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This will be a big week for the toy. I finally took the plunge on one of the Mach one Power saver rooftop 11,000 BTU units we all keep discussing.

Mind you my generator would run my old Mach 3 but it was 13500 BTU and the generator is a 2500 watt and barely started it and would overload periodically.

On top of that the old Mach 3 was too much AC. We called it the meat locker. even on low it would freeze out every inside So I am hoping the 11,000

will be the ideal unit. It arrives tomorrow. I plan to walk it onto the roof like I did the last one and will take some pics.

I'll be selling the 4 year old Mach 3 soon.. I'm sure someone with snap it up for their large RV on ebay/craigs with July approaching shouldn't take long.

I also had the Supco SPP6 show up from amazon yesterday for $8 on prime. I'll be installing that prior to swapping out the AC as I am going to let the new owner of the old Mach 3 have the SPP6 I installed in it.

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Hmmm, did you research the hard start capacitor on the mach one, they must be doing something to power save?

After some due diligence I did not use the  SPP6.    It seems there is a switch in there that provides either 110 or 220, that can go bad and fry a 110 unit.   Lets see capacitor made in China, switch made by lowest bidder in China, what could go wrong?   Electronics is not my field so only my opinion.      Jim

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yeeeeah, the capacitor actually HELPS your equipment on both sides because you replace wimpy capacitor with it and the current doesnt have to spike like it would otherwise, although you may also leave it in connected alongside the stock capacitor too; it wont hurt anything. The capacitor you speak of that switches 110 to 220 is the SPP6E not the SPP6 - they are two totally different versions and the SPP6E (e standing for electronic) is debatable but even then I do not think it would hurt anything, just wont help as much or at all possibly though some people swear by them as well.. My source is SUPCO themselves, call them if you like, they are more than happy to tell you what their products do.

You say it seems it can fry a 110 unit? trying to start a 110 unit with a low wattage generator WITHOUT the capacitor is what will fry it along with the generator.

The SPP6 is just a cap, nothing special no electronics like the SPP6E that has a circuit board and switch.

Think of the capacitor as a battery. when a sudden call for service of current is made the capacitor answers the call to start the unit initially instead of ramping up your generator so badly; which your generator may or may not be able to do in time and instead puts electrical strain on the compressor in the case where a capacitor is NOT used.

in commercial air conditioners (and factory stock rooftop ones) the cap is wimpy because its assumed the majority current may come from the service line...30-50 Amps worth...this is why the capacitor is dangerous don't touch one that's suspected to be energized.

Also the Locked rotor Amps rating of the generator is drastically reduced to a range that a smaller generator can make move by using one of these.

I had a SPP6E on my old AC and cut the circuit board off of it and just had the Cap straight wired on mine as it would do nothing but once I took the board off it and cut the bridge diode it started it; not well but sometimes mostly at night... mostly...

why don't the manufacturers (all of which are in china) of the AC put the SUPCO's in already you say? because they are cheap and are expecting you to plug into 30 AMP camping posts and not to a generator and further more some of them DO put them in to begin with supposedly.

 

Edited by Totem
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these are not entirely dissimilar than a supco "hard start" whether your are cranking a starter or a compressor... a high "C" discharge rating is what you are after.

Edited by Totem
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well the AC unit just arrived. 85 lbs super light weight.

It fit in the trunk of my e300td which was nice.

I gotta be honest aside from the much less weight it seems identical to the Mach 3....

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I do not have a Electronics background and people post so much crap that I could not process it all so going with a different cap was the easy and quick way for me.

They keep listing it as a multi voltage cap, which I found confusing! So found a straight 120 cap. 

Thanks for the explanation.             Jim

 

 

toy.PNG

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That's because it can operate on a range. its just a capacitor.  you can use it to start a fridge, a water cooler or an industrial air conditioner. These are not all going to be cookie cutter applications. The juice that flows in is controlled directly by your application and is store accordingly.

So when you energize the AC by turning on its fan, it stores a charge in the cap. Note that this happened in a second as you switch from fan to on.. so is better to leave on fan a few seconds to charge up the cap.

