Not starting

[RVdaytrader]

You could always try an aftermarket distributor to see if thats the problem...for 46 bucks

 

http://www.speedyracer.com/index.php?route=product/product&product_id=1004003&gclid=COyQ9Jbsz8wCFYqPfgodtxUHpg

[jjrbus]

While I have everybodys attention,  I keep seeing reference to Check Engine Light,    I do not see one on the dash,  should I have one?    93 Toyota, V6 auto, the instrument cluster is the one without a tach.

$46, I like the way you think!      Jim

[zero]

5 hours ago, jjrbus said:

This new forum software does some weird things.  Now it has me in a quote box.  Oh well.  $46 is bargain. I'd grab it as long as it's not a trick and shipping is $75 .

[jjrbus]

I ordered the $46 distributor with "Free" shipping!      Thanks Jim

[jjrbus]

Still sitting in the driveway.   Someone suggested rebooting the computer by unhooking the battery.  The price was right so gave that a try and nothing, nada, zip.

Speaking of the ECM, why is no one mentioning that in the diagnostics?    I pulled the ECM and checked the connections for corrosion, they are very clean, but will spray with contact cleaner justin case.   

While I have this unhooked, This likely supplies power to the check engine light, can I apply voltage to the proper pin and see if it lights up to check?   

In my internet wanderings I read where a faulty efi relay could cause my symptoms so am looking on how to test that at the moment.     Jim

[zero]

33 minutes ago, jjrbus said:

 

Speaking of the ECM, why is no one mentioning that in the diagnostics?      Jim

I DID mention it.  I said, and I repeat that I think Toyota has a redundant backup in the ECM to prevent complete ignition failure. Not 100% sure though.

[zero]

21 minutes ago, jjrbus said:

 

in my internet wanderings I read where a faulty efi relay could cause my symptoms so am looking on how to test that at the moment.     Jim

I don't see how the EFI relay has anything to do with the ignition system.  The main computer, yes.

[zero]

Seems to me it goes like this.  You checked the coil, checked the control module, checked for power at the coil.   You also checked resistance at the pick-up coil and also know the wheel that triggers it is turning.
There is nothing left except a couple of undefined gizmos inside the distributor, and the computer.

[zero]

I'll add that since you did a test for a trigger signal at the coil with an analog meter and got nothing, and you are pretty sure the pickup-coil is good - seems the problem may indeed be the computer.  If so, I am a little disgusted with Toyota.  Most computer-controlled ignition systems have a backup feature so if it fails, the engine still runs although not very well.

[jjrbus]

32 minutes ago, jdemaris said:

I DID mention it.  I said, and I repeat that I think Toyota has a redundant backup in the ECM to prevent complete ignition failure. Not 100% sure though.

Yes you did, I misplaced that bit of information.   Jim  

[jjrbus]

Becoming more confused as I go on, I started to suspect something.  Some of the checks mention computer safe test lights and other tests beyond my paygrade.  So I pulled the EFI relay and it says Toyota 12V on it.  So I do not have to worry about exotic materials and fiber optics and such, plus I have the computer out and do not have to worry about damaging that.

I applied 12V to the relay and heard a click, should be ok? So I put a test light on it no light?   I tried a volt meter and no voltage going out.   IS this my problem? Or does the relay somehow put out a voltage too small to read?      

                                                                                   Jim

[Maineah]

Try this http://www.yotatech.com/f2/no-start-condition-ignition-coil-test-info-3vze-89-95-a-10543/

[jjrbus]

Thanks, I was able to get a replacement coil and igniter, it would not start  with the new ones!

I decided to try an Ohms test on the EFI relay,  with or without voltage applied the relay shows no resistance on the output side.  Not 100% sure but strong suspicion this is an issue. 

[Derek up North]

I'd rummage around under the hood and find another relay from some non-engine related circuit and try it out in place of your EFI relay. But I'm only assuming there'll be one.

[jjrbus]

I was able to get a returnable relay from Advance Auto.  Tried it and again nothing, still not starting.

