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OK, should this thing be here? If not, what should? (minicruiser)


Boondockit

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Hey, it's my 2nd post further showing my noob-ity:

I wasn't getting ANY 12V power in coach when plugging in to shore power. When I looked fir problem I found a "battery charger" feeding 12V into my distribution box...

Poked it and found NO juice coming from this battery charger into distribution box.

See pics: A=shore power cord. B=outlet that the battery charger is plugged into (poke reveals that this outlet is throwing 110 into battery charger)...

C= Wires that should be feeding 12V out of battery charger that lead to;

D: White wire that feed directly from battery charger to distribution box

E = where the white wire connects to 12V distribution box for coach

I do notice that the battery charger pictured also should be charging the house battery, but it's not sending juice at all to either 12v box or battery, so I need to replace it and my hunch is that this is a makeshift power supply that is not best for the system, thoughts? Help?

Best, Michael from Iowa

 

 

 

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Yeah that isn't a good charger. It's actually worse then stock which was 5 amps usually at least. I bought a 50 amp power max to replace mine.  It has 3 levels of charge high for dead battery, med once batt gets to a certain point and trickle for maintaining battery. They come in many amperages I got a 50 because I have 2 6v in series giving me 480 amp hours of storage so it will fully charge in about 8 hours. Normal setups are with lower amp hour single 12v batteries. Anywhere from 50 to 150 amp hours. 

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5 hours ago, Boondockit said:

Ok, thanks, so a battery charger is common and correct to both act as a power supply / inverter from the shore power cord to the 12v coach distribution panel AND as the coach battery charger?

No.   RVs usually come with a 120 volt AC distribution box, a 12 volt DC distribution box, a 120 volt AC to 12 volt DC converter, and an optional battery charger.  Four different items.   Sometimes they are all put in one box and called a "power center."

That battery maintainer you have in the photo is fine for maintaining one RV battery.  That is, keeping the battery charged when the camper is parked and not being used.   It cannot be used as a converter.

You have not mentioned your converter and that is what is missing here.  Either your's was removed, or you haven't found it yet.  Note that not all converters come with battery chargers. It is an option.

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8 hours ago, jdemaris said:

No.   RVs usually come with a 120 volt AC distribution box, a 12 volt DC distribution box, a 120 volt AC to 12 volt DC converter, and an optional battery charger.  Four different items.   Sometimes they are all put in one box and called a "power center."

That battery maintainer you have in the photo is fine for maintaining one RV battery.  That is, keeping the battery charged when the camper is parked and not being used.   It cannot be used as a converter.

You have not mentioned your converter and that is what is missing here.  Either your's was removed, or you haven't found it yet.  Note that not all converters come with battery chargers. It is an option.

Ok, thanks, does it appear to your eye that the thick white cut cable in pic was what was originally leading to the now missing converter (or missing power center) ? The white cable coming from the battery charger into the 12v distribution box (e on diagram) is the only feed I see going into the 12v distribution box...

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3 hours ago, Boondockit said:

Ok, thanks, does it appear to your eye that the thick white cut cable in pic was what was originally leading to the now missing converter (or missing power center) ? The white cable coming from the battery charger into the 12v distribution box (e on diagram) is the only feed I see going into the 12v distribution box...

It looks to me like that your 110v circuit breaker box and 12v fuse/distribution box are there, only thing missing is the converter/charger. I'm guessing any outlets you have work fine just no lights or water pump which are 12v. The converter would hook to that white wire which feeds the 12v. Mine is set up differently the converter goes to the battery which then goes to the 12v distribution. It seems odd that someone would set it up with the 12v box in front of the battery. Maybe someone else knows more about it than I. 

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Thanks for your time, this is super helpful of you...

