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I have been starting and moving the Toy a bit in the driveway with no issues, so yesterday cleaned it out and was going to take it for a little shake down cruise today.

And of course it will not start.    Bearing in mind I am not a mechanic I have checked this over and believe it is electrical.  I checked for spark with my ancient spark tester and nothing, not knowing if it is compatible with modern motors I scurried over to Harbor Freight and bought a new inline ignition spark checker, which also shows no spark.  I checked this one on the lawn mower and it is working.

http://www.harborfreight.com/inline-ignition-spark-checker-69014.html

The battery is good and spinning the engine sufficiently to start.  I also tried a small amount of starting fluid.

I checked the fuses under the hood and all were good.  I looked at the contacts in the distributor and see no issues. Fiddled with the wires to make sure everything is tight.

I read on the internet to jump the TE1 and E1 and count the flashes on the check engine light.  I have the dash pod without the tach but can see no check engine light?  I checked the manual and it does not show a check engine light.  I jumped TE1 and E1 with the ignition on and see no flashing lights anywhere.

93 Toyota 3VZE,       Whats next?                   Jim

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Having tried to start this several times I decided to put battery charger on. Checked voltage and it is 11.7 volts according to multi meter.

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All you need to check spark is an old spark plug with the ground electrode broken off or opened way up to a 1/4".  Just hook it to a plug wire, lay against a ground source, and crank.

If no spark - I'd first check voltage on the positive terminal of the coil with the key on "on."  If it has 12 volts, I'd then suspect either the pickup coil inside the distributor, or the ignition control module.  As I recall, there is an easy test procedure the pickup coil in the four-cylinder engine but NONE for the V6.  For the V6 - Toyota uses the "remove and replace and hope it works" method.

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Thanks for the quick response.   First I had to look up coil on internet so I know what to look for.   The black and red wire shows 12.4 volts with the ignition on.

Your suspicions are good enough for me, I will start with the cheapest part and keep throwing till it starts!     Jim

 

IMG_0679.JPG

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Probably the cheapest part to "remove and replace" is the coil.  They DO go bad now and then, but THAT you can check with an ohm-meter.   I just had a coil go bad on my 2001 Dodge van.  I did not even know it had three coils until it started running on 4 cylinders instead of 6.  I then found out there is one coil for every two cylinders and in this case - it WAS as simple as a bad coil.   Last I checked, NO parts inside the distributor are normally available for the Toyota 3 liter V6. Again, for the 4 cylinder - they are.  Seems like Toyota made some parts-availability changes when that V6 came out. I WILL say this.  Datsuns in the 80s were known for ignition failures and with them - it was the ignition module.  Many failed and with Dastun - it was mounted inside the distributor where it got hot.  Toyota has its module mounted outside the distributor so it runs cooler and I have not heard much about them failing.  At $160 each, not something you just want to buy to try.

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Well no one seems to know what a pickup coil inside the distributor on the 3VZE is? A friend came over and we got a coil and ignition control module that we could return if the were not the issue.   They were not the issue so returned them.

It would seem now I have to figure out if the coil is sending spark to the distributor? 

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I found the service manual online again and checked the coil with a meter. I own a meter but not trained in its use.   Primary calls for 0.45-0.660  hot mine is 0.7

Secondary calls for 11.4-18.1K   hot,  mine is 12.66   this is on a 20K scale if that makes any difference.  This seems to confirm the coil is good.

The high tension cord reads 0.57 but I do not see a spec for that yet?

Not sure on how to test spark from coil without getting electrocuted, but searching the web for an answer.        Jim

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Put the transmission in drive turn the key to start it should light all the warning lights. The V6 had a pretty bullet proof ign system check the distributor and make sure it is turning with the engine it could have a broken timing belt.

