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Plumbing mysteries


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Maybe the infinite wisdom of this forum can solve my mystery!  And/or maybe @Back East Don can match up my rig to his (I'm assuming it's the same) and help me.

First Pic: what is this valve to the left of the pump? There is some marker scribble on the freshwater tank that seems to correspond with the valve and it reads "Reg" and "Anti".  I'm assuming it's just an on/off valve but the "anti" is throwing me off.
 IMG_20160829_162832686.jpg

Second Pic: It looks like the previous owner disconnected the cold water feed that would continue to the kitchen sink (white-ish hose) and put a brass plug on the outlet of the T - Why in the world would anyone do that?  Seems silly to have hot kitchen water but no cold.  Also, there are two valves near the upper and lower T's that I cannot for the life of me turn.  I assume they are just shutoff valves.  Any tips on freeing them up?
IMG_20160829_162758986.jpg

Final Pic: This might be an electrical topic but it's under the kitchen sink so here we go - what are these connectors for (1 harness and 3 crimp connectors)?  The harness and the 3 crimps all connect to the purple, green, and white wires, which run under the sink, over the hot H2O tank, and then (unless I'm tracking them wrong) seem to go up in the direction of the range hood, which doubles as the digital systems check.  There's an empty slot on the systems dash for a water heater, perhaps there was an optional electric water heater that all these wires went to??    
 IMG_20160829_165322803.jpg

I haven't put any water into the tank or tried a direct water connection.  Could be a 101 leaks when I do... but I hope not!  Thanks.

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Starting with the water pump, looks like someone changed the pump and modified it nine different ways.  The valve flush against the tank is the winterization valve.  Notorious for the orings to leak, simple to rebuild.  The valve on the pump might be a check valve though not sure why it is needed there.  No idea on the water heater stuff but I did have to replace a couple of the valve assemblies as they had cracked from poor winterizing.  Shower and sink.  They are cheap and easy to replace if that is a help.  So where is the cold water line from the kitchen sink.  Any of it left in there? 

The electrical wiring might be the porch light fixture and the floor illumination light.  If you don't have either, those are the feed for them.  Just a guess as I have those and that is what it is connected to.

Testing the water is always fun with the unknown.

The path if I recall is the tank to the pump then to the city water feed which has its own check valve, then T to the shower cold water, T to the toilet T to the cold water bathroom sink, T to the water heater with the final to the cold water kitchen sink valve.  Then the same for the hot, T at the heater with one feed to the kitchen sink, the other to a T under the bathroom sink going to the hot valve and then around to the hot water valve of the shower.  Thinking about it the pump output would go to the city valve and that capped T winterization is just there to empty the water tank.  No idea about the cap at the water heater though.

At some point you'll have to add water and cross your fingers and be prepared to clean up a mess.  There are a couple more of those winterization valves that should be in the back of the storage compartment (under the closet).  Like I said, they are leak prone.  Add water, and turn on the pump and see what happens as there is a lot of hidden line and valves that make visual inspection difficult.  Besides you will more likely than not to find cracks that only reveal themselves under pressure.  Hope this helps at least somewhat.

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OoooH my turn....

Photo 1 is a normal water pump, the valve is one of the winterization valves for your system. SOME WHERE there should be a 2 ft plastic hose with a screw on fitting. Remove the cap on the valve, attach the hose and stick the other end into a gallon of RV anti freeze, turn the valve to anti. When you start to pump antifreeze into your system you draw from the gallon, instead of pouring gallons into your fresh water tank. http://www.pplmotorhomes.com/parts/rv-pumps-water/rv-pump-converter.htm

#2 Is the rest of the winterization system. The two valves you can't turn are the heater bypass valves. Instead of filling your water heater with antifreeze, you bypass the heater and save a bunch of $$. They should have on/off. One sends the water to the heater, the other sends it around. The plug fitting I'm clueless why. http://www.pplmotorhomes.com/parts/rv-water-heaters/rv-winterizing-bypass.htm

#3 Basically clueless, but those look like 12v wires and not 120v ac

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#1 --- Yes!  There is a random piece of hose with a female attachment, good to know what it was intended for :)

#2 --- Any idea on freeing up these valves, I certainly don't want to use the 50gal drum of PB Blaster on my drinking water system!  
@Back East Don, the cold water line to the sink is in that photo, it's just been disconnected from the T fitting on the water heater (that being one of the mysteries!).  All the plumbing seems intact under the sink, although there seems to be a very convoluted method of piping in a water filter.  Could you take a photo of your water heater area and send it to me so I can see what it's supposed to look like?  And are your H and C valves on the kitchen sink backward too? (cold on L, hot on R)

So once I get this stuff put back together how would I go about making sure there is not a leak under the shower pan... I hope it's not just waiting for a wet rug or floor to appear!!