One question I have which is really driving me bonkers is this;

a converter charger makes sense, it plugs into my 110 receptacle (where the 1.5a charger is now), and then it sends the power throughout the 12v distribution box to my 12v house lights /fans etc AND likely sends a charge to my coach battery...(I notice that the better converter chargers with a smart charger will know when the battery is full and back off full charging and just "top it off" or trickle charge instead of cooking it with constant charge when I am plugged into shore power)

however, since I am connecting only the + and - white wire ends  (that lead to 12v box) into the converter charger, HOW is it able to shut off (or trickle) current just for the battery while keeping power flowing to to the house lights etc? This rings impossible because of the fact that there is just one source OUT of the converter charger (the + and - end connectors of white wire going into the 12v distribution box)...

Is my confusion clear? I could understand how it could just give a variable charge / trickle to the battery AND keep the house lights going if there were 2 sources out of the "smart" converter charger (one to 12v box one to battery) but a lot of them have just a positive and negative terminal out to 12v box (one source out)...

 

Edited by Boondockit
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A converter with battery charge capability can do the job when just running though two wires (one POS and one NEG).   It has automatic voltage sensing, just like the alternator on the engine does.   Lets say you have the converter plugged into shore-power and you are watching TV, have lights on, and a fan on (all running on 12 volts DC).  That converter will simply supply all the power needed if it is big enough. If it is not, the battery takes up the slack.  Regardless if you are using any DC power devices or not - the converter.charger is always trying to get the battery up to 14 volts and then taper back. Makes no difference if nothing is being used or lots of things are being used.   In the case of a Minicruiser and many other RVs. converters were options.  They did not all come with them. Not everyone camps where there is shore-power.  My family never has and I have never turned on my converter since I've owned my 1988 Minicruiser.

That little Schumacher 1.5 amp battery maintainer works no different then a bigger converter/charger.  It is just small.  Too small to do much of anything since it is rated at a max of 1.5 amps.  Small RVs often come with 15 amp converters and many have 30 or 50 amp converters.  In fact, a 1.5 amp battery maintainer can barely maintain one "house" battery when it starts to get old.  The older a battery gets, the more power it takes to keep it at a "maintenance voltage level."  If you read the directions to that came with that little charger - it will say it is only rated for something like a 70 amp-hour battery (near half the size of a typical house battery).

People who camp a lot at places with AC power tend to want converters that are big enough to power anything DC that might get used.   It is not uncommon to see 80 or 100 amp converters in some bigger RVs.

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"the converter.charger is always trying to get the battery up to 14 volts and then taper back. "

Thanks for your time and effort, I really appreciate it , this is where my pea brain explodes; 

How, if and when I am plugged in to shore power, does it taper back and variate JUST the battery charging levels AND keep the lights going constantly when there is only one source out of the converter charger into the 12v box? How does it "split" and divide it's functions that way with only one output into 12v box?

 

i could easily understand if the converter charger just sent steady constant unvariating current to both house and battery but I can't understand how it can back off just the battery when it Is needed while keeping the flow going with coach lights etc

Edited by Boondockit
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Converter hooks to BATTERY , distribution box hooks to battery. No shore power the lights and stuff run off the battery, slowing draining the battery.

 With shore power when you turn on the lights the converter senses the drain and begins to slowly charge to match the drain, add more drain and the charger keeps adding more current until it reaches its max charge rate.

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38 minutes ago, WME said:

Converter hooks to BATTERY , distribution box hooks to battery. No shore power the lights and stuff run off the battery, slowing draining the battery.

 With shore power when you turn on the lights the converter senses the drain and begins to slowly charge to match the drain, add more drain and the charger keeps adding more current until it reaches its max charge rate.

