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Oil Usage


sailfritz

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Hello Linda from Los Gatos)

Took my 85 Toyhouse (22re motor) on a 5 month road trip June 18th with 54,000 driving through 27 States & started to use more and more oil. Uses almost a quart each tankful! A puff of blue smoke when cold starting is all I notice, only 72,000 on motor now so how can you tell if it needs valve seal guides and who can perform this work in the Bay area? Any comments and suggestions welcomed.

Scratching my head in Gilroy

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A puff of smoke at start up IS a sign of oil past the valve-stem seals. But a quart of oil per tank of gas is a lot. That makes me think you have other wear issues on top of the valve-seal problem. My 22RE uses a quart on every trip I take to the UP and back. That's 6-7 tanks of gas per quart. I put new valve guides and seals in mine and it made no difference. But mine never puffed any smoke - before or after the work.

There used to be many engines built new with no valve seals at all and they did not use that much oil.

If you want to give new seals a try - new ones can be put in without taking the head off. It's tricky though since some of the head bolts have to come out. I did mine in a couple of hours and I put in new center head bolts when done. The center head bolts in these Toyota 4-bangers seem to get corroded something awful. I use the compressed air method. Put and air-chuck fitting in a spark-plug hole and pressurize the cylinder (one at a time). Then take the valve spring and retainer off, put on the new seal, and put back together. There are other ways but that is my preference.

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Would a compression test at least tell me where to look to fix this oil usage and I only have 72,000 on the 22re motor. I think the previous owner let it set 20 months without starting allowing seals to crack, what do ya think?

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It kind of goes like this. A compression test and/or a cylinder leak-down test will tell you for sure the engine has problems IF you get a bad reading. But if you get a good reading - you still won't know what's going on. I've had many an engine that ate oil and tested perfect.

I find it doubtful that sitting for near 2 years hurt anything.

How do you know for sure it only has 72K miles on the motor? Just curious. At least with stuff I get - rarely know the history for sure. My 1988 with a 22RE has 140K and supposedly had "never been apart." When I had the head off - I found the wrong pistons in the wrong cylinders. Not an issue mechanically - but a sure sign someone had it apart before. #1 piston was in #4 cylinder, etc.

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One more comment but not about conventional seals. If that engine got dry on the top end and the oil-rings on the pistons got a little sticky from sitting - you might have to drive the heck out of it for awhile and it might improve.

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I have never tried the following on a car/truck (never had to), but several times on motorcycles.

1) take a compression reading of each cylinder

2) add a squirt or two of oil into a cylinder via the spark plug oil

3) take a compression reading of that cylinder

4) if the compression goes up, the piston rings are worn

5) if the compression stays the same, the valve seals are worn

Also, what weight oil are you using?

If I recall from my 86 Toyota pickup (R22 engine), it was 10w30 and 10w40.

If you were using 10w30 (or 5w-30), try using 10w40 (which is thicker than both) to see if that reduces the oil consumption.

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I tried using a quart of the special oil additive that flows like honey and was supposed to help stop oil leaks in seal and rings,.........and I have been using straight 30 wt oil for added thickness but with no results. I put my hand up to the tailpipe while running and a oily black mist comes out, the oil! I will try the compression test and the odometer reads 73,000 with a zero for the 100,000 mark so has not turned over yet. This engine can't be burning it as it doesn't smoke blue,........... like you think it would using so much oil. I heard a bad PVC valve can draw off oil out the exhaust,.true?

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A bad PVC can increase the pressure in the crankcase and force oil past seals amd maybe the rings..

Have you checked around underneath and looked for signs of leakage. I seem to remember something about 1 drop of oil per mile is about 1000 mi per qt consumpsion.

See if you can have someone do a blowdown check.

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I tried using a quart of the special oil additive that flows like honey and was supposed to help stop oil leaks in seal and rings,.........and I have been using straight 30 wt oil for added thickness but with no results. I put my hand up to the tailpipe while running and a oily black mist comes out, the oil! I will try the compression test and the odometer reads 73,000 with a zero for the 100,000 mark so has not turned over yet. This engine can't be burning it as it doesn't smoke blue,........... like you think it would using so much oil. I heard a bad PVC valve can draw off oil out the exhaust,.true?

No change in oil viscosity is going to change your problem. No faulty PCV system will cause the type of oil usage you're talking about. Not unless the PCV valve is installed in the wrong place. The area in the valve-cover where the PCV connects has a baffle chamber so normally - no raw oil can make its way in. Now - if the engine was so sludged up that the area inside the valve-cover actually filled with oil - then yes. That was a common problem in the 60s with GM and Fords that had been run with only non-detergent oil. The oil-return holes in the head would plug with sludge and the area would actually fill with oil. Kind of doubtful with your Toyota. If what you see inside the oil filler hole is clean - likely the rest is too. But - you can check.