I seem to be at the limits of my pay grade on this and looks like I need to try and find a good diagnostician.

Recap,  

No Start, no spark

12V at coil with key on

Ohm test on coil and distributor and wires, all within specks.

Borrowed new coil and ignitor, did not help so returned

Used new EFI relay for test and returned.  Looked at and cleaned most connections. 

Any other thoughts?      Jim                                                  

[zero]

Did you test the power input to the computer that comes from the EFI relay that you had some suspicion of?  Terminal B has to be hot when key is on and B+ also has to be hot.

[zero]

Do you have a Toyota service manual?  I don't, but somewhere in there if you have one is info on how to test your  "IGT signal from the ECM."  This is what tells the igntiter when to trigger the coil and make it spark.  You already tested for trigger voltage at the coil and got none, correct?  You also tried a new ignitorr (ignition module).  Now you need to verify the ignitor is getting the 1 volt (approx) trigger signal from the ECM.  Pain in the a*s to check?   Yes, the whole system is a pain in the a*s.

[jjrbus]

Thanks for the responses!

I was able to get a returnable EFI relay and still no start, so returned relay.

Being curious I took the instrument cluster out and checked the malfunction indicator/check engine bulb,  tests good.

Batt, +B and +B1 All show power with key on,  Batt shows power with key off.

I have access to the FSM online, need to down load it to the computer some day.  Will take a look at the IGT  signal and report back.  What I might do is go back to the parts store and see if I can get a returnable ICM.           

                                                                           Jim

 

[jjrbus]

Check engine indicator is suppose to be checkable by grounding lavender wire at ECM with ignition on, I tried, still will not light.

Yota forum claims that my multi meter is not quick enough to test IGT.

I cannot get a returnable ECM, Cost locally is almost $300 and takes 10 days to get.   Jim

[payaso del mar]

nobody parting a V6 on CL in your area?  I see a lot of em that get parted around here when the 3.0 head gaskets go, and the parts in Q aren't likely to be unique to the truck.

[jjrbus]

This is all starting to make my head hurt  The only thing being parted locally is a 95 Tacoma.  According to the internet its ECM is 89661 04050   Mine is 89661 55760,  my last 5 numbers may not be right, hard to read.    At the parts houses the ECM for dual rear wheels has a different part number.  Don't know enough to know why or if they are interchangeable?  But doubt they would show different one for different application if it was not important.

For all the lurkers out there or someone that may come along with the same problem. I have been scouring the internet for info as all this is above my pay grade.  Trying to decipher what seems simple to the people who wrote it or someone who has done it before is difficult at best. I came across this video which for me makes it easy to understand.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VG3EZJlyjl8

                                                                                  Hope this helps someone.     Jim

[payaso del mar]

damn I love youtube.  when I first heard about it, I envisioned nothing but ego addled fools wasting your time.  plenty of that, but it seems to have become one of the best how-to sites on the web.  along with Wikipedia, one of the few sites that fulfills the promise of the internet as a free flowing stream of info empowering Joe and Jane Average, rather than the fetid swamp of commerce and stupidity it mostly is....

sorry this is giving you so much poop.  here's an out of left field idea or 2: 

1.  maybe post an ad on local CL setting forth issue and asking if someone would let you swap in their ECM etc for a minute to test for spark?  there has to be a USMC alumnus with a Toytruck who'd help a fellow Marine.  maybe buy em lunch or something to sweeten the deal.  for this purpose, it wouldn't matter if it was precisely the right ECM, as I suspect any roughly-similar-year 3.0 ECM would let you check spark....doesn't matter if the advance curves, injection settings, etc are correct for your specific model. once you know what part it is, you can spend the $ and get the specific one for your chassis.

2.  most communities have at least one guy who's a Toy 4x4 fanatic, knows the 80s models better than the factory at this point, and builds rock crawlers*.  he often won't have an ad for parting specific vehicles but often will have a big stash of parts, particularly from 80s Toys since those are more popular with the 4x4 crowd (due to ease of solid front axle conversion, I suspect).  I;ve gotten a lot of stuff from the local guy like this.  find him via local CL, yellow pages etc, or on local 4WD forums.