So, you are saying my wiring as shown in first pic would be quite wrong if I just dropped a converter charger in place of the 1.5a Schumacher...

would you consider drawing a quick crude diagram on paper of what I need and take a photo of it and uploading it here? (utilizing my  existing components and adding to diagram whatever I need to buy)?

i know it's asking a lot but I am completely lost now and the nearest rv place is several hours away...if not, no worries, I just can't picture the wiring of the solution you're recommending...

best 

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12 minutes ago, Boondockit said:

So, you are saying my wiring as shown in first pic would be quite wrong if I just dropped a converter charger in place of the 1.5a Schumacher...

would you consider drawing a quick crude diagram on paper of what I need and take a photo of it and uploading it here? (utilizing my  existing components and adding to diagram whatever I need to buy)?

i know it's asking a lot but I am completely lost now and the nearest rv place is several hours away...if not, no worries, I just can't picture the wiring of the solution you're recommending...

best 

Actually I just saw this, does this look right? If so my wiring system as it is now is really wrong

image.jpg

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1 hour ago, Boondockit said:

Actually I just saw this, does this look right? If so my wiring system as it is now is really wrong

image.jpg

That's how my system is setup. Like I was saying yours doesn't seem right. Is there other wires somewhere that may go to your battery around there? Perhaps look at the connections on your battery and see where they go and what color they are. Try and trace them. I see a white wire with green and another regular one? Are there two wires or is that just the same wire going to the charger?

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12 hours ago, Boondockit said:

"the converter.charger is always trying to get the battery up to 14 volts and then taper back. "

Thanks for your time and effort, I really appreciate it , this is where my pea brain explodes; 

How, if and when I am plugged in to shore power, does it taper back and variate JUST the battery charging levels AND keep the lights going constantly when there is only one source out of the converter charger into the 12v box? How does it "split" and divide it's functions that way with only one output into 12v box?

 

i could easily understand if the converter charger just sent steady constant unvariating current to both house and battery but I can't understand how it can back off just the battery when it Is needed while keeping the flow going with coach lights etc

I am trying to avoid getting too complicated, but this can be a complicated subject.  So just to be clear - lets stick to just the "converter."   That is the device that takes 120 volts AC and turns it into 12-14 volts DC.  Converters in themselves are not all the same.  They can be put into two discrete categories.  

The cheaper, older-tech converters like most of our RVs came with can NOT supply clean DC power without help from the "house" battery.   They use that battery as a sort of power-cleaner and buffer and also to take up slack when more power is needed then the converter can make.  E.g. the owner's manual for the converter in my 1978 Chinook clearly states that it cannot supply clean DC power unless hooked to a battery.

There are newer, higher-tech converters that can be used as stand-alone power-supplies with no battery if wanted.  I have one in one of my rigs. It is an Iota DLS-45. These tend to be fully electronic and also silent (no buzzing like the old converters).

Back to your main question.  As I said, a converter will attempt to make the DC system reach whatever voltage it is designed for.  Often 13-14 volts.  If it is only capable of making 15 amps and you are using 20 amps worth of appliances - then the "house" battery tacks up the short-fall and will eventually get discharged.  NO battery charging can happen then.  Once you stop using all the stuff and the converter is capable of 15 amps - and you are using - let's say 5 amps - then there are 10 amps left to charge the battery back up.   Note that is a very simple and general description.  Many converters have small added battery chargers and there are variations.   So even though a converter is rated 15 amps - it might only have the ability to charge a battery at 8 amps.  All depends on make and  model.

Back to your Schumacher 1.5 amp battery maintainer.  That is an example of a modern fully electronic unit. If it was 30 amps instead of 1.5 amps - you'd be all set.

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Here is an early US patent for a Basler RV converter and power-center.  The 1973 patent gives a full description of theory of operation if you choose to read.  I have two RVs that still have these old Basler converters.  

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I don't quite get how a battery can help make "clean" power when it disconnected from the inverter output during  the charge cycle. In the case of a modern inverter it may have some effect.

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1 hour ago, jdemaris said:

I am trying to avoid getting too complicated, but this can be a complicated subject.  So just to be clear - lets stick to just the "converter."   That is the device that takes 120 volts AC and turns it into 12-14 volts DC.  Converters in themselves are not all the same.  They can be put into two discrete categories.  

