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So much for buying American !!


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I just had two bad "buying new American" stuff in a row.  Keep in mind, I rarely, ever, buy anything new.  All my cars, trucks, RVs, tractors, trailers, etc. are old.  But we moved last year and either left a lot of equipment behind in NY, or sold it.  So now - here in northern Michigan, I bought a few new pieces as "replacements." 

#1 I got a brand new "Big Tex" dump-trailer. Made in Texas with name-brand USA Dexter axles.

#2 I got a new log splitter from Tractor Supply with an American Kohler engine instead of a Honda (or Chinese clone).

So, first - I use the trailer for the first time. I got 22 miles with it and one axle went up in smoke. I mean HD smoke.  Kind of amazing but there was so much blue smoke I thought my diesel engine in my truck had blown.  So I had to take the wheels off both sides of the braking axle and cut the wires to the brake-magnets. Brakes were on fire on one side.  Guess what?  The axle was assembled at the Dexter factory with NO bearing races at all. It was assembled with the bearing cones, but no races ever got pressed in. How the heck does anyone, anywhere make a mistake like that?  The axles were made in Elkhart, Indiana - home of many RV companies.  So now - I am stuck with no trailer and waiting for warranty parts.  

So that is bad enough.  Today - I needed a 2nd log splitter since my big one is tractor mounted and 40 miles from where I am staying right now. I went to tractor supply and got a new splitter with an American-branded Kohler engine on it. Kohler used to be one of the best US small engines made.  Well right off the bat we had problems.  Nobody there could figure out which way was "on" and which way was "off" for either the choke or the fuel.  Just had an "I" and "0."  So many arguments over it began and some guys pulled it near 50 times one way, another guy 50 times another, etc,  No start.  Then I read the manual and IT says to turn "ON" to start.  Hmmm.  Seems Kohler has not even looked at their own engines and noticed there is no "ON?"  Finally the guys at the store (three of them) gave up and decided to give me another unit. Well - no start with that one either.   I noticed they had some higher priced splitters with Honda engines.  I told the guy I'd bet the Honda was start with two pulls.  So I went over and at least the Honda had "ON" and "OFF"  But to be fair - IT would not start either.  Then the manager came out and said it was too cold today to start them.   Hey - it is 44 degrees F.  If THAT is too cold, what happens when winter comes?  Then the manager said the gas was a month old and THAT must be the problem. OH, come on!   Ends up - the manager gave up and said if I don't want it - just come in the store and get a refund because he wasn't pulling the rope anymore.  Then when I was all alone - I pulled it once with the gas in "I" and choke in "0" and it started right up.  So after an hour of screwing with it - I  brought it home.  I'm letting it run all afternoon to "break in" and will then put in some new gas and see how it does.  GEEZ.  What the heck country am I living in when an American engine maker cannot put "ON'" and "OFF" on the gas and "OPEN" and "CLOSE" on the choke?  Even my Chinese Harbor Freight engine has much better labeling. It starts a LOT better too.  

I think next time I need something - I am going Chinese if possible.

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Welcome to the "1's and "0" of the computer world. It's hard to beat a $99 5 HP engine.

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Yes, I discovered that those symbols were numbers 0 and 1 after getting home and looking it up.  Not letters O and I.  Who had the bright idea to use binary code numbers on power equipment?  I could understand if this was a computer.  I bet there were 20 different people at the Tractor Supply store trying to figure it out and nobody knew that was binary code. It gets NO mention in the Kohler service manual for this engine supposedly built in the USA.  Service manual says "ON" of "OFF" and does not offer any binary symbols.

Kind of reminds me of when our dealership took on West German chainsaws in the late 60s. Stihl and Dolmar.  They had no "ON" or "OFF" either.  They came with "+" and "-" or "EIN."  But at they were from Europe.

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It's pretty much for international coding IEC 5007 (on off ) and IEC 5008 (power switch, upside down "C" with a line in the middle). 