On the subject of oil viscosity - in theory - 5W-30 has the same effective viscosity as straight 30W. I've had some engines that were oil burners actually burn less with straight 10W then they did with 15W-40. So, you never know. Much depends on what is causing the oil consumption to start with.

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OK, good responses from you all and I thank you. Changed the oil and put in Bar's Leaks Valve Seal Oil Consumption repair oil additive with synthetic polymers, ever heard of this stuff? Not as thick as STP.

I also changed the PCV valve and noticed with the new one it's a one way valve like a reed valve. Suck in but can't blow out. With the old one I that I removed I could blow through and suck in so it wasn't working.

Now granted I've only gone 50 miles and a tankful for me is around 200 (would use a almost a quart) but no sign of oil usage so far! I don't know if it's a combination of the seals now sealing from the additive or the PCV valve working properly but something is different for sure. I have another 60 mile trip tomorrow and will see how it goes especially hitting 65mph on the freeway.

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Before you start replacing stuff have a close look at your front crank seal. It is a common problem with the 22R series they leak and the oil collects on parts you can't see easily. That's a lot of oil use to be blamed on engine issues and still have it run fine.

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Leaks are most common problem, not engine wear. Most auto stores have a black light dye that you pour in the oil, drive a 100 mi or so Then at night use the black light to look for things that glow. A badly worn engine will have a glowing tail pipe.

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Well it seams that You Tube video I watched titled "change the PCV valve and stop that oil leak" really wasn't a crazy idea after all! I did just that and changed the oil adding a "stop valve seal leaks" oil additive and by golly they stopped the leak and no more black oily mist from the tailpipe in a tankful. Rv is now parked for the winter and we shall see next summer how she does but I'm almost positive it's fixed, will keep my eye on it next year. As that rabbit says,...........That,.......that's all folks,.................

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Glad whatever your problem was - is fixed - or at least gone for now. That being said, there is no way any additive on the planet can stop valve-guide seals from leaking if they are worn out. I kind of wonder what the "principal of operation" is supposed to be? On the same theme - no "oil treatment" is going to cure an engine that burns oil - unless the oil-control rings are sludged up and stuck and the additive has some sort of super detergent in it. Can't say I've seen a sludged up engine in a long time since detergent oil became common place. I know I've had two older Toyota 20Rs apart - a 1976 and a 1978. Both were amazingly clean inside. Now - take a 1965 Chevy that ran its whole life on non-detergent oil - and sometimes you'd find 2" of sludge in the oil-pan and another 1" under the valve covers. With them - so much sludge would build up around the valve springs - the oil would fill up the area and flood the valve -stems. The oil would leak like crazy down the valve stems since the older Chevys had no seals at all on the exhaust valves and none on the intake valve-stems either (not even when new). Foreign cars like Toyotas and Datsuns were some of the first here in the USA to have positive-control valve-stem seals. That or 1960 John Deere 1010 tractors (sort of a Deere experiment).

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I have it parked right now with fingers crossed and shall see in Sept. when we fire it up again for a short road trip if she still looses oil. These mail seals you talk about how do they leak oil if no drips are under the Rv? Do they allow oil to blow by? How do you loose so much oil without blue smoke, weird.

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I have had toyos sludge up.

it does not take much for a toyo to sludge up.

Toyo design has changed for the worse in the last 15 years.

the oil ports are narrower to raise temp for cleaner emissions but in turn degrades the oil.

any neglected engine will sludge, your best bet is to change oil often with Dino oil, or use a synthetic if you are lazy like me.

I have had 90 v6 camry with sludge, 2002 corolla with sludge, 89 v6 with sludge,

even my buddies brand new corolla in 2003, he never changed oil and it sludged.

OP, good news, pls keep us posted, if that worked for ya then it will help other rv'ers too, as most our fleet sits most of the year.

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I have had toyos sludge up.

it does not take much for a toyo to sludge up.

Toyo design has change for the worse in the last 15 years.

the oil ports are narrower to raise temp for cleaner emissions but in turn degrades the oil.

any neglected engine will sludge, you best bet is to change oil often with Dino oil, or use a synthetic if you lazy like me.

I have had 90 v6 camry with sludge, 2002 corolla with sludge, 89 v6 with sludge,

even my buddies brand new corolla in 2003, he never changed oil and it sludged.

OP, good news, pls keep us posted, if that worked for ya then it will help other rv'ers too, as most our fleet sits most of the year.

That's says to me that somebody is not changing the oil much, using crappy oil, or never driving more then 10 minute trips. I just has a 1987 Suburban (diesel) engine apart with 480,miles and it was absolutely clean everywhere. Same with the 1977 20R Toyota I took apart recently. Sludge ought to be a thing of the past for any vehicle that reaches operating temp and gets oil changes. Engines run so clean now - I don't even know where the "sludge" would come from. Back in 70s, and earlier - it was common to take the head off an engine at 60,000 miles just to remove carbon. Another thing of the past. My overall point is - I have not seen any modern engines with sludge that have been properly taken care off. Now - get some old person's car in an urban area that only gets driven 1/2 mile a day - and maybe. Cars like that have more wear at 30K miles then others have at 300K miles.