The cheaper, older-tech converters like most of our RVs came with can NOT supply clean DC power without help from the "house" battery.   They use that battery as a sort of power-cleaner and buffer and also to take up slack when more power is needed then the converter can make.  E.g. the owner's manual for the converter in my 1978 Chinook clearly states that it cannot supply clean DC power unless hooked to a battery.

There are newer, higher-tech converters that can be used as stand-alone power-supplies with no battery if wanted.  I have one in one of my rigs. It is an Iota DLS-45. These tend to be fully electronic and also silent (no buzzing like the old converters).

Back to your main question.  As I said, a converter will attempt to make the DC system reach whatever voltage it is designed for.  Often 13-14 volts.  If it is only capable of making 15 amps and you are using 20 amps worth of appliances - then the "house" battery tacks up the short-fall and will eventually get discharged.  NO battery charging can happen then.  Once you stop using all the stuff and the converter is capable of 15 amps - and you are using - let's say 5 amps - then there are 10 amps left to charge the battery back up.   Note that is a very simple and general description.  Many converters have small added battery chargers and there are variations.   So even though a converter is rated 15 amps - it might only have the ability to charge a battery at 8 amps.  All depends on make and  model.

Back to your Schumacher 1.5 amp battery maintainer.  That is an example of a modern fully electronic unit. If it was 30 amps instead of 1.5 amps - you'd be all set.

Ok, jdemaris, I can't tell you how much of a relief it was to get that, I especially like this:

"Back to your Schumacher 1.5 amp battery maintainer.  That is an example of a modern fully electronic unit. If it was 30 amps instead of 1.5 amps - you'd be all set."

So, if I drop a 30 amp or higher modern converter charger EXACTLY in place of where that Schumacher 1.5 amp currently is it would work? (even though it would be feeding the 12v box first and not the battery first as others are commenting)...? 

Hope to hear from you soon, thanks!!!!

 

 

 

 

 

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9 hours ago, Boondockit said:

Actually I just saw this, does this look right? If so my wiring system as it is now is really wrong

image.jpg

Yes that is an accurate diagram. $5 says your 120 volt load center is not wired correctly. I see not frame ground from the box etc. I would go with a 60 amp box (pretty normal RV box) it will have 4 breaker slots.It needs to be wired as a sub panel with an isolated neutral. There is one breaker and two circuits and your outlet for your 120 volt system the plug and the romex leave a lot to be desired. Romex is not a good choice for RV's for any voltage  unless it is fastened down due to vibration because of the solid wire. RV/boat type 12 volt sheathed wire has stranded wires inside. It is not what I would call a safe wiring job.

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3 minutes ago, Maineah said:

Yes that is an accurate diagram. $5 says your 120 volt load center is not wired correctly. I see not frame ground from the box etc. I would go with a 60 amp box (pretty normal RV box) it will have 4 breaker slots.It needs to be wired as a sub panel with an isolated neutral. There is one breaker and two circuits and your outlet for your 120 volt system the plug and the romex leave a lot to be desired. Romex is not a good choice for RV's for any voltage  unless it is fastened down due to vibration because of the solid wire. RV/boat type 12 volt sheathed wire has stranded wires inside. It is not what I would call a safe wiring job.

THANKS, I just went out and shot these, does it help?

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9 hours ago, zulandio said:

That's how my system is setup. Like I was saying yours doesn't seem right. Is there other wires somewhere that may go to your battery around there? Perhaps look at the connections on your battery and see where they go and what color they are. Try and trace them. I see a white wire with green and another regular one? Are there two wires or is that just the same wire going to the charger?

I have to get a tone tester to see which ones go to battery, will answer when I do...thanks for your help...

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1 hour ago, Maineah said:

I don't quite get how a battery can help make "clean" power when it disconnected from the inverter output during  the charge cycle. In the case of a modern inverter it may have some effect.

I don't care if you "don't get it."   I am just citing what is in the Basler owner's manual.  Send them a letter and tell them you do not agree.

