Looking at a suspiciously cheap 86 22re Dolphin, thoughts/advice?

[Loudog]

Hi folks,

I'm Looking at an 86 Dolphin, auto 22re With about 65k on it. $2900 and it's been,in the classifieds for almost a week in a place where good deals go the next day.

I'm going to drive it in a few days. Owner says it has black smoke but runs great. What do I really need to look for? Any guide to buying, or leak/mold detection? Thanks

[fred heath]

Is the owner a dealer? There seem to be several motorhomes in the picture.

Black smoke is usually fuel related. Engine is running too "rich".

It appears that it may have the bad axle. I only see a single rear wheel with cheap plastic wheel cover. The correct axle should have 6 lugs, not 5. Usually they are a duel wheel setup not single.

I think "due diligence" is the name of the game in this case.

[Loudog]

It's parked behind a motel where people rent space. The guy brought up both from another state and is selling the Dolphin. 

 

I am am a total newbie and know nothing about RVs or Toyotas except that the 22re is invincible. Any other pointers are much appreciated

[Loudog]

And what is the problem with the bad axle, worst case scenario?

[fred heath]

My toy is a much older home (1979). There are members here with the same model as your looking at. They will be able to give much better advice than I can.

Research "axle facts" in this forum. It will give you all the necessary information you'll need.

Basically some manufacturer's added a second rear wheel to their products to increase weight carrying capacity. The design of the Toyota axle does not do well with this, allowing the axle shaft to break. The rear "foolie" can then just fall of the vehicle.

[WME]

Worse case???? A rear wheel comes off and tears a hole in the inside and joins the passenger.

Remove the rear hubcap and take a picture of the rear hub and tire assy. To replace the "bad" axle with the "good" axle is about $2500.

[Wade]

First thing you should have in mind is what is your budget?  $2900 may be a deal or way too much but if you want a reliable MH that is going to be around for a while it will definitely cost much more than that.  Unless of course you don't care about your safety or that of those around you;-)

There is a great sticky thread on here in the Engines forum that goes through the most common things you should expect to have to do. At a minimum you should inspect the unit with that list in mind and get a handle for what you can afford to address.

Make sure rust hasn't done any serious damage to the frame ans suspension mounting points.

We just looked at an 86 Dolphin and the guy selling it, while bragging about what good shape it was in, said not to climb the ladder as it was "loose".  Looking under the sink and around the rear window and ceiling you could see the signs of old water damage and the reason the ladder was "loose" was because there was very serious damage to the rear framing material. Above the cab there was also water damage and that is where it is very common in any older unit where the roof and seams were not properly maintained.

You won't have to spend too much time looking through the forum to see what various people have done to repair these kinds of damage. If you are a good carpenter and have the time, tools, and budget this may not be a deal breaker for you but it is a significant amount of work!

The biggest hit to my budget on our recent purchase so far was that we didn't test the fridge first and unfortunately it is shot.  Unless I find a good used unit at a bargain this is going to add somewhere between $400 and $900 to the purchase price. If I were content to live plugged in, $250 or less would replace it with an electric unit but I want to boondock.

The black smoke sounds like it is running rich. Not sure what that would cost to fix.  I would certainly also pull the transmission dipstick and smell the fluid.  If it is dark and smells burnt I would probably move along.  OTOH, the pictures at least make it look like the interior hasn't taken water damage or someone has already repaired it. If the coach is really solid and all coach systems work perhaps it still would be OK even if you had to replace the engine and tranny. The way I look at it with things this old is simply what will it take to keep it on the road in a condition I want to be in?

FWIW, we bought ours for $3500. At the time I was figuring it was going to be about a $6k purchase. If you don't know about tire date codes learn and look. The unit we bought had perfect looking tires that, before I owned a different old RV, I would have thought would last me for years. After learning that lesson the hard way I looked at the date codes and certainly planned to replace the 12 year old tires that looked great.  6 new tires and a brake job before a single thing could be done so you can understand why I knew it was going to be a $6k purchase and not a $3500 purchase. I want to be able to travel without worrying. If I were always going to be within 100 miles from home I would still do the brakes and tires but would probably defer several hundred $ in new rubber under the hood.