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Like I said - if 20 different people, customers and staff at the Tractor Supply store could not figure it out - seems there is a serious communication problem with the symbols.  I bet every person there could comprehend "ON" and "OFF."  I've worked with computers since they were invented (to be small enough for personal ownership). That being said - the symbols looked to me like letters, not numbers and I truly never suspected international binary code symbols on an American-made log-splitter with an engine made in Mississippi.  ESPECIALLY since there is no consistency.  The ignition switch is clearly marked "ON" and "OFF."  Choke  and fuel are marked "O" and "I."   Like I said, they do not look like numbers; more like letters. Ends up for the gas - "I" is gas-valve open and "O" is for gas-valve closed.  For the choke - "O" is for choke open and "I" is for choke closed. Is that supposed to be intuitive to the average outdoor equipment user?  I just bought a new professional chainsaw from Italy (yeah, sounds like an oxy-moron).  So right from Italy and at least the ignition switch has "Stop" and a circle with a line through it.  So the Italians can figure out how to their point across, but not Kohler?

I know I am ranting but sometimes I feel like my brain is going to blow up. It is bad enough using brain energy to figure out important things. But for "ON" and "OFF?"

We home-school our last kid and my wife and I are both co-op teachers.  I just got done coaching a  Science Olympiad event (we won).  Talk about me catching crap from the authorities and the many public school teachers involved?  That because I refused to think and talk in Metric so all our data was expressed in dual format.  I.e.  PSIA. PSIG, and KPa, Inches and cms, pounds, and Kgs, etc.  I got in an argument with a judge and he claimed that the USA is "all metric" and I better "get with it."  I then asked him how many speed limit signs has he seen recently that were NOT in MPH?  Or gas at the pump NOT in gallons?  Or highways with measure Kms instead of miles?   Or land in hectares instead of acres?  He got very sour about my comments, but we won anyway.  

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It's been a number of years since 'HP' disappeared from our snowblowers and lawnmowers to be replaced by 'cc' and torque. Doesn't help me if I'm looking for an engine for my 8HP blower or 3.5HP mower!!

Here's our version of Harbor Freight.

http://www.princessauto.com/en/b/driveline/driveline/power-equipment/engines/engines/N-syhaor

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15 minutes ago, Derek up North said:

It's been a number of years since 'HP' disappeared from our snowblowers and lawnmowers to be replaced by 'cc' and torque. Doesn't help me if I'm looking for an engine for my 8HP blower or 3.5HP mower!!

Here's our version of Harbor Freight.

http://www.princessauto.com/en/b/driveline/driveline/power-equipment/engines/engines/N-syhaor

There was a huge class-action law-suit against near all the small-engine makers like Briggs & Stratton, Kohler, the now defunct Tecumseh, etc. All for misrepresenting horsepower figures - kind of like car makers did up until 1973. I got paid for it.  I think I got a check in the mail for $75 or something like that. My new crappy Kohler Courage 196 cc engine has horsepower posted on it again.  Says 6.5 horsepower (not torque).

Small engines as well as engines used hard in trucks and tractors used to get ratings based on horsepower versus a time-frame.  Like "continuous HP", or HP for 30 mintues", etc. Kind of rare in the consumer market.  In the 50s-60s, small engines were usually around 1 horsepower per 47 ccs.  Using that formula, my new Kohler ought to be rated at 4.1 horsepower instead of 6.5, so they are still playing games. If that same engine was sold in the HD market, it would likely be sold as a 4 horse engine.

I have a brand-new Subaru single-cylinder engine here made for HD use. 251 ccs and only rated at 6.4 horsepower for continuous use. Also rated  8.4 horsepower for momentary max power.  Obviously Subaru is more honest than Kohler with their 196 cc engine rated at 6.5 horsepower.

Lawsuit involved: Yard-Man, Cub Cadet, Honda, Bolens, Exmark, Deere, Sabre, Scotts, Toro, Yard Machines, Craftsman, Troy Bilt, Husqvarna, Poulan, Poulan PRO, Lawn-Boy, Weed Eater, White Outdoor, Snapper, Simplicity, Brute, and Murray. The suit also covers "numerous other brands" with engines manufactured by Briggs & Stratton, Tecumseh, Kawasaki, Honda and Kohler.

