Carlb

[carlb]

I have been looking at these little MH thinking one might fit my needs. We spent ten years with a ton pu and 38' 5w, so now are looking at the other end of the line. .Is there some source which would provide some summary of all the different types of units that might be available???

 

carlb

oregon

[WME]

Reality check. The desirable units were built between 1987 and 1994, with 1986 being acceptable. So a 22 to 30 year old RV is what your looking at. They may be cute but all the components are the same as a full size RV. What do you think of a 25 year old water heater.

Real MPG is in the 12-15 mpg range at Toyota speeds, 55-60 mph. 200 mi range between fill ups, 25 gal fresh water, 15 gal gray and black tanks so 2 maybe 3 days between dumps with 2 people.

Easy to park and drive compared to what you used to. For weekends good, going cross country you had better be friends

On something this old there are no bad units only bad previous owners with bad maintenance habits. Be prepared to kiss a lot of toads be for your find your princess.

Biggest unit and worst built Odyssey, smallest (tightest) unit  and best built SunRader.  Everything else is in between.

Good Luck

[Back East Don]

There are lots of regional differences in pricing but most of what you'll likely find as nearly a rule, is not going to be the cream of the crop.  I've been on the search for a specific floor plan Sunrader in my area for two years now and they just are not very common here.  I'm not even looking for one in perfect condition.  This brings up a very important point.  How much work do you want to get into?  These are seldom turn key and owning one means constantly chasing its decline.  Who knows, some have gotten lucky and found great deals in their neighborhoods.

So lets say you are good on the work involved.  My advice is hit Craigslist and figure out how to do an extended area search to include as large a circle of your area as possible.  Then do that search at least three or four times a day.  I recently helped someone find theirs by doing this.  Your best chance with one that is at least worth fixing up, is to get first in line.  They can go really fast and the cheaper it is, the more the seller is swamped with calls.  Be prepared for some driving and disappointment.  It is sometimes just part of the process.  If you've money to burn and can fly in somewhere, Ebay will have listings along with Craigslist for reportedly "perfect" examples all over the country.  I'd still be pretty wary.  Someone in Maine is listing such a Sunrader for the low low price of $18k.  My wife would insist on me getting my head examined if I even were to suggest it.  Smart lady.

Before buying, the important thing is to learn what to look for.  First on the list is water damage.  The front berth being the most common issue and the roof condition is super important.  Be sure to bring a ladder and really look up top.  All the water problems are a top down issue.  Second.  Everything should work.  The three most expensive items are going to be the fridge, roof AC and truck AC. (add generator if it has one).   Don't take anyone's word that they work.  Have them demonstrate it.  If they tell you it just needs the refrigerant recharged, it needs to be replaced.  Mine, the fridge sort of worked.  Replacement cost nearly a grand.

So welcome to the forum.  Please feel free to ask any questions you have.  .

Edited August 20, 2016 by Back East Don

[jjrbus]

Welcome, there is a vast array of years, size's, drive trains, floor plans available.  I have not seen a complete list anywhere.

A good way to figure out what to check for is to go through the archives and see what people are fixing,   lot's of rot repairs!

I have to agree on searching for one, it gets very frustrating to drive a long ways for a great condition unit only to find a piece of junk.  It is unlikely that I would fly to look at one unless I had other persons other than the owners opinion on the unit.

The big offenders I see are 15 to 20 MPG,   OK 12 on the highway and 8 in the city 12+8=20, see not a lie. Disclaimer, some of the smaller 4 cyl standards might get this kind of mileage but not a 20 foot V6 with an auto.

AC needs a charge of gas.   If it needs a charge it is broken,  if it is broken it will likely cost  $$$$$$$$  to fix!

Tires have lots of thread, but they are 10 years old and ready to blowup!   Learn to read a date code.    http://www.tirerack.com/tires/tiretech/techpage.jsp?techid=11

Many will not drive on tires over 7 years old.   

I like WME's post,  every part on the one I have has broken!   So they take a lot of time and cash to maintain.   The Toyota part of the unit is much better than the motorhome part.

   Good luck    Jim

 

[jmowrey]

8 hours ago, WME said:

15 gal gray and black tanks so 2 maybe 3 days between dumps with 2 people.

 

We have an 85 Dolphin. 19 gallon black water (I checked it using a flow meter on filling) 21 gallon grey water. With conservation measures we have gone 6 days with two people and a dog and not even come close to filling those. The shower is the big offender for the grey water tank. Use the campsite's showers or be very conservative. I can shower using about 1.5 gallons from a pour bottle. Pretty spartan shower though. Also, dish washing adds a lot to the grey tank. I use a plastic pan in the sink and dump it outside instead of down the drain. If you are boon docking and have no water source to refill your fresh water tank, that can be limiting.