While I am very impressed with what some of the forum members have done with their units, I would not want to buy one like the 86 Dolphin we looked at because I don't want to spend all that time doing all the carpentry work required.  The rest of it, to me, is much easier.

Good luck

 

Wade

Edited June 13, 2016 by Wade

[Derek up North]

The easy way to check the rear axle is to pull the hub cap on the rear and compare it to the axle of the Winnebago parked next to it. The Winnie axle is the 'good' one.

[zero]

13 hours ago, Loudog said:

cHi folks,

I'm Looking at an 86 Dolphin, auto 22re With about 65k on it. $2900 and it's been,in the classifieds for almost a week in a place where good deals go the next day.

I'm going to drive it in a few days. Owner says it has black smoke but runs great. What do I really need to look for? Any guide to buying, or leak/mold detection? Thanks

Where was it for sale?  Just curious. I just camped for a week in the Michigan UP an came across this Dolphin.  I stopped and asked about it and the guy had just bought it the day before. He said it was on Craigs List for a couple of weeks for around $3000.   I looked it over quickly and saw is has the  "no-so-good" semi-floating rear and dual extension kit that caused the well known problems.  Also has quite a bit of rot when you look close. The new owner would not tell me how much he got if for, but his wife (or girl friend) said he paid too much.  Said they bought this Dolphin in the Petoskey area of Michigan in the lower peninsula.  I suspect purchase price was around $3000.  New 185R-14C tires on it all around, but no full-floating rear.

[zero]

By the way, the price mentioned is not abnormally cheap. I come across similar rigs for less then $2000. I paid $1800 for my 1988.

[Totem]

hmmm jde, that golphin does have the rear dinette... a nice floor plan. maybe that makes it worth 3k. not with a bad axle though

[DanAatTheCape]

depending on what it needs, that price may be a little high - or not.

 

do not pooh pooh the axle thing - the non floaters were subject to recall because they can cause deaths.  Read the section on axles - please!

[Derek up North]

35 minutes ago, DanAatTheCape said:

... they can cause deaths.

They can, but to my knowledge, there's never been a death documented.

[zero]

I cannot say I've come across any documented deaths due to a faulty rear-axle either.  Not even any bad injuries.  Worst one I've read is when a wheel and axle came off a Toyota RV, traveled across the highway median, and caused an accident in the other traffic lane.  Even if a case WAS found where someone was injured badly - who is to say what the fault was?  The only way the axle could be fairly called "faulty" is if it was properly maintained and NOT overloaded.  Good luck with that.

[zero]

Here are some documented reports of rear axle/wheels falling off of Toyotas. Note that most are not even RVs.

 TOYOTA 4 RUNNER 1995   Driving At 30mph The Rear axle broke on the driver's side, causing the driver to lose complete control of the vehicle. *ak

 

TOYOTA COROLLA 1994  While Driving, The Left side rear axle broke, causing the wheel to fly off, vehicle lost control, 

 

TOYOTA 4 RUNNER 2000  Rear Axle Broke Causing Vehicle to rollover 3 times.

 

TOYOTA COROLLA 2001  Traveling On Straight Section Of road. rear driver side axle sheared in half, causing vehicle to roll over.

 

TOYOTA TOYOTA TRUCK 1983  Left Rear Axle Fell Off, 

 

TOYOTA TOYOTA TRUCK 1985  Rear Axle Bearing Failure. fear of axle breakage as described in nhtsa action number pe86074. toyota states no responsibility.

 

TOYOTA COROLLA 1980  While Driving The Left Rear axle came off of vehicle, resulting in wheel falling off (ohio traffic crash report).

 

TOYOTA 4 RUNNER 1992  Right Rear Axle Snapped, causing tire to fall off/accident.