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I would highly advise NEVER drinking from anything in that system being the former owner was pumping methanol or worse into each year. We never drink from ours. We wash dishes and hands and flush pooh. thats it. I wont even water my dog from it.

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17 minutes ago, MaineErik said:

#1 --- Yes!  There is a random piece of hose with a female attachment, good to know what it was intended for :)

#2 --- Any idea on freeing up these valves, I certainly don't want to use the 50gal drum of PB Blaster on my drinking water system!  
@Back East Don, the cold water line to the sink is in that photo, it's just been disconnected from the T fitting on the water heater (that being one of the mysteries!).  All the plumbing seems intact under the sink, although there seems to be a very convoluted method of piping in a water filter.  Could you take a photo of your water heater area and send it to me so I can see what it's supposed to look like?  And are your H and C valves on the kitchen sink backward too? (cold on L, hot on R)

So once I get this stuff put back together how would I go about making sure there is not a leak under the shower pan... I hope it's not just waiting for a wet rug or floor to appear!!

I'll take a photo when I get the chance today.  As to the shower, on mine the panel from the metal trim cap to the floor on that shower front comes off pretty easily.   There are a handful of screws holding that cap.  And yes mine are backwards but I thought that was my mistake when I re-surfaced the countertop with new formica.  Perhaps not or somewhere along the way your previous owner made a similar mistake.  Every trip I think to myself, it wouldn't be that hard to swap them but never get around to it.

Edited by Back East Don
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Alright Erik, no mystery here.  Pretty much like I explained.  T's on the heater in and out.  Cold in then to the cold water faucet of the kitchen sink and hot out is T'd to the rest of the hot water valves in the camper.

hwater.jpg

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  • 3 weeks later...

Went for it this past weekend - used the shore water connection and also filled the tank... not a single leak!  I decided I probably was never going to use the hot water heater, so I just turned off the valves on the heater so that cold water passes by.  I've ignored the disconnected cold water line to the kitchen sink and just used the hot valve.  Bath sink works well.  Didn't try toilet or shower, don't expect to use either, well maybe #1s but not #2s, though with kids they may go for 1 and end up doing 1+2!  Grey holding tank works well.  We drank bottled water, a lot of the pink antifreeze came out when we first started using the system, can't imagine that being OK for the human body... I'll do some more research, maybe with a new filter it would be safe enough.

Only 1 problem: water pump does not turn off automatically, I have to manually shut it on/off using switch.  I tried tapping the valve head as the Shurflo manual stated, no luck.  Guess I will try to disassemble it, clean it, and hope that does the trick... anyone try this before?

I also need to re-lash the grey water tank as the original metal strapping is rusted and broken.  Seems like it's also mounted to the undercarriage in some other secure method cause it's solid even with broken straps.  I'm thinking of using plumbing support strapping (the one with all the pre-stamped holes) or nylon webbing.  

We did all this while visiting Lamoine St Park (Maine) this weekend.  AND there was another Toy camper there, but sadly the owners drove off before we could say hi (must have seen us coming!).  We also spotted a 3rd Toy driving toward the coast on our way back home.  That's a record sightings for us!  It poured rain and was super windy Sunday morning and not a single leak could I detect --- that feels good :) 

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Inside the pump housing (plastic part) is a micro switch  and a spring, the switch under pressure is open once the pressure drops it closes and the pump starts (as long as the switch is on). It's a pretty simple device easily checked with a DVM or test light. If there is trapped air the pump will not shut off either because it will compress and the pressure will not build enough to trip the switch. The switch is a very common micro switch except one connection is missing a replacement will have 3 leads instead of two disregard the NO and connect the NC and C to the two wires. Electrical supply or on line some one will have one they are common. Another problem is some thing trapped in one of the valves the plastic assemble will come off and apart and you can check the valves to make sure all of them close, repair kits are available.

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  • 6 months later...