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The choke markings are not open/closed, but on/off

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6 hours ago, jdemaris said:

That because I refused to think and talk in Metric so all our data was expressed in dual format.  I.e.  PSIA. PSIG, and KPa, Inches and cms, pounds, and Kgs, etc.  I got in an argument with a judge and he claimed that the USA is "all metric" and I better "get with it."  I then asked him how many speed limit signs has he seen recently that were NOT in MPH?  Or gas at the pump NOT in gallons?  Or highways with measure Kms instead of miles?   Or land in hectares instead of acres?

porque the metric system angst?  you don't strike me as having "Not Invented Here syndrome".  the metric system has only been around since 1795*, and there's a certain amount of logic in a system that bases the unit of length on the size of the planet (subject to issues of ellipsoids) and units of mass and volume on the density of water.  IT seems unrealistic in a world of global commerce to not be conversant in both, since the rest of the world uses metric.  Especially if one buys a lot of Chinese stuff (cough, cough....)........seen any 1/4" bolts lately on the stuff you buy, or are they all 6mm?  And then there;s the issue that at a SCIENCE fair, it might make sense to work and think in the units that essentially all scientists, worldwide, use.  I haven't seen 27/64 or 13/16 in a chemical reaction equation, ever.......

interestingly, I find that very few people are comfortable "thinking" and visualizing in both.  virtually no one knows the conversion factors I had to learn back in high school**.  I even read one case where the appellate court found an "affirmative link" to the dope (required to prove possession by any given individual in a joint-possession case) based on fact that the guy had a working knowledge of metric system conversions!

the old HAynes manuals had a wonderful conversion chart that showed the size in thousandths of an inch for each wrench size, metric, SAE, and even Whitworth.  I copied it and pasted a copy inside toolbox, and often refer to it when I need an in-between size.  I figure if I ever need a super tight fitting wrench to bust something loose, I might get next size down and grind slightly.

+courtesy of the folks Americans like to diss, without whose assistance we might still all be British subjects.....

** I suspect that, given how scary-sharp you are, you are perfectly comfortable with it and are just taking that position to Do The Curmudgeon Role ;)  not that this isn't a reasonable response to a world of dolts...have you seen Idiocracy?

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I have no problem converting or expressing in metric.  Problem is - I was schooled in non-metric. If someone says a gallon, a foot, a mile, an acre, cubic inches, pounds per square inch absolute or gauge,  or a 7/16" open-end wrench, I can instantly visualize it. When something is expressed only in metric - I have to think before I can visualize.   Sometimes not too hard and sometimes VERY hard. I just got a fuel-injector tester from China and there is NO PSIG anywhere on it. Just kPa. I wound up taking a Sharpie and writing the PSIG equiv. numbers on it myself.  And the tool mess?  As I recall Ford Motor Company was the first to sell cars with a mix of SAE and Metric hardware with the Pinto and they color-coded all the bolts. One color for SAE and another for metric.  It was supposed to take only a few years and all would be metric. Now - 45 years later and new cars and trucks STILL have a mix of hardware.  Hey, at least there no longer three standards and I no longer use my Whitworth wrenches.  So yeah, I know the metric system is "sensible."  So are a lot of things we don't eat, use, or admire. Since when has the USA been about being sensible?  We started out as traitors to the King and revolted in a cause that made no logical sense to fight (yet we won somehow). We drive cars that have never made any sense on a utilitarian basis and live in communities that pretty much force us to have them.  Etc.  &c.     

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55 minutes ago, Maineah said:

As far as metric is concerned in the US is it ignorance or arrogance?

I think you present a false dichotomy.  What about using our present system because it is part of our culture?  

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So what exactly constitutes "American" these days?  The likely problem with your trailer wasn't the guys that built it but rather the sourcing of the bearings for the axle or even more likely an axle assembly as more likely to be the case.  When it comes to bearings there is a broad range of quality out there.  The worst I've ever run into was Italian machinery with Russian bearings. 