[markwilliam1]

Another major concern is Dry Rot and I'm not talking only tires! When I bought my 86 Granville this spring with only 36K I thought I got a cherry rig only to later find Every rubber component in the front end was dry rotted to the point of deteriorating. Couldn't even recognize the ball joints. Even the front brake pads had cracked. Had to replace just about everything. The one good thing was the brake lines were OK. The rig had sat unused for 5 years but the PO had started it on occasion. Even the tires looked beautiful. They were Bridgestones purchased in 1999 with only 5K miles on them. Thanks to Derek up North who stated they weren't even made anymore and not considered safe due to age I had to purchase 7 Nexen tires! All food for thought.

[5Toyota]

I do mostly boon docking I have an 87 dolphin late 86 chassis the best set up is the full six lug front and rear that way the spare fits all .  it has a 17 gallon                   fresh water tank the black and grey are 18 gallon each . I carry an 18 gallon thetford  smart tote auxelry waste tank. if wife and dauter are with  me. by myself I can do a week on the main tank.                                             to expand the fresh water capisity I carry a plastic flex funnel and four five gallon water tanks the insulated type . with big lids easy to clean. then take a one gallon jug and bail ten more gallons in after two or three days. I have been going to rig up a nother  electric rv pump on a board with battery clips  to make reloading water  faster and easyer. welcome here.

[zero]

14 hours ago, carlb said:

Is there some source which would provide some summary of all the different types of units that might be available???

Carlb, oregon

Are you talking about just Toyota-based micro-mini motorhomes - or any motorome that is small (under 7000 GVWR) and has 14-20 MPG potential?  Toyotas in the USA ceased in the USA around 1994 when Toyota stopped selling the Hilux truck in the USA.  After that - there are other small RVs of similar size and fuel-mileage potential.  French based Winnebago LeSharo, Phasar, and Centuri.  VW based Winnebago Rialta.  Chevy Astrovan-based Allegro, Establishment-Aerolite or Provan.  Probably the most common of the newest ones are the VW-based Rialtas and they are NOT cheap.  Note I did not count the newest Sprinter-van-based RVs or the Ford Transist-van-based RVs simply because they cost so much and are fairly new.

Here's a article published in 1979 that discusses the many small micro-minis at that time.  I think it is fair to say that the class-C micro-mini was started by the alliance between Toyota and Chinook in 1972 with their "Round Tripper."  At least if not the first, it was the first time an auto-company struck a deal and had input in a small motorhome design for sale in the USA. Round trippers and Chinooks had tops that folded down that made them pretty fuel efficient and are one of the few Toyota motorhomes rated for trailer-towing.  They were made up through 1979.

Here's a list of Toyota micro-minis I know of.

Belair, Blue Marlin, Bonanza Travelers, Cal Camper, Chinook, Coachman, Cobra-Daytona, Conquest, Dolphin, Durango, Encore, Enterprise, Escaper, Granville, GULF STREAM, Heritage, Huntsman, Itasca, Keystone, Little Chief, Little Gypsy, Mirage, MRV, Muskeet, New Horizon, New World, Odyssey , Okanagan, , Perris Valley, Pilgrim, Pontex,  R.B.R., Roll-A-Long, Royal Hawaiian ,  Sand Pak , Sandtana,  Seabreeze, Shasta , Sterner , Sunland, Sun Line, Sunrader, Travelmaster, Travette, TRT, Vader, and Winnebago

 

[jjrbus]

4 hours ago, markwilliam1 said:

Another major concern is Dry Rot and I'm not talking only tires! When I bought my 86 Granville this spring with only 36K I thought I got a cherry rig only to later find Every rubber component in the front end was dry rotted to the point of deteriorating. Couldn't even recognize the ball joints. Even the front brake pads had cracked. Had to replace just about everything. The one good thing was the brake lines were OK. The rig had sat unused for 5 years but the PO had started it on occasion. Even the tires looked beautiful. They were Bridgestones purchased in 1999 with only 5K miles on them. Thanks to Derek up North who stated they weren't even made anymore and not considered safe due to age I had to purchase 7 Nexen tires! All food for thought.

On mine one rubber part would be bad and one good, some questionable, as long as I had it apart I replaced all bushings and such.   Jim

[MaineErik]

On 8/20/2016 at 1:34 AM, WME said:

Real MPG is in the 12-15 mpg range at Toyota speeds, 55-60 mph. 200 mi range between fill ups...