Well I finally got around to taking the pump apart (it pumps continuously, won't turn off automatically) - all internal pumping parts are good.  The switch itself is good too, I can engage it with my finger and the pump will turn off.  The issue seems to be in the parts that engage the switch - I cannot make the mechanism engage the switch, I can't force the plunger to engage with my fingers, it bottoms out *just* before it would touch the switch.  I found an online manual with a parts diagram, it seems that some parts in a different order and perhaps missing from my unit.  Maybe the pump never worked properly or maybe someone took it apart before I got it and lost some pieces???  Or perhaps there were several series 200 pumps and mine is special...

Here is a photo of the parts between the pump housing and the switch (parts 33-47 in the linked diagram above):

58f28925c9300_IMG_20170415_164505407(1).thumb.jpg.5fadc1f72796f9b672a345befa99d7c1.jpg

Any advice?  Does it look like the right parts are there (I would be amazed if someone has this info in their head!)?  Thanks.

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There is already a bunch of stuff on the buy list, including a new fridge (just need to convince myself to go with propane and abandon the too high cost of switching to 12v + solar!!), so I'm trying my best to repair what isn't completely broken.  I just need to think about this pump a bit longer, I should be able to make it work!  If I can figure out how the increase water pressure would push the plunger into the switch, maybe I need to whittle a new part. 

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On 4/15/2017 at 7:59 PM, MaineErik said:

There is already a bunch of stuff on the buy list, including a new fridge (just need to convince myself to go with propane and abandon the too high cost of switching to 12v + solar!!), so I'm trying my best to repair what isn't completely broken.  I just need to think about this pump a bit longer, I should be able to make it work!  If I can figure out how the increase water pressure would push the plunger into the switch, maybe I need to whittle a new part. 

What you have is a 3 chamber rotary pump. The pressure builds on the discharge side, lifts the hardware in your picture against spring pressure and switches the pump off. So basically if water is not leaking out of the pump it kind of means all the round rubber parts are all right. So this leaves you with A, the switch is toes up,  B, pressure is not building enough to close the switch. B could include a leak in the water system or a stuck valve in the pump chamber not allowing the pressure to build high enough. There are 2 screws holding the the switch assembly to the top of the pump hold the housing down and remove the screws it is under spring pressure this is why you have to hold it down. Once it's apart you can remove the switch and all of the round rubber parts. Remove 1 wire from the switch turn the pump on push the button in on the switch touch the wire to the terminal don't reinstall it because if it doesn't turn off you might get a bath. If it doesn't turn off the switch is bad. It's kind of unlikely the rubber stuff is bad it is really a simple set up. So that would leave you with a plumbing leak or a chamber valve. 

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I tested the system without water to make sure the switch worked if I manually operated it - it does.  I have it all back together now and will setup a bucket with water and a temp valve to see if the system will work as intended.  It looks like the water pressure has to build high enough to seep through the valve plate and expand the rubber diaphragm enough engage the switch -- that amazes me, that the small diaphragm can handle that pressure -- the spring is rather strong.  Maybe there was debris in there and all my fiddling cleaned it out. I will report back!

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46 minutes ago, MaineErik said:

I tested the system without water to make sure the switch worked if I manually operated it - it does.  I have it all back together now and will setup a bucket with water and a temp valve to see if the system will work as intended.  It looks like the water pressure has to build high enough to seep through the valve plate and expand the rubber diaphragm enough engage the switch -- that amazes me, that the small diaphragm can handle that pressure -- the spring is rather strong.  Maybe there was debris in there and all my fiddling cleaned it out. I will report back!

The spring reacts against the water pressure but the plunger is pretty large as you have seen the spring is pretty strong but not 25+ pound worth it's all by design. (that entire assembly moves) You will have to dead end the pump. It will shut off pretty quickly and most likely will cycle on and off fairly rapidly because it has no air cushion to maintain  pressure so don't let it run too long.

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I heated the spring with a torch and compressed it a bit, perhaps the max psi will be lower than stock now (perhaps the pump lacks some of it's original gusto to achieve the OEM pressure, which is why it could not overcome the stock spring rate).  Now the pump works and will shut off automatically.  This is all in my test basin, I don't have it re-connected to the coach plumbing system. 
Question: When the valve is shut the pump continues to for another 1-2sec before shutting off, is that normal?  

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