate circuit running to the back of the converter. Behind the micro is a receptacle of a kind I’ve not seen before—instead of the wires attaching by screws, the receptacle is in two pieces. When you screw them together, copper blades cut through the isolation to make the connection. I’ve seen this on cheap lamp cords for in-line switches, but not on a 14-2 cable. My instinct is that this is hooked into the old 14-2 that’s been giving me trouble, so I guess I’ll replace it. My wife says don’t even bother, we  use the microwave so seldom let’s just pull it and have extra storage!

 

The second socket on this receptacle is home to the plug of a cord which runs through a switch next to the GFCI and then disappears into the back of the water heater compartment—the only times I’ve ever tried flipping it it would trip the GFCI … I always light the water heater pilot from the outside, so I guess I just won’t bother to plug that one back in!

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Go out and cast an eyeball on your water heater. There are some that the P/O has installed a 110v Hott Rod electric booster heater for use when you have shore power. It will heat the water with out using propane.

Edited by WME
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Tomorrow I will fire up the fridge to see if it actually works (can I just run that off my power from my house? It’s a Dometic 2-way 110 volt/propane model, no 12volt option).

Refrigerator draws little power, 5-6 amps if you are using #12 extension cord you should be good to go.  If you plug into house GFI and it trips you have found problem or is it the extension cord : )   

The 2 piece electrical outlets are standard RV.

Good move on cutting off the plug, where there is a will there is a way.         Jim

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On my favorite guitar website they have a saying—"Show us pictures or it doesn't exist!"

WME, you're spot on, it's a P/O installed conversion, he was a licensed electrician—I guess he didn't feel like crawling around to attach the thermostat to the tank, because there it is, attached to the water pressure relief valve. Apparently it worked for him …

The question I have is, the thermostat doesn't look like either the Hot Dogg or the Camco, does anybody know what brand it might be? How do I test it with a DVM (explicit beginner directions, please :P)

jjrbus, I plugged the fridge into the line for the house and the GFCI stayed on, will check for cooling in a few hours …

Thank you both for your suggestions :D

Water heater .jpg

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Well, guess what? It's all working again, except the electric water heater which is still tripping the GFCI, as it has done since the time we bought the Toy …

After all that work, which was a welcome and necessary crash course in RV electrical systems and learning how to use a DVM, I finally tracked down an open ground in the bathroom receptacle. Everything was working and getting positive results on all the receptacles except that one, and that's after replacing it. I opened up the others, and noticed that the bathroom one was the only one that didn't have a ground connection—instead, the incoming and outgoing grounds were connected by a pigtail to the back of the metal box. I disconnected that one and attached it to the ground terminal on the receptacle, and now everything tests good.

I hunted around in the innards behind the furnace and hot water tank, and it seems like both the microwave and the electric heater are plugged into the funny receptacle on the main circuit, whereas one might have expected them to be on a 20A circuit. I unplugged the water heater and will probably not bother to fix it … would be interesting to figure out what its problem is, but will wait for warmer weather!!

One nice thing is that I can now just plug the fridge into a line from the house overnight to get it cold before a trip.

Probably my old GFCI is still good, but the new one is self-testing, so that can't be bad.

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