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It is connected. I read on the internet to test it disconnect it and if it was the problem the vehicle would start but not run long, tried that did not start.Thanks Jim

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sorry, I seem to have missed the start of this party.

no point worrying about fuel pressure til you get spark.  the fuel lines will be pressurized at 35ish psi even when engine is stopped, so checking to see IF you have fuel to the injectors is easy:  loosen clamp and wrap a rag around where the fuel line connects to the hard lines and gently start to remove the fuel line (but don't pull it all the way),,,,you'll get significant gas on the rag if you have fuel to the fuel rail.

to test coil output without electrocution, tape the insulation of the coil high tension wire to a DRY wood dowel with electrical tape, then use that arrangement to hold end of wire near a grounded point....maybe 1/16" and see if you have spark jumping.

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I've been zapped many a times holding a wire to test spark. No electrocution yet.  Brain damage . . . maybe.    To test spark, more then 1/16" is needed for a proper test.  It takes higher voltage to make a spark inside a compression chamber then out in open-air.  Subsequently you get a false reading unless you at least double the normal spark gap.  Any automotive ignition system can jump a 1/4" gap with a bright blue spark.   In fact, in only takes around 20,000 volts to do that and modern cars and trucks can make over 40,000 volts when needed.   

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I've actually known of people getting injured while testing spark....but it wasn't from the electricity, it was from whatever they ran into or slammed their elbow against when the wire zapped em and they jumped! 

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When I worked in a magneto shop, a common trick was to charge up a capacitor and sneak up behind someone and touch their neck with with it. It would often send a person jumping.  Same spark as from our Toyotas.  I wonder what would happen if a person had a pacemaker?

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12 hours ago, jjrbus said:

No idea if I have fuel pressure or not and not sure how I would check, I know I do not have spark.   Thanks  Jim

Did you ever check the pick-up coil yet like I mentioned earlier?   Many failed on 3 liter V6s and 2.4 fours.   On the 22RE you can buy a new one as a separate part.  With the V6,  I have yet to see anyone sellilng just the pickup.  Just the entire distributor.  Read this. It gives the resistance specs on your pickup coil.   

http://ww2.justanswer.com/uploads/tyroneboman/2011-11-14_185546_1992_4_runner.pdf

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37 minutes ago, jdemaris said:

It would often send a person jumping.

i'd be scared to meet the person who DIDN'T jump when they got zapped with that much voltage.......:o

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I have a recollection of a big jolt a long time ago and do not want to repete. I have enough drain bamage from sucking diesel fumes for decades, don't need anymore!  Plus seems I have heard/read about damaging coil if not done right?

So I tape the coil wire to a plastic stick and get a rubber glove, have the wife turn the key and nothing, nada, zilch.   What The??  battery completely dead,   I think the neighbor that hides my pencils and rulers snuck over and turned my ignition on last night. 

I have not checked anything else, I was waiting to test if spark is going from the coil to distributor before proceeding.   Thanks for the information, everything helps.

I am glad this happened in the driveway and not on the road somewhere.  Will check in morning when battery is charged and report back.

Thanks for all the responses and info,   greatly appreciated.       Jim

 

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1 hour ago, jdemaris said:

Did you ever check the pick-up coil yet like I mentioned earlier?   Many failed on 3 liter V6s and 2.4 fours.   On the 22RE you can buy a new one as a separate part.  With the V6,  I have yet to see anyone sellilng just the pickup.  Just the entire distributor.  Read this. It gives the resistance specs on your pickup coil.   

http://ww2.justanswer.com/uploads/tyroneboman/2011-11-14_185546_1992_4_runner.pdf

On my pickup coil it says "do not remove"    have not checked it yet, but maybe tomorrow.     Thanks Jim

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I do not have spark from the coil.   I rechecked everything, there is 12V to the coil,  the coil wire Ohms 0.57 on the 20K scale, I moved the coil wire around checking for break as I ohm'ed.  The coil primary and secondary show proper ohms, the coil pickup shows

G1 & G   156 ,  G2 & G  157,  NE & G 197  all on the 2000 scale.          Jim      

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Sounds like the coil is not getting a trigger signal to fire.  That's what the pickup coil does inside the distributor.  A simple resistance check should tell you if it failed or not.