Many things have operating voltage... I had similar concerns as you do with a solar panel charge controller I just bought on amazon that had 12-24 volt operating range.. my silly arse opened it up expecting there to be a dip switch to tell the controller what my application was; instead it has an operating range and based on the voltage present automatically determines the charge to put on the batteries. - now this may not be a great example as it's solid state and explains how the SPP6E would run... as to the SPP6... well think of it like this.. have you ever started your riding mower with your truck battery because the riding mowers battery is too weak to start it? did the 12 volt truck battery damage the riding mower? nope. 12 volt is 12 volt. - started it right up; sure it has a different CCA number but it supplied the same voltage with maybe more current. If the cap has 90 volt applied that's what it will discharged at when called on  for.

 

its pretty hard to get a UL recognition on a product... UL is all I need to see. If you have ever had a weak battery that shows 12.8 volts but when applied to a starter and it drops to 10 this is similar to trying to start an IC compressor with not enough current.

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so it sounds like this would be a no-brainer any time one is running an A/C unit that draws near their generator's max output?  not dealing with a typical RV rooftop unit in my case...... you just wire this into the hot supply line?

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you wire this into the start capacitor and replace it or add to it. Its called a "hard start capacitor" and what that means is that some compressors are hard to start; they will exhibit max lock rotor or worse every time. The SP66 is also a favorite of HVAC techs that do not have the specific starting capacitor on hand to replace; i.e from loss of electrolyte failure etc they can just attach this one to the dog ears and it will keep it running. The SP66 is quite large when compared to the stock cap; I'd say the stock cap is like 35 mm film can in size whilst this cap is more like a small red bull can ; quite a bit larger. So maybe you have a hard to start freezer that trips your 15/20 amp breaker and yet it will sometimes run or sometimes trip and you have ruled out the breaker you could try this $8.00 cap and save yourself buying a new freezer, or having a more costly compressor replacement.

Or in the RV 's case fire up a rooftop with a 2500 predator inverter genny... like me -B)

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i'm sure i'll be back with more Qs once I actually get the capacitor in hand.  but my plan is similar to yours.....run the 7.8 amp draw, 5800 btu wall A/C unit on a 1000W Honda gen.....it should run OK but i'm worried about starting the compressor.

thanks for the info.  I understand all the theory, but it's really nice having someone here with such hands-on electrical experience.

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I would start with the $8 booster. it wont hurt anything to try and in a situation where you are right on the line of getting it to start you just might get across the line with one.

an alternative could also be this gem: https://yachtaidmarine.com/shop/marine-air-conditioner/self-contained/sc-accessories/dometic-smart-start-ii-cruisair-337975-337976-337977/

but yikes is it pricey... may as well get a HF predator 2500 than this thing.

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yeah, no kidding on the $ for that thing.  

but if I felt like toting a 2500w gen, this would be a non-issue....i'm trying to keep the weight way down and the Honda and Yam 1000W units seem to be the only small ones that will run my A/C....Generac IQ800 is too small.  25 pounds difference to go to a 2000-2500W unit may not seem like much, but it's going on the rear bumper so the long lever arm magnifies the effect on handling.   with a bracket and a jerrycan for fuel, we're still talking adding 50+ lbs to extreme rear end, not too good from a mass centralization standpoint.

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  • 3 weeks later...

Well all, the AC mach 1 ps is a smashing success. Installed and fires turn key barely at all spiking my predator 2500 inverter genny. Granted its not that hot out but it started 10/10 times without batting an eye. 

Some things i found interesting compared to my former mach 3 standard 13500:

1.) it weighs at least 30 lbs less.

2.) when i went to install the supco hard start cap the cap i found inside was large and more powerfull! A 370 vac super cap was in it already.  I piggy backed the supco on it anyway while i was under the hood.

3.) it did indeed bolt right up to my existing controller.

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Greg: server side on upload error: there was a problem processing the uploaded file. 200 otherwise i would post the kill a watt pictures .. Its pulling about 7.5 amps on full blast cold... Thats about 900 watts. Man oh man i bet a honda 1000 could run this possibly

Edited by Totem
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update, i was brave enough to rewire the romex back into the main breaker to get rid of my special AC run; because before the mach 3 was pulling 2000 watts it needed its own circuit. Kill a watt shows 970 watts with the mach 1 powersaver full blast along with the factory charge converter on.. Not bad... Eventually it settled to 670 watts after a bit. even with fridge on still 670-970 tops. This was best $580 i ever spent.