I drove to PA from ME recently to pick up our 86 Itasca - on the return trip (~700 miles) we consistently got 17-18mpg while averaging 60mph.  The truck has a 17gal tank, so we were filling up around 200 miles but we were never near empty and by then a short break was always appreciated anyway  

The only surprise (negative) I was given with these old Toy Campers is the level of noise in the cabin - wind noise.  My kids sit in the back and it's pretty much a yelling match when we want to converse about something.  My eyes were always for a Sunrader, but as others have said they are hard to come by - so I was happy to settle for anything else.  It's a bit like buying an old pair of used shoes, it really doesn't matter who made the shoes originally, what matters is what condition they are in when you get them.  Any camper you're going to look at is good enough that it's lasted 30years already - just be prepared to buy some new laces, replace the footbed, and do a resole maybe!

[Back East Don]

2 hours ago, MaineErik said:

I drove to PA from ME recently to pick up our 86 Itasca - on the return trip (~700 miles) we consistently got 17-18mpg while averaging 60mph.  The truck has a 17gal tank, so we were filling up around 200 miles but we were never near empty and by then a short break was always appreciated anyway  

The only surprise (negative) I was given with these old Toy Campers is the level of noise in the cabin - wind noise.  My kids sit in the back and it's pretty much a yelling match when we want to converse about something.  My eyes were always for a Sunrader, but as others have said they are hard to come by - so I was happy to settle for anything else.  It's a bit like buying an old pair of used shoes, it really doesn't matter who made the shoes originally, what matters is what condition they are in when you get them.  Any camper you're going to look at is good enough that it's lasted 30years already - just be prepared to buy some new laces, replace the footbed, and do a resole maybe!

Well said.  I will only note that the Itasca 19RB is rather light in comparison to many.  I too have gotten similar mileage on my trips around New England and other than the steeper grades, manage to keep pretty close to highway speeds. 

[zero]

There were many controlled fuel-mileage road-tests done by various camper and RV magazines.  Just about all show figures around 13-15 MPG for a 20-21 footer with an automatic trans and 2.4 engine.  A few with standard shift up in the 16-18 MPG range and all those tests were at 55-60 MPH.  My point being that if anyone is actually getting (not just reporting) a highway average of 17-18 MPG with a non-lockup automatic trans, it is an anomaly. Certainly not the norm.

[Back East Don]

2 hours ago, jdemaris said:

There were many controlled fuel-mileage road-tests done by various camper and RV magazines.  Just about all show figures around 13-15 MPG for a 20-21 footer with an automatic trans and 2.4 engine.  A few with standard shift up in the 16-18 MPG range and all those tests were at 55-60 MPH.  My point being that if anyone is actually getting (not just reporting) a highway average of 17-18 MPG with a non-lockup automatic trans, it is an anomaly. Certainly not the norm.

I very much hesitated writing that response almost knowing you would question it.  I only initially kept track of this the first year as a curiosity.  In the longer highway only trips it was common for the math to work out to 16 point something.  So no combined figures here.  I would fill up at a station just before getting on the highway and log the miles till the next fill up.  That year we camped ocean side and stayed put so even with shorter trips, fill up would again be prior to getting back on the highway.  In these trips the ratio of city driving was pretty small.  The Itasca 19RB is about 5k lbs.  The loaded to the max weight came in at 5460 with the wife and I.

It has been a number of years since I last busted out the calculator for this.  When some time back there was a post about weight, this seemed at least some reason for possibly why.  Erik is stating 16-17.  I've done that as well.  Automatic, reasonably attempting to follow along with traffic with the exception roads with 70 mph speed limits.  I could easily push it hard and watch the mileage drop. Besides taking it easy, the only thing I do is engage and disengage OD load permitting.  You are familiar with New England.  Roads have roller coaster ups and downs in places. Gain speed before a hill and if it is a long grade, settle in at a low speed till you crest.

Edit: I misread Erik's mileage. He states 17-18.  I've certainly peaked close to 17 but don't ever recall 18.  Account for the shore community driving and then maybe, perhaps.  I'm sticking with an average of 16 point something average.

Edited August 22, 2016 by Back East Don

[zero]

I know a guy in the Michigan UP that has four Toyota micro-minis.  A Sunrader, two Dolphins, and a Winnebago.  All 20-21 footers and all four-cylinder. He claims his Winnebago, 22RE and auto trans, does much better then the rest for fuel mileage but never gave me any real figures. He thinks it is more aerodynamic. Maybe it is?

There very well indeed may be anomalies out there. My problem is - whenever I've heard of one close enough for me to check out - the claims were never true. Not even once. I'm not talking about just Toyota RVs. I'm talking diesel pickups, my dad's 1972 Buick Skylark, etc.  My dad claimed 20 MPG with a 350 V8 and he was not a liar.  I got the car when he died and drove for awhile. It got around 11-12 MPG at best.  In that case, I'm sure - due to that Buick's huge gas tank, and the fact that all his suburban trips were maybe a mile apart - a tank lasted a long time.  That long-time frame likely gave my dad the "feeling" of getting 20 MPG. I am NOT saying that is your case.   I am simply saying - that after 50 years of hearing fuel-mileage claims that did not pan out - I tend to believe things when I actually witness them. Or, read them in a controlled test.