Just about anything you purchase these days is going to contain parts sourced from all over and just because it says American made, doesn't have to mean every part of it.

Quality these days is a function of price & profit pressures that drives manufacturers.  Global sourcing is not likely to change anytime soon.

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10 hours ago, Back East Don said:

So what exactly constitutes "American" these days?  The likely problem with your trailer wasn't the guys that built it but rather the sourcing of the bearings for the axle or even more likely an axle assembly as more likely to be the case.  When it comes to bearings there is a broad range of quality out there.  The worst I've ever run into was Italian machinery with Russian bearings. 

Just about anything you purchase these days is kgoing to contain parts sourced from all over and just because it says American made, doesn't have to mean every part of it.

Quality these days is a function of price & profit pressures that drives manufacturers.  Global sourcing is not likely to change anytime soon.

The problem had nothing to do with bearing quality.  As I already stated - the bearing races were never put in, at all.  Axle was improperly assembled at the Dexter Axle factory in Elkhart, Indiana. I regard that as America.   And for context, when I talk about "America" and American culture - I am referring to a country with citizens that call themselves Americans - unlike other parts of "America" like Mexico, Canada, Cuba, El Salvador, Guatemala, Panama, etc.   

When we called the Dexter factory - they wanted the code #s off the axle and were then able to ascertain the exact person responsible for the screw up.  What happens to him or her, I don't know? If it was a government job - they'd get a raise.

Again - to make it clear - the wheel hub is supposed to have two bearing races and then two bearing cones ride in it, mounted on the spindle. Just like on the front of our Toyotas and also the back IF a full-floater.  At the Elkhart, Indiana factory - someone put two wheel hubs on there that had no bearing races pressed in at all.  Yet they  greased the bearing cones and stuck them in and then turned the adjuster nut and I guess - thought all was OK?

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I just wonder why the US is one of the very few countries that still use fractions that have to be converted to decimal in order to machine parts while the rest of the world doesn’t. Why is a mile 5280 feet instead of a kilometer why is a foot 12"? I know where all of this came from but the colonists won the war. Many years back there was an effort to switch the US to metric measure it failed miserably because the Americans were too resistant to change.

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The effort to switch to metric had no consensus and was half-baked.  Not much different then trying to make school kids like soccer instead of football.  Are we going to drop baseball next and switch to cricket?

I don't understand the problem with having a unique culture.  Much of it is from "old England" that we kept, and England somewhat discarded after the revolution. Our US gallons were once Queen Anne gallons and is what England was using until after the USA  or 13 united colonies came to exist. Then England switched to their "Imperial" gallon.  Much of US law today is still based on old English Common Law. If a system works and lets us think our culture is a little unique - what is wrong with that?

Do I enjoy reading some of my old property deeds and seeing distances in links, chains,and rods?  Yeah, it is kind of fun and a reminder of our heritage.  Do I also like inches, feet, acres, and miles? Yes again. It is part of our culture and works fine.  Do I feel the need to now revert to what many (not all) Europeans use? Heck no.  I don't want my Milky Way candy bars or coffee cups half-sized either (like in much of Europe).  My grandparents left Ireland and France to adopt the USA version of American culture and I hate to see it go.

So here is my el-cheapo Harbor Freight engine from China for $99. Note it is clearly marked with choke having  "CHOKE" and "RUN."  Also has the fuel valve marked "OFF" and "ON."  So I get something easily understandable on a cheap engine from China.  But a USA name-brand Kohler cannot figure out how to communicate?  A $265 engine with less ccs and a lack of use of the English language. Not great incentive to "buy American."  I will also note that the Kohler did not even bother to use letter characters that even look like a "0" and "1", but chose characters that look like "O" and "I."  

both.jpg

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Despite the difficulties I will continue to try and buy American. I had been through about 50 brass grill brushes.  Now there is an American product, my Weber Baby Q grill has stood up to 17 years of hard use and never replaced a part! It is old so has ON Start and off.