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With this kind of performance my next mod should be getting a plasma cutter and removing the oven but keeping the stovetop...lord knows my pizzaz pizza maker will out cook this crappy oven and i could get usable space... Anyone ever remove just the oven?

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the 1000 would run it, but you'll be happier with the 2000.  I was looking at the 1000 and just reached that conclusion on my even-smaller A/C.  running gen at 1/2 load = LOTS less noise and fuel consumption, not to mention effect on longevity of gen. this is especially true with the variable-motor-speed inverter generators like the Hondas.   17 pounds difference between the 1000 and 2000, per Honda, and seems about $200 difference if bought new.  I strongly suspect the 2000 will use much less gas than the 1000 when running your A/C.

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Oh agree 100% the 2000 would run your whole rig and this thing for sure. Id get a predator though... Mine has several weeks of hours on it now over 2 years of running cabins and rv. Runs strong starts first pull and at $490 quite budget friendly

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no doubt the HF generators and those from Northern are great bang for the $.  lots of folks make Honda knockoffs, at least in appearance, and many are decent units.  but comparing even the HF knockoff of the Honda 2000, it's rated at 64 dB at not-stated load (ie, I assume 1/2 load or less if they avoid stating).  the Honda makes 59 dB at full honk and 53 at 1/2 load.  as you know, given how the logarithmic scale on dB works, 64 dB is over twice as loud as 53 dB.   it weighs 64 pounds to the Honda's <47.  the smallest Predator model (4000w), which is going to be more representative of the old-style non-inverter gens, weighs 99 lbs and puts out 70dB, again at not-stated load. 

there are about a zillion used gens on local CL...Predators, Champions, youname it.... and most any of em would get the job done.  BUT I want 1)least feasible weight on rear bumper and 2) quietest and 3)user friendly to the point that even a wholly non-mechanical spouse can't be defeated by it.  and 4) dead nuts reliable (no glitches) even when not run and maintained by a mecho-nerd.  and I don't need and don't want to lug 4000+ watts unit when i'll never use much over 1000.  and when I need parts for the Honda, I know i'll be able to find em.  HF or Northern units from a few years back, who knows?

Yes, I know I pay a lot more for the Honda.  like 2x what you paid for probably twice the wattage.  and I know that part of what i'm paying for is Name.  but there's that other part.......engineering and quality control.  not even the equivalent Yamaha gets the almost-uniformly-good reviews.  trust me, i'm not eager to drop $1000 on a small generator if there's a reasonable alternative that gives me what I need at half the $.  i read literally thousands of reviews on virtually every small generator commonly available, on Amazon, HF and Northern, and Lowes/Despot sites. (even looked at that nasty (but light) 2 stroke Stormcat thing (91 dB!) , which might sorta run the AC.)  the Yamaha and Generac inverter units came close, but even those had some quality control issues.    but.........NO ONE who'd bought the Honda wishes they'd bought something else.  period.  even the inevitable mouthbreeders and idiots aren't defeated by it.  that kind of idiot proofing and sweating the details is worth something, IMHO. 

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suit yourself...but you left out it puts out 2500 watts to the hondas 1600... thats a big difference. You also left out the fact that Honda doesnt have a brick n mortar store and HF does.

So basically if the thing dies ; i just pull a switch a roo and return it anyway. try doing that with a honda.

 

" NO ONE who'd bought the Honda wishes they'd bought something else. "

I debunked this myth in another post with a page where there were honda repair and warranty nightmares.

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where'd you see these?  I haven't bought yet.  I just re-read the negative reviews on AMazon and there are two that seem like pretty legit issues.  (I ignore complaints from people who don't understand the relationship between tiny carb jets on small engines and old-fuel varnish around the edge of the jet orifice leaning things out).    as I said, i'm trying to be open minded.  I will admit to a Honda bias, since I like working on basically the same simple, reliable SOHC engine in wife's C70, a lawnmower,  and two outboards. 