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I checked the Ohms on the pickup coil and they seem to be right?

G1 & G   156 ,  G2 & G  157,  NE & G 197  all on the 2000 scale

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Be glad you are home doing the work and not having some goon trying to fix it at a "repair shop" with the "replace and see what happens" method.  I bought a 1983 Datusn RV a few years ago with the sort of issues.  The owner paid to have it towed to a shop.  They put in two new coils, and a new fuel pump and it still did not run and he was CHARGED for that.  That's how I wound up with it. In this case, it was the ignition control module inside the distributor.  At one time, like your Toyota pickup coil, it was not available as a separate part. Now it is and I fixed it without replacing the distributor.   With your Toyota, I see nobody selling a pickup coil; just a rebuilt distributor.

About the danger of coil damage with a test.  Yes, that happens with super high voltage ignition systems. I burned out the CDI module twice on my boat by testing "wrong."  Not the case though with your "normal" voltage Toyota.

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3 minutes ago, jjrbus said:

I checked the Ohms on the pickup coil and they seem to be right?

G1 & G   156 ,  G2 & G  157,  NE & G 197  all on the 2000 scale

Hmmm.  Where exactly did you check for spark? I.e. directly at the coil output terminal, for at a spark-plug output terminal on the distributor cap?

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You've done more meaningful test work that many shops would of done (that's a compliment).   Just repeat please - what new parts, out-of-the-box, have you already tried?  I'm just trying to narrow things down in my head. I also glad you have the problem and not me.  I wanted to kill that Datsun when I had it, but then forgave it once I figured out the problem. I would of fixed it faster had I NOT taking advice from a self-proclaimed Nissan/Datsun expert.

That coil, if getting 12 volts positive, only needs a NEG trigger signal to make a spark. Easy to simulate with a test lead.  Seems - IF the coil is known to be good, and you have tested spark directly at the coil secondary terminal, and you know the distributor it turning - then the issue has to be in the trigger system (what used to be done with ignition points).   That includes the pickup-coil inside the distributor, the wheel that rotates next to it, and the ignition control module. I don't think the main computer can fail and leave you with no spark.  I think (not sure) it has a default backup mode to keep you going if the main IGN system fails.

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Thanks for the compliment, I can use all I can get!

I was able to use a coil and ignitor to test my system,  They did not help so returned them, other than that nothing new. 

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In theory (I have no official specs on this test) - you ought to be able to hook an ohm-meter between chassis ground and the NEG side of your coil circuit and then crank the engine over.  You should see the needle bounce back and forth (if a analog tester). If a cheap digital ??  Some cheap ones do not read fast enough to show you a intermittent signal.  My point is, IF the trigger system is working, when the engine is cranking, the NEG side of the coil primary will be getting NEG current, off and on, as the engine rotates.

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Analog meter is old and cheap, I tested it on battery and it is working.

I hooked it up to neg side of coil plug and did a couple test 's and it shows nothing, no needle movement at all?

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Sounds like you have no trigger signal.   Occam's Razor type of thinking would have me blame the distributor since it gets hot and has moving parts. Just a guess.  It would be nice if you were allowed to plug in a new one and see if you get spark.  You probably don't even have to install it. Just lay it against the engine, hook up the wire-harness,and turn it by hand so check for spark.  Rock Auto has them brand new for $140 (no exchange of your old one). Pretty good deal.  If I owned your rig, I'd buy it and even if not needed, have it for a spare.

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Your my expert, if that is what you would do I will give it a shot!    I also checked the air gap on the coil pick up it is  .011,  book shows between .008 and .200.  I will poke around the net a bit more before ordering distributor. 

Thanks for your time and input, greatly appreciated.     Jim

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