 

TOYOTA TACOMA 2002  2002 Toyota Tacoma. Consumer states in 2010 while backing out of the backyard, the left wheel axle broke *tgw the consumer stated

 

TOYOTA COROLLA 1999 Vehicle Piece On Axle Broke off which resulted in an accident.*mr consumer loss control of the vehicle.

 

TOYOTA 4 RUNNER 1990  Consumer Was Driving 40 To 45 mph the rear passenger side rear axle came off causing the truck to rollover truck was totaled

 

. TOYOTA PICKUP 1992  The Left Rear Wheel Completely separated from the axle assembly

[Totem]

Point of the slang "Death Axle" is... after it happens you will wish for death as your trip is over and your wife is beating you with a tire iron for cheaping out on not getting a full floater.

[zero]

I'm lucky my wife is not yet tough enough to beat me up.  But  . . . she is 12 years younger then me, and pretty soon I'm afraid she will be my physical superior.  I guess then I'll have to be nicer and more compliant.

[NateRogers]

Hi guys,

Great forum! Unfortunately, I found it too late. I just bought a 5 lug, 85-86 sun land express. Checked vin, but no recall info, but I doubt it's the rare beefed up 5 lug, as it doesn't seem to have bolts on center cap. 

Can anyone verify?

Otherwise, this Toyota is in almost pristine shape, all original and EXTREMLY well taken care of. 

40k, 4 speed, 22re. 

Thanks

Nate

Edited June 25, 2016 by NateRogers
Add info

[Derek up North]

Sorry, but you're now in the market for a new axle.

[NateRogers]

10 minutes ago, Derek up North said:

Sorry, but you're now in the market for a new axle.

I figured as much, well, thanks for verifying!

[Up north mi]

That dolphin in the UP was bought from my neighbor for 3000 dollars it needed some work

[zero]

Yes, the woman I spoke to said the buyer found it on the lower peninsula around Petoskey and could not talk the seller down much on price.  I saw quite a bit of rot here and there. $3000 seems high to me for this area.  My 1988 was in better shape and I paid $1800 in the Alpena area of northern MI.

[zero]

19 hours ago, NateRogers said:

I figured as much, well, thanks for verifying!

You could get by safely with single wheels in back, and good tires as long as you verify the axle bearings are in good shape.  It's the add-in 2nd wheels on each side that create the danger.

[NateRogers]

I didn't know you could pull the foolie tire, I assumed the tire itself was significant in distributing the load. 

I have found some toyota 6 lug trucks for around 800-1000 on Craigslist. 2 of them 87'-89' actually still running with 22re engine! Catch is they are 4x4 and I'm not sure of compatibility. 

[fred heath]

To go to singles you MUST weigh the rear of the motor home. It will be difficult to find single tires that can hold the weight and still fit into the wheel opening. 27" diameter is usually the max.

 

[NateRogers]

Would be nice to find a longer axle shaft and simply install an outer bearing to make it full float. 

If some seemingly ghost-like rare 85 and 86's have the extended center hub, allowing full float, seems like the parts were once produced to add a second bearing with a longer axle shaft. 

Im sure there's more to it, as it would have been suggested earlier, but there's may be another method to solving this problem. 

Im also curious if there are specifics to what makes an acceptable donor truck. 

Wheel base, axle shaft size, 4x4 compatible axles, etc. I've seen a lot of specs mentioned but they range all over the board! Surely specific to sunland vs dolphin vs chinook vs 4 runner...

Edited June 26, 2016 by NateRogers

[zero]

38 minutes ago, NateRogers said:

thI didn't know you could pull the foolie tire, I assumed the tire itself was significant in distributing the load. 

I have found some toyota 6 lug trucks for around 800-1000 on Craigslist. 2 of them 87'-89' actually still running with 22re engine! Catch is they are 4x4 and I'm not sure of compatibility. 

6 lug rear axle on a 4WD truck has nothing to do with the 6 lug full-floater used in these RVs.   6 lug axle on a 4WD truck is no different then what you already have as far as load capacity and being a semi-floater.