Back to the grill brush, the Weber specifies brass brush, so I would buy these Chinese things and they were getting worse and worse, the expensive ones from the big box stores were no better than the $2 ones from the flea mkt.  So I looked around and found a Tuff Built grill brush made in USA and well worth the twenty some dollars I paid for it! No switch on it so no chance of aggravation there.

Many American products though more expensive are cheaper in the long run!

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When 20 people from different walks of life look at it and remain unsure  - then there is, for sure, a source of confusion. Store workers, store manager, several local loggers and farmers, and me (with a background in mechanics and computers). I'll add there was NO valid reason for any confusion. If Kohler wanted to use letter characters to represent binary numbers - to represent "ON" and "OFF - how hard would of had been to mention it in the Kohler owner's manual?  Note the owner's manual says "ON" and "OFF", not :"I" and "O."  I further note that my on my Chinese Harbor Freight engine - they took the time to label with both.  Has "I" alongside "ON" and "O" alongside "OFF." So it seems the Chinese were insightful enough to realize there might be a communication problem with just an "I" and "O."

When I first saw the engine - I assumed "I" was on and was correct. Problem was - the engine would not start and that's when second-guessing came into play.

;Also - to JJRBUS's comment .  "  Many American products though more expensive are cheaper in the long run! "
That is true, but so is the converse.  Many Chinese products are by far cheaper short-term and in the long-run as compared to some US sourced stuff.

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17 hours ago, jdemaris said:

Since when has the USA been about being sensible?  We started out as traitors to the King and revolted in a cause that made no logical sense to fight (yet we won somehow). We drive cars that have never made any sense on a utilitarian basis and live in communities that pretty much force us to have them.  Etc.  &c.     

your logic about our collective national illogic is compelling........;) 

and your axle story makes me wonder....did the guy who puts the races in just not notice that half of the bearing assembly was still there on the bench?  did he not care and sweep those pesky spare bits into the trash?  or did the bearing manufacturer ship em without races and the installer never noticed?  either way, not confidence inspiring. 

interesting discussion all ways around on cost-benefit ratios.  I like my Blue Sky charge controller and suspect it will be considerably more reliable than Chinese electronics...... but it's hard to argue with the fact that one could replace something like 12 of those $17 charge controllers for the same $. 

I still do tend to think that Japanese stuff has better quality control than China's, Europe's, or America's, due to a number of factors including the national psyche, and that their plastics/rubber technology and metallurgy is ahead of most everyone else's.  not to mention their cadmium plating.  I wouldn't have been nearly as quick to buy a needs-mucho-work Bandit built on a Chevy S10.  Even stuff that's sold with essentially a "consumable" price and market positioning is well made and well thought through and uses good materials.....our Honda CT110 motorcycle (the old Honda "trail 90" carried on the bumper of a thousand motorhomes) and 2 hp Honda outboards would be great examples. 

I'm shopping for a generator for the Bandit now and have been reading literally hundreds of reviews on both the Honda 2000w and its many Chinese (and American: Generac) knockoffs clones and competitors*.  I always read them from worst to best, to get a fast idea on their quality control.  Obviously, one applies the "dolt filter" to some of the comments but there are always lots of reasonably intelligent ones.  I think i'm going to buy the generator whose worst review began, "This is the Cadillac of small generators" and where, more importantly, there were NO tales of inexplicable failures, dealer/manufacturer stonewalling on warranty or design issues, or lengthy waits for parts with a dead product.  Would a Generac or POwerhorse or HF do the job for less $?  probably, most of the time.  and the manufacturer sounds really sincere :rolleyes: in their responses to the bad reviews.............      but there's something to be said for certainty that i'll be happy with the purchase 3 years later when i'm dropping $600 to a grand.