*having lived in FL for 11 years, I realize that there aren't many rocks to crawl......

Edited May 12, 2016 by payaso del mar

[Maineah]

The ECU is not some thing you want to swap around you run a risk of killing it or a false positive or if it does start not much else will work properly it needs to be exactly the same.

[Derek up North]

Rather than risking turning a friend into an ex-friend by maybe damaging his ECU, maybe try installing yours in his vehicle. ?

[jjrbus]

While I have everyone's attention.  Ordering an ECM for my Toy locally I am being told $300 and 7 to 10 days for delivery from the parts stores.

I see an ad on Ebay for rebuilding mine with fast turn around.   Any opinions on this or other options?   Jim

http://www.ebay.com/itm/171898421351?_trksid=p2055119.m1438.l2649&ssPageName=STRK%3AMEBIDX%3AIT

They have been on Ebay since 2013 with 98.0% positive feed backs on 126 reviews. 

[payaso del mar]

4 hours ago, Maineah said:

if it does start not much else will work properly it needs to be exactly the same.

I guess I wasn't clear.  I was trying to say that just to test spark, not much else needs to work properly.  compatibility might be broader than you realize: look at the long list of 836 vehicles that ECM Jim linked to is claimed to fit....from '05 1.8L Celicas to '08 $runners with the 5.7 V8.

Jim, I read the feedback and they look decent.  the only negative was a guy who didn't understand they might not be able to fix it and who apparently got his $ back anyway.  sounds like you have little to lose IF YOU'VE NARROWED IT DOWN TO THE ECM.  I really would check everything else first simply because it's usually the parts that live in the hot/wet/dirty engine bay that die first, rather than the ECM that lives in your nice cab.

 

[linda s]

The model number of your ECM is 89661-35760. It is only for the WT chassis meaning the dual wheel truck. I'm wondering where you found one to order. It's been discontinued and I can't find a single one for sale in America. Even the rebuild places are asking more than 300 bucks to repair it. I really hope that's not your problem. Sometimes in situations like this it's actually cheaper to take it to a mechanic. Find the real problem before you start throwing money away

Linda S

[zero]

23 hours ago, jjrbus said:

Check engine indicator is suppose to be checkable by grounding lavender wire at ECM with ignition on, I tried, still will not light.

Yota forum claims that my multi meter is not quick enough to test IGT.

I cannot get a returnable ECM, Cost locally is almost $300 and takes 10 days to get.   Jim

Many people on the Yota forum are full-of-hot-air.  Not so easy to weed out the good posts from the bad ones.  An analog meter can read the IGT signal just fine. So can many high-end digital meters with fast response-times. NOT a Harbor Freight meter that cost $3.   They can hardly read voltage on a turn-signal circuit.   As to Linda's comments about going to a mechanic to save time and money?  Good idea in a ideal world. Not uniformly true in the world as it exists. In fact, unless you are lucky enough to find  a  Toyota mechanic that knows a system well of the vintage you have - you could of been out a lot of money by now and had nothing to show for it.   That's how I wound up getting my Datsun Minicruiser so cheap.  Owner took it to a so-called "old Datsun/Nissan" expert and all it got him was a $500 repair bill and a motorhome that still did not run.  When it comes to computers nowadays - seems few places stock them.  All they need is the correct test connections and software for what you have and they just fix your's.   That is unless they can pickup a core somewhere, fix that, and then sell you one outright. Same equipment is often used for programming DVD players (not done very often anymore).

[jjrbus]

Hard to call the first number in the second group a 3?

The Toyota guys are saying double check every thing twice as the ECM's rarely are the problem. 

I bought a LED computer safe logic prob from Harbor Freight and will be trying to see if the ECU is sending a pulse to the ignitor.  

 

 

[jjrbus]

I hate to sound like one of those crotchety old poop's but finding someone that knows what they are doing in Florida is very difficult.  It is every con artists, swindlers, scammers, crooks dream to move to Florida and fleece the old people.  Ripley would not believe it.  

