Intermittent starting problem

[jayemright]

Hello Everyone!  We are on the tail end of a 3 and a half month road trip:8500 miles done, 1500 to go.  Our 1985 Sunrader has been plagued by an intermittent starting problem that has dogged it since we first got it 8 years and 25000 miles ago.  In that time we have replaced 2 batteries, we are on the third starter, and an auto electrical place went in and replaced every cable in the ignition system. Every time we do something it works well for a while, but it always comes back to the same symptom.  When it is warm, occasionally, it will just sit there and "click": It doesn't crank, just a click at the starter (the 85 has the solenoid built in)   Then when it goes, it  turns over like normal and starts right up.  Battery reads 12.6 volts, and doesn't drop much when cranked. About half an hour later it usually goes and takes right off. I have a "power pack" which is essentially a car battery, and that will not start it, but if you jump it from the higher voltage of a running automobile, it takes right off. We have also noticed that it is more likely to happen if you leave the key in the ACC postion and listen to the radio or check the GPS or something like that, even or a minute.  New battery a month ago.  No problems for a week.  New starter 2 weeks ago, no problems for a week, then two instances of non-starting.  I am close to the end of the trip and visiting family and friends in Detroit so I would like to deal with it now.  Getting tired of being nervous every time we try to start it. I am thinking it might be the ignition switch, as that is the only part of the system I have not replaced yet.  Any suggestions that any of you have would be greatly appreciated. Thanks, James

[zero]

14 minutes ago, jayemright said:

  When it is warm, occasionally, it will just sit there and "click": It doesn't crank, just a click at the starter (the 85 has the solenoid built in)   Then when it goes, it  turns over like normal and starts right up.  Battery reads 12.6 volts, and doesn't drop much when cranked. About half an hour later it usually goes and takes right off. 

If the starter was drawing any current - battery voltage should drop to 9-10 volts.  The "click" indicates that the starter solenoid contacts are hitting each other but no current is being drawn.  Since you say they've been changed several times - I assume the contacts cannot be the problem.  If someone was trying to properly diagnose this problem in a shop (a smart mechanic) - a carbon-pile load tester would be hooked to the main power-post  on the starter and checked for how much amperage is actually available there.  It is an easy test and the only sure test. Without the correct test being done - I can only venture a guess and say maybe your engine is not properly grounded.  Have you checked to make sure there is a heavy (at least 4 gauge) cable bolted directly to your engine block somewhere?

[jayemright]

I know that there is a big cable running from the negative terminal on the battery to one of the mounting bolts on the starter. The auto electrical folks seemed to be big into grounding things, but I will go in and check again to make sure everything is tight.   Part of the problem is that, due to it's intermittent nature, no one has actually ever seen it malfunction.  The  last time it did it to me was at the pumps at a crowded gas station in Phoenix, so I was in no position to run any diagnostics.  I will take at it with my wrench and look for loose ground wires, though. Thanks very much for your advice!!  

[zero]

4 minutes ago, jayemright said:

   Part of the problem is that, due to it's intermittent nature, no one has actually ever seen it malfunction.   

Yes, intermittent problems are hard to diagnose.  All the more reason to use a carbon-pile load-tester.  I see no excuse for any decent shop not to have one.   If that starter was working correctly and getting all the power it needed - it would draw around 200 amps and make the battery voltage drop to 9-10 volts.  To simulate what a starter does - a load-tester gets hooked to the same ground and same positive cable as your starter.  Then it gets cranked up to  300-400 amps to see if it exposes a power supply problem. If there is a wiring problem - this test will show it. 

[WME]

Shadetree trick, when it is doing this give the starter solenoid a wack, the handle end of a big screw driver works great.  If it starts then the problem is still I the starter.

A solenoid rebuild kit is an easy ebay item. Sorta looks like this.  http://www.ebay.com/itm/Starter-Solenoid-Repair-Kit-Victory-Lap-ND-36SOL-/121743080396?fits=Year%3A1985%7CMake%3AToyota&hash=item1c5873fbcc:g:baAAAOSw0JpV3t51&vxp=mtr

[zero]

The "poor man's" way to check is have a voltmeter hooked to the post on the starter.  Negative lead clipped to the body of the starter. If the starter "clicks" - voltage AT that post will read around 12 volts or over (whatever actual battery voltage is) IF the solenoid contacts or starter brushes are bad.  If the starter/solenoid is good - the voltage AT that post will drop severely when you hear the "click."  If it DOES drop - then you need to know why. If battery voltage AT the battery stays at over 12 volts - then you know there is bad connection.  Again - the reason why a carbon-pile tester is used. With it you can put twice the load on the wiring as the starter ever will and for intermittent problems other then the stater/solenoid - it will expose them.  I realize you said the starter has been replaced several times. Just wondering - replaced with what?  If the starter IS in question - I recommend the brand-new Chinese Denso clones for $75.  No trade in or core-charge.  So you get to keep your old starter to repair if wanted.  Pure Energy # 16674N.   I've been using these new Chinese starters for over 10 years now - in farm tractors, my bulldozer, both my diesel trucks, my Dodge van, etc. Zero problems.

As WME already stated - if the starter just "clicks" but works after you hit it with something - it might mean the solenoid contacts are bad (most likely).  However, it can also mean bad brushes or even a bad ground depending on where you hit it.  Just got home after four days of the starter not working in my Ford diesel truck unless I hit it with a hammer.  Had a Nippo Denso gear-reduction starter.  In my case - the problem was not the solenoid. It was worn out brushes.  Regardless - it is on my parts shelf now and I replaced with a brand new Chinese clone.

[jjrbus]

Intermittent electrical issues are my worst nightmare.  Battery, wires, starter replaced, gone over by electrical shop.   At this point a for sale sign would be my fix!  I have a question the ignition switch has not been replaced, what would be an easy way to bypass the ignition switch and wiring to test?

 

[zero]

IGN switch sends positive power though the neutral-safety switch (if automatic trans) and then to the starter solenoid. Not much there to bypass.

[Derek up North]

You could always do it Aussie 'Ricer' style!

 

[mustrmrk]

We've got the same intermittent starting problem in our 1987 Escaper.  Ours is definitely the ignition switch.  Try turning the key to the start position and gradually release it - sometimes ours catches and starts part way back.  It happens more with a cold start - after it's up to operating temperature, it doesn't seem to happen as often. 

When we were in Baja last winter,  I ran a fused wire from the battery to a push button starter switch near the steering column and back to the starter.  Works like a champ every time the ignition switch decides not to work.  I just ordered a new replacement switch and will be changing it before other sections of the old switch fail.

Edited May 10, 2016 by mustrmrk

[Maineah]

They are very good starters and other than the contacts they usually out last the vehicle. It is a very common problem with a no crank on a Toyota.