11 minutes ago, Totem said:

basically if the thing dies ; i just pull a switch a roo and return it anyway

you do mean if the HF one dies during the first 90 days, right?  after that, no switcheroo unless you bought the extended warranty.  am I missing something?  also, has Honda eliminated their network of dealers?  I could have sworn I saw a Honda sign along the freeway on the way home yesterday......and I kinda think I've gotten parts there before.  ???   FWIW, I can still get parts for a 1979 CM175 Twinstar, a cheapie throwaway motorcycle, from Honda.  think i'll be able to find parts for anything from HF 37 years after the sale?  at least in the motorcycle realm, Honda has it all over even Yamaha on parts availability for older bikes.  Most Honda bike dealers are also Honda engine dealers; that's not as true about Yamahas.

I left out the comparative wattage because for my intended purposes, the two are effectively identical.  and note that the 2500 is surge watts, so apples to apples would be more like 2200 vs 1600 running or 2500 vs 2000 surge.  and that's assuming the manufacturer is not lying.......here are a few comments on that big wattage difference from people who actually bought the HF unit in question: 

This unit was put thru many test with a kilowatt meter. Bottom line it wont do what it says it can do. Especially when it comes to a 11.9 amp 1340 watts air conditioner. It wont come even close to starting it. I gradually added tools even to give it the benefit of the doubt and it overloads @1900watts. I called the customer service number in the manual no answers but a promised call back from a supervisor tech and that never happened. What your getting yourself into is wasting $10 of 10w30 oil when you buy it plus Harbor Freights insult of a restock fee. Do not buy and make the company address their issues.

Made the plunge after reading many positive reviews at the end... to power up our pop-up trailer with A/C
$500 mistake...
Topped it up, checked oil, started up fairly quickly at first, then just stopped. Restarted with a bit more difficulty, let it run for five min. and again... stopped, no explanation.
Restarted a third time, added a few small loads trailer lights etc ok, added in the a/c... overload, unit wouldnt even power on, althugh multiple users claime to have done the same in recent reviews.
Powered off, ran the a/c on its own with nothing else, overload.
Turned off, and now the unit will not even start up... Look elsewhere.

I bought this generator to power a small (17 foot) travel trailer. I did all the math and 2000 watts should have been plenty to run the air, but even with everything else turned ofF, it just couldn't do the job. To make matters worse the person that checked me out at the store, who just happened to be a manager, told me at check out that it could not be returned if it failed to run any equipment. Wonder how he knew to say that, especially when,according to the manufacturer of my air conditioning unit, this generator should have been more than enough. Live and learn! $500 mistake!

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I know a couple of people who have been very happy with this generator. Quiet and light as a Honda and runs on a Yamaha engine.

http://www.costco.com/Smarter-Tools-2000-watt-Parallel-Capable-Inverter-Generator-with-Yamaha%C2%AE-Engine.product.100121916.html

When Costco introduced them they were some crazy price like $399. Home Depot carries them too

Linda S

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interesting.  looks like a pretty good knockoff of the Predator...that Is the red one that everyone tries to make their inverter gen look like, right?  ;)    pretty decent reviews, altho many of them seem to like it for the easy Costco return policy....lots more reviews and info on the Despot site, but they want $80 more for it than Costco.  47 lbs, about the same as a Honda.  they claim less dB than the Honda  but one guy actually tested it and they may have been optimistic:  User submitted photo

but all told, it does look like a semi viable alternative.  not as cheap as it used to be but still 60% of cost of a Honda. 

still thinking...........

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I have the HOnda 2000, it is 5 or 6 years old with only a couple hours on it.  It is my emergency back up unit and will be used on the Toy.

When I pull the cord I want something that starts and Honda gets a big thumbs up from me!  I wish I could say it is a Ford or GM, but that is wishful thinking.

I have noticed that Champion is making a name for themselves and might consider one of those. 

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the "switcharoo" is simple. you buy another one... and return the crap one with the new ones receipt. they credit your card. end of story.  Am i really the only person that does this after 90 days at HF? i dont think so...

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On 5/10/2016 at 6:31 PM, linda s said:

I know a couple of people who have been very happy with this generator. Quiet and light as a Honda and runs on a Yamaha engine.

http://www.costco.com/Smarter-Tools-2000-watt-Parallel-Capable-Inverter-Generator-with-Yamaha%C2%AE-Engine.product.100121916.html

When Costco introduced them they were some crazy price like $399. Home Depot carries them too

Linda S

Now this one... i like this... for an extra $110 you get a yamaha japanese engine AND the no questions return policy of costco... BUT its still only 1600 watts running 2000 spike. I like my 2500.