I have been lucky and found a couple good mechanics, fair, trustable, do good work, but they are not diagnosticians. I can't go ask them for a reference as they would be offended.

[zero]

I sold a used computer to one of the people on this forum when his Dolphin with a 22RE was running lousy.  Not dead-on-the-road; just running bad.  He said he just plugged in the computer I sent him and it fixed it.  That makes sense to me.   Having a computer and IGN system designed so badly that you have a non-running vehicle with one failure sounds strange to me.  Most or at least many makers have a backup system so in case of failure - keeps the engine running - but no longer monitors  certain essentials that give the best driveability and lowest emissions.

[zero]

I'm not trying to sell you a computer but . .  Rock Auto has your computer for $188 with your old one, or $223 outright with no exchange.   Cardone # 721366

[RVdaytrader]

Jim...this is the response from some so-called expert when asked about "no spark" on a 3vze....more for you to read!

 

Expert:  mastertech29 replied 4 years ago.

If no spark, check for power on positive terminal of ignition coil when ignition is on. If no power, either bad ignition switch, or maybe a blown fusible link or broken connection somewhere. This post has troubleshooting info for ignition switch power: 

I know you have already replaced these but it is part of trouble shooting a no spark problem.

If there is power to the coil, possibly bad coil, bad igniter, bad signal coil in the distributor, or bad connection from the signal coil to ecu or from ecu to igniter. To check the ignition coil, make sure ignition off & disconnect all wires to coil. Between positive & neg terminals of coil should be .4 to .5 ohms (that's right - about half an ohm). Between positive terminal and high tension terminal (where cable attach's) should be between 10,200 - 13,800 ohms (10.2k -13.8k ohms) COLD. Unfortunately it's possible for a coil to pass this test but still be bad. But it's not real common.

Check the resistance of all three signal coils in the distributor: they should all be 140-180 ohms cold. The green wire in the harness is the common (neg). Check for resistance between that and each of the others. (Of course, check on the wires that lead to the distributor.) Air gap between the signal rotor lobes and the signal coil projections should be .2 - .4 mm (0.008 - 0.016 in). Also try wiggling the distributor shaft side-to-side. There should be almost no movement. Check the distributor connector.

Try cleaning up the igniter ground (mounting bolts).

Does the check engine light come on when ignition is first turned on? If not, check for power on +B when ignition is on - that's your ecu power. If no, check EFI fuse on passenger inner fender, and IGN fuse in drivers kick. If the fuses are good and both are hot with ignition on, but no power on +B, then probably either bad EFI Main Relay or bad ignition switch. (If IGN fuse has no power when ignition on, then probably bad ignition switch (or connection to/from it); if IGN fuse has power, prob bad EFI main relay.)

[payaso del mar]

boy do I know what you mean on Fla as the home of the scammers.  when I lived there in the 70s, the places was still filled with the aftermath of the scams, get-rich-quick schemes, and failed dreams of the 60s.  particularly in the Melbourne area, lots of people figured the space boom was gonna last forever.....there was a huge subdiv on the mainland with streets but no houses ever got built....... great place to shoot, drag race, neck, underage-drink, whatever 

3 hours ago, jjrbus said:

The Toyota guys are saying double check every thing twice as the ECM's rarely are the problem. 

back to Ugly Reality....that deal from Rock sounds good.  but they are echoing what I said:  it's not usually the ECM, so eliminate everything else first.

[jjrbus]

I got my Handy Andy computer test light from HF and spent an hour trying to get a connection at the ECM plug.   I cannot do it, wires are too short.  Now I did note that the wire is black with a blue stripe, so would assume I could check it at the ingnitor?  Have to go back and read I think JD mentioned checking volts there? Wires into ignitor are pretty well sealed any good/easy way to access?   

While I was at it, I did a continuity test on the check engine light, I have continuity from the ECM to the light bulb.   Still will not light when grounded or when I turn key on?