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1 hour ago, Boondockit said:

Ok, jdemaris, I can't tell you how much of a relief it was to get that, I especially like this:

"Back to your Schumacher 1.5 amp battery maintainer.  That is an example of a modern fully electronic unit. If it was 30 amps instead of 1.5 amps - you'd be all set."

So, if I drop a 30 amp or higher modern converter charger EXACTLY in place of where that Schumacher 1.5 amp currently is it would work? (even though it would be feeding the 12v box first and not the battery first as others are commenting)...? 

Hope to hear from you soon, thanks!!!!

 

As long as the wires between the never converter and the battery and DC panel are large enough, yes.  It all depends on what size converter you buy and also what sort of battery charge capability is has.

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45 minutes ago, Maineah said:

Yes that is an accurate diagram. $5 says your 120 volt load center is not wired correctly. I see not frame ground from the box etc. I would go with a 60 amp box (pretty normal RV box) it will have 4 breaker slots.It needs to be wired as a sub panel with an isolated neutral. There is one breaker and two circuits and your outlet for your 120 volt system the plug and the romex leave a lot to be desired. Romex is not a good choice for RV's for any voltage  unless it is fastened down due to vibration because of the solid wire. RV/boat type 12 volt sheathed wire has stranded wires inside. It is not what I would call a safe wiring job.

Here is a pic of the 120 box,

A = Wire going straight down from box to hole in floor

B= An attached (twisted) wire leading to the big white wire (see very first pic in post at top

C= the exposed wire coming out of the big white wire that leads to nowhere (you can see this nowhere wire in very first pic at top of post

THANKS Maineah!

120.jpg

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4 minutes ago, jdemaris said:

As long as the wires between the never converter and the battery and DC panel are large enough, yes.  It all depends on what size converter you buy and also what sort of battery charge capability is has.

I see, thanks, I would get the type of converter charger that plugs directly in to the outlet (where the existing schumacher is now) so that should be ok for the dc panel right? I have to find which wire leads to battery on this rig...thanks!

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2 minutes ago, Boondockit said:

Here is a pic of the 120 box,

A = Wire going straight down from box to hole in floor

B= An attached (twisted) wire leading to the big white wire (see very first pic in post at top

C= the exposed wire coming out of the big white wire that leads to nowhere (you can see this nowhere wire in very first pic at top of post

 

That white-sheathed cable is UF (underground feeder rated) and I assume 12 gauge?   It is usually used for AC wiring.  It can work fine for DC but the colors are wrong.  With 120 volts AC wiring - black is "hot" and white is "neutral."   In DC wiring black is NEG or ground, and red is POS or "hot."  So it can confuse things.    Also if it is 12 gauge - it is supposed to be protected with a 20 amp fuse or circuit breaker.  If you found a 20 amp converter, using that wire would be fine.  NOT fine if a 30 amp converter or larger.  A 30 amp converter will call for 10 gauge wiring.  A 50 amp converter will call for 8 gauge wiring.

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1 hour ago, Boondockit said:

I have to get a tone tester to see which ones go to battery, will answer when I do...thanks for your help...

This is my box the thick black wire on the right is coming from the battery. All the white wires are grounds. The colored ones go to the 12v lights,  fridge, furnace, and water pump. 

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This is my converter/charger the white wire goes to battery negative.  The red goes to the splitter brick?  I can't get to my battery without dismantleing the couch. But I recall another one of those 2 prong splitter things. I'm guessing one goes to battery and the other to my 12v fuse box.  The negative battery terminal has a copper wire that goes to the negative of the fuse box as well. 

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3 hours ago, zulandio said:

Okay I figured out how my system is setup I think there is a redundant bus box/splitter but oh well. 

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This is helpful thanks! I I am comparing my things to your and I have attached a pic with a red circle around it, what is that exactly that I am circling and what is it's purpose?  I'm curious for my mapping purposes with wiring

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