[zero]

5 minutes ago, NateRogers said:

Would be nice to find a longer axle shaft and simply install an outer bearing to make it full float. 

If some seemingly ghost-like rare 85 and 86's have the extended center hub, allowing full float, seems like the parts were once produced to add a second bearing with a longer axle shaft. 

Im sure there's more to it, as it would have been suggested earlier, but there's may be another method to solving this problem. 

Im also curious if there are specifics to what makes an acceptable donor truck. 

Wheel base, axle shaft size, 4x4 compatible axles, etc. I've seen a lot of specs mentioned but they range all over the board! Surely specific to sunland vs dolphin vs chinook vs 4 runner...

The full-floating rear was not some sort or adaptation onto the original semi-floater. It is a totally different rear-axle housing that came from Japanese Dyna school-busses.  the 6 lug wheels on a full-floater have a bolt-circle of 7.25".  Nothing else using that pattern except for some old Dodge, IH, Ford trucks with 16 or 17" tires and split-rims.  Also the Korean equivalent to the US Humvee.

[Derek up North]

46 minutes ago, NateRogers said:

I didn't know you could pull the foolie tire, I assumed the tire itself was significant in distributing the load. 

I have found some toyota 6 lug trucks for around 800-1000 on Craigslist. 2 of them 87'-89' actually still running with 22re engine! Catch is they are 4x4 and I'm not sure of compatibility. 

The 6 lug axle of a 4x4 is NOT what you want.

[NateRogers]

3 minutes ago, Derek up North said:

The 6 lug axle of a 4x4 is NOT what you want.

Ok, glad you said something. I was going to go look at it Monday, so I'm glad you saved me $1000 already  thank you Derek

[NateRogers]

Are Uhauls the best option, only?

I read that 4 runners are changeable!

Also, just a crazy thought, but if there is less tire pressure in the outer tire, it still will assist weight distribution, but take less of the load at the extent of the leverage causing the problem. Not a permanent solution, but if I'm driving to a mechanic. 

Also, would there be a way to add extra bearings around the middle of the drive shaft, to distribute the flex in the shaft from excess weight?

i read a lot of literature and some say the axle breaks, and others mention the lug extensions for the Doulie snap and the wheel goes flying!

where is the weak point on the shaft? Or is it the lugs that hold on the doulie?

i know, Its probably not fixable, except full replacement, but there are always 10 ways to fix most problems, and 1000 ways to make it worse.

thanks for a great forum guys!

nate 

[Derek up North]

The NHTSA made recommendations for those 'forced' to drive with 'foolies'.

Page 42.

National Axle Recall RC-91V060-NN.PDF

[zero]

1 hour ago, NateRogers said:

Are Uhauls the best option, only?

I read that 4 runners are changeable!

nate 

No, not the only option. There were non-Uhaul box-trucks and flatbed trucks with the full-floating rears.  Also junked Toyota motorhomes that were once upgraded or came with the FF OEM.   I have no idea what you mean with the 4-Runner idea. No different then what I already stated about the 6 lug semi-floater used on 4WD trucks.   

There are full-floating conversion kits to convert a Toyota semi-floater into a full-floater.  They use the parts from the front of a Toyota 4WD and stick them on the back. Not sure it is worth it, but the kits are readily available.

The problem with the add-on duals is not weight. It is the huge off-set that puts a uneven stress on one side of the single wheel-bearing.  No cost-effective way to add another bearing other then the FF kit I already mentioned.  Note - again - the semi-floater like you have is used all over the world with nearly a 7000 lb. GVWR and single wheels. Obviously the single-bearing and 1.5" OD axle size is not a safety issue. It is only here in the US and I assume Canada where the SF is considered somehow "dangerous."

[zero]

Here is one example of the FF conversion kit.

[zero]

Here are some specs from Toyota Hilux trucks all over the rest of the world. Our RVs are built on Hilux trucks.  Even the 2016 HD trucks still have the 5 lug, semi-floating rear.