I will also note that I bragged up my 1992 Dodge diesel truck for years because it could get 21 MPG on the highway if I kept it at 60 MPH or less.  That for a 4WD, extended-cab truck with a long-bed.  THEN - I discovered with a GPS that my speedometer and odometer were both off by quite a bit.  I found out that the little speedometer transmission used by Dodge caused the "pleasant" error.  I got the correct ratio gearbox made, put it in, and my fuel mileage dropped to 18.5 MPG. Kind of depressing. I felt like I ruined the truck.

I will note that the absolute highest fuel-mileage test I have ever read (for a "full-size" Toyota RV) was with a 1986 Winnebago 19 footer.  I will also note that weight has very little effect on fuel-mileage if checking long-trip highway mileage.   

This road-test done by Motorhome Magazine was done in 1986.  They tested a new Winnebago 319RB with a 22RE and auto trans.  Also stated to have a 3.9 to 1 rear instead of the usual 4.1 to 1.  A steady trip, altitude of 900 feet, flat highway, temp of 75 degrees F, and max speed of 55 MPH yielded 18.5 with overdrive "on", and 19.5 MPG with overdrive "off."  Weight of the RV with no passengers or cargo was 4860 lbs.   

This report on a 1984 Mirage is NOT from a magazine but is well written.

- 1984 Mirage
- Purchase Price $12,255 new in September 1983
- Dimensions 17.5' long, 8.5' tall, 7'-8" wide (at rear)
- weight 3600 pounds empty
- 1983 Toyota C&C chassis (no a/c, no power steering)
- Engine 2.4L-L4 w/carburetor, rated 96hp with California emissions
- Transmission 4 speed stick shift
- Fuel economy 20.1 mpg averaged over an entire 3 week trip with two adults.
- Sold in May 2007 for $7,600 with 107,000 miles

To average 20 mpg on trips we had to limit top speed to 57 mph. Going 65-70 mph didn't buy us any time because of stopping more often for gas. At higher cruising speeds it would get under 15 mpg. And with such a small fuel tank, we had to stop every 3 hours or run the risk of running out of gas.

[Back East Don]

Both Erik and I have the same 19 footer, just one year apart.  I know what his is because I found it for him.  His an 86, mine an 87.

I have only one trip left that is scheduled for this year.  It is a trip to the Cape with travel occurring on Friday after my wife is done work.  It will surely mean traffic especially at the Bourne Bridge to get over the canal.  I could log this trip if you want and see where I end up.  I've no dog in this.  I travel only within 200 miles from home.  If gas was $20 a gallon and I only got 10 miles per gallon, I could still afford to go.  I am starting to see that with boats that come in at 3-4 nautical miles per gallon or worse.

After this trip, the cooling system gets torn down along with tune up and a look at the valve adjustment.  I've not figured out the fall fishing yet but we are leaning more towards boat fishing which would not involve the camper.

[zero]

26 minutes ago, Back East Don said:

 I am starting to see that with boats that come in at 3-4 nautical miles per gallon or worse.

My 17' Glastron with a 105 horse Chrysler outboard, at full throttle - got around 1 gallon per mile as I figure it.  We used to camp on an Adirondack Island for a week at a time.  Boat access only.  6 miles round trip. One day my son wanted me to do the entire trip full throttle.  So, we did and my tanks are 6 gallons each.  One round trip started with a full tank and we got back with a near-empty tank.

I replaced the engine with a 60s era 55 horse 4-stroke-cycle engine and get MUCH better fuel mileage.  Pretty neat outboard, based on the old Crosley car engine tipped sideways.

[WME]

Did you know that the Shelby "Cobra" almost didn't get called Cobra. Crosley had trade marked Cobra. Their original engine block was COpper BRAzed out of 120+ pieces of stamp steel.

[Back East Don]

5 hours ago, jdemaris said:

My 17' Glastron with a 105 horse Chrysler outboard, at full throttle - got around 1 gallon per mile as I figure it.  We used to camp on an Adirondack Island for a week at a time.  Boat access only.  6 miles round trip. One day my son wanted me to do the entire trip full throttle.  So, we did and my tanks are 6 gallons each.  One round trip started with a full tank and we got back with a near-empty tank.

I replaced the engine with a 60s era 55 horse 4-stroke-cycle engine and get MUCH better fuel mileage.  Pretty neat outboard, based on the old Crosley car engine tipped sideways.

Fortunately modern boats and engines fair better.  At a mere 17 ft that is abysmal even at full throttle.  I asked my wife wouldn't she prefer the leisurely lifestyle of sailing.  I know how to sail.  Her response was the question, do they make good fishing boats.  Sailing is out it seems.