I am in year 3 of using my 2500 predator.. its still going strong. each year it does i laugh more and more at the naysayers. At 3 years ownership and the sheer tons of use i have put on mine i know its paid itself. well off already.

Edited by Totem
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if i did not have what i have i would go the costco Yamaha route for sure. Yamaha has done many partnered engines with Toyota; so having a Yamaha generator is much more of a fashion match to go with the rig, for sure.

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5 hours ago, Totem said:

the "switcharoo" is simple. you buy another one... and return the crap one with the new ones receipt. they credit your card. end of story.  Am i really the only person that does this after 90 days at HF? i dont think so...

Stamar? Is that you?

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No but I agree with his school of thought; after all a vendor has 3 choices... make a solid product that wont come back, offer a decent warranty, or change the plastics and chassis every so often so that it cannot be mistaken for a later model.

When you see them frequently change the outer color of an item thats usually what they are up to; shirking switcharoo on known crap product. But when you see the build stay the same for a long time its indicative of a solid product.

I have not seen the predators body change at all since its release. interestingly; I am in year 3 of running one and they only offer a 3 year max extended warranty. SO... tell me how a honda would be better exactly? on year 4 failure of a honda does a magical unicorn come out and give you a new one>?

Edited by Totem
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BUSTED!  why yes, that's why I consider buying Hondas, for a glimpse of the magical unicorn.  ignore all that silly stuff I said about a track record of being able to find parts (that fit!) for an item 30+ years later, or solid engineering rather than a pirated knockoff of someone else's engineering, or metallurgy and rubber that are far ahead of the best China has to offer, or specs that are based on actual tests rather than wishful thinking and can be replicated by customers (see:  78.6 dB).  none of that.  why, when my 2hp Honda outboard was submerged in sandy surf for 3 hours, the unicorn even touched my hand and the motor put itself back together free of silt!  Hallelujah!  Hail Sochiro!  I march in lockstep with the Slaves of the Unicorn!  I even BLEED red!

OK, sorry, silly sarcasm deserves more.  I never said a predator wouldn't probably work.  and your logic on the form factor changes makes sense.  and your approach to China Inc makes sense....the switcheroo of crap products is about what they deserve, although my mom and my old scoutmaster wouldn't approve. 

7 hours ago, Totem said:

make a solid product that wont come back

of course, if you do, China Inc* will pirate the design and sell a lower-quality knockoff at 60% of the price and some folks will sneer at your customers for buying the real thing.  when they bring out the no-name Chinese knockoff of that Mach 1 you bought, do ya think it will be of the same quality or work the same?  JD has correctly noted that Japan used to occupy the same position as China...the great imitators....in the 50s and 60s.  but I've used their cameras of that vintage (early Nikons and Canons were so close to leicas and Zeiss's that the lenses would interchange!) and they were not crappy quality or visibly cruder than the original.

 

*I keep saying China Inc but the blame lies equally at the feet of greedy n savvy American marketers who realize the continuing truth of PT Barnum's observations on the American public.  apparently some of em work at Kohler too........

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Funny, I have some weapons china clone parts that are made in china and they even have the competitors pirated logo on them; and are literally indiscernible from the actual's in every way; they only way that i know for sure that they arent original is that i paid 1/4 for them on a chinese site.. they even say "made in Israel" on them.  Just because something is a knock off doesn't mean its not of any value or up to the task. Both my actual Mako bipod and my chinese knock off are fully functional and i would bet you would not be able to tell what the real one is for example...Of course I am also keenly aware of several small machine repair stores near me that wont refuse to work on an HF genny; and can source a part to anything under the sun. Also, the myth of the Honda's obscene unicorn reliability is second only to the assumptions people make that the knock offs cannot get replacement parts and that the Honda has some kind of great service...

http://www.walleyecentral.com/forums/archive/index.php/t-348561.html

i hardly had to look far for people who's defective Honda's failed to deploy the unicorn. see above link for just one example.

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