 

* the Honda is actually built in Thailand but obviously has Japanese quality control, just as I suspect Texas-built Tacos n tundras do

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The funny thing was - I hadn't even thought about trying to start it at the store. I hitched it to my van and was getting ready to tow it home when the store manager came running out. He came up to me and said "make sure you turn that gas off when towing."  I said OK, how the heck do you shut it off?  He looked at it and was dumbfounded. He said the splitter he last sold (before me) had "ON" and "OFF" on it.  So, it was his idea to put it where he thought was "ON" and start it.  Then after about 20 pulls and not even a sputter, he tried it the other way.  Then, still not starting, he went in the store and got someone else.   Then a farmer walked over because he was thinking of buying one of these splitters and he tried to start it. NOTHING.  So it turned into a circus.  By the way, took my new home-made DC generator outside today with the new Chinese Harbor Freight engine on it ($99).   Put gas in it, pulled the rope and it started on the 2nd pull and runs perfectly.  Looks like an amazing bargain at $99.  It also has "ON" and "OFF."  How thoughtful of those Asians !       This is all kind of a shame. I was a small engine mechanic for years and been to many a service school for Clinton, Tecumseh, Onan, Briggs, Wisconsin, Kohler, etc.  I always used to consider Kohler top of the line when it came to build quality and durability. NOT anymore.  I am cured from any desire to ever buy anything with the Kohler name on it.  For now on if I need an engine, it is Harbor Freight el-cheapo, or Subaru if I want the best in the business.  I have a Kohler owner's manual here that is 162 pages and only 8 of those pages are in English and NO mention of any binary "I" or "O" being used.  My Harbor Freight owner's manual for the Chinese Predator 212 cc engine is 28 pages and ALL in English.  Also, unlike the Kohler manual, has a good description of the controls like choke with "choke and "run", and gas valve with "OFF" and "ON", and ignition with "OFF" and "ON", etc.

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Not too many years ago a friend s business went OFF SHORE to manufacture a series of small engines. They set up a good QC system and had a good product. A problem developed with the stuff that failed QC. Instead of scrapping the bad stuff the actual factory was selling the rejects out the back door and some body was taking the junk parts and making engines. Counterfeit boxes and the rejects already had the correct markings. These were really bad and soon the product line closed because the junker reliability problems overwhelmed the reputation of the real engine.

Another conversion overheard at a suppliers convention was a Chinese supplier of high quality stuff was complaining about unscrupulous Chinese manufactures copying his stuff and  selling "illegal " clones.:rolleyes:

  

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IF you wonder around Asia a bit and go to some markets you will find products that are marked "Made in USA"   There is no way no how those products are made in the USA unless it is Usa village in Thailand!

In Thailand I bought a US silver dollar from the 1800's the only way to tell it was not real was to weight it.  The counterfeits weigh slightly less than a real dollar.  

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The Thai's have made some really nice stuff. We used to get Thai fender edge molding for MB it was without a doubt the best made stuff of the lot more than likely came from the spent US brass shells. I have a Chinese generator that was the forerunner of Champion generators its on/off switch is 1 and 0 it's upside down and is using the wrong side of a dpst switch so that the 0 is on and the 1 is off but I got over it and now turn it off to start it. The choke has an arrow so everything else just goes out the window as far as marking. It is a global world the US sends things over seas the rest of the world sends stuff here it all should kind of match the Korean figure for on is an open gate off is a closed gate there is no way anyone else could read the figure so we are left with 1’s and 0’s.

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4 hours ago, Derek up North said:

Not exactly a new phenomenon. $5 Rolexs in Times Square come to mind. :)

And the automotive equivalent:-

miamivice_1420347i.jpg

I had a Thai Rolex actually several and other brand name watches (my British friend owned a co. called Thai Travel) I was waiting for my wife at a athletic club where she worked and one of the members spotted my watch and was drooling over it so I took it off and gave it to him and left cost me about $8. If they lasted long enough the chrome plate would come off and then you had a gold Rolex.

Edited by Maineah
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11 hours ago, Maineah said:

no way anyone else could read the figure so we are left with 1’s and 0’s.

 

The fact remains that Kohler is an American company and sellling engines in the US market -and  it would not take much to add "ON" and "OFF", or just add mention of binary "I" and "O" in the owner's manual.  The Chinese engines via Harbor Freight figured it out OK. Global market my a**.   I'd like to see someone try to sell a new car that way in the US.

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