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Toyota settled a class action law suit in 2007 to repair 2.5 million vehicles damaged from engine sludge ranging from 1997 to 2005. To me those qualify as newer engines. Don't know if it effects our older ones but it certainly does happen

Linda S

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So how would sludge allow this motor to send almost a quart through the tailpipe every tank full? It never smoked, maybe a puff of blue when started cold and that's it. No one commented on how just changing the PCV valve could solve this mystery but I'm telling you I changed that and the oil using 10W40 and the "stop seal leaks" additive and in the tankful I drove my last week in Calf. I noticed no more black sooty mist coming out of the tailpipe that would leave a black ring on your hand and no more oil usage. Now just maybe when we return to take a fall trip to Zion, Bryce and Grand Canyon Nat. parks we will see if this simple fix really works and I'll be sure to comment but for now she is parked till Sept.

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No one commented because no one understands. That's because changing a PCV shouldn't have that much of an effect. None of this is meant to be an insult and I don't want you take offense at it, but you'll take it how you take it.

I don't personally know you. You're a guy on the internet. I can't confirm A. your actual oil usuage B. whether or not you noticed smoke out the tailpipe C. whether you noticed oil puddles on the ground.

We're taking your word for it, because that's what we do around here and you certainly seem to have your act together.

The fact is that with the amount of oil you were losing, it's hard to believe there wasn't a giant plume of smoke coming out your tailpipe, or a large puddle of oil under the engine. It's also hard to believe replacing a pcv and throwing what some would call "snake oil" into your engine would take care of that kind of oil consumption. A small amount, sure. But not a quart every tank of gas.

So all we can do is take your word for what you've experienced. We can't explain it, however, because it doesn't really make sense to us. But what counts are results. If you had the problems you had, did the work you did, and now the problems are gone, how can I argue with that? But I'm afraid I can't comment on how that stuff worked, other than my comments of "it shouldn't have".

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A bad PCV CAN UNDER CERTAIN CIRCUMSTANCES cause pressure to build up in the crankcase. The pressure comes from blow by during combustion.

The pressure can oil to blow past the front, rear crankshaft seals, dipstick and even past the rings.

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Linda S is from the same part of Calif. and has seen my rig last year before this problem and knows me enough to assure you I'm 100% mentally ok. I'm not offended but perplexed as much as you experts are. Your right in saying the snake oil and PCV valve should not have worked and there should have been a Blue Angels style trail of smoke and a puddle under the motor but results don't lie and neither do I when I tell you I have had no blue smoke trails nor puddles under this rig. A little oil sweat around the valve cover yes,........... normal with 73,000 miles right? With the main seal gone does it burn oil blue or just out the pipe as a mist like I have had before I addressed this oil usage? I really can't tell you at this moment the oil usage is stopped permanently but hope it is! In the tankful I ran after the change of oil, the additive added and PCV valve changed I noticed a drastic drop in oil usage as in the dipstick level did not alter, also no black sooty mist out the pipe. The rig is parked as I'm out of the country till Sept. when we all shall see if this was a quick temp. fix or permanent. Till then all we can do is speculate and discuss this. I do thank you for your opinions and suggestions. If a tear down is avoided through these simple measures than good for me and worth a try to you out there, no? I spent $25 on the additive and PCV valve, if that fixed it I saved hundreds! I'll tell you I was so troubled by this oil usage coming from Louisiana to Calif. having to have extra quarts of oil in the rv and adding at every gas fill up that I was expecting a main engine repair. I got online and looked up "valve seal leakage" repair videos and there was a nutty guy promoting the wonders of just replacing a $5 PCV valve that may save you hundreds in repairs so before tearing into that motor try this and so I did. I also shopped at the Oreilys Auto parts store and looked for a valve seal stop leak product and applied that $21 a quart to my oil change with 10w40 oil and it worked for that tankful before parking it for the winter and summer 2016 so we will see in Sept. if it was permanent. I have a friend starting it and taking it for a spin around the block once a month to keep things lubed, meanwhile I'll keep the fingers crossed.

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Toyota settled a class action law suit in 2007 to repair 2.5 million vehicles damaged from engine sludge ranging from 1997 to 2005. To me those qualify as newer engines. Don't know if it effects our older ones but it certainly does happen

Linda S

Yes, and not a single pickup truck was involved. Toyota blamed the problem on high heat and lack of maintenance. True or not, I don't know. I tend to believe Toyota since a modern selling point of newer vehicles is extended time between oil-changes. GM recalled many of their own cars, SUVs as well as Suzukis to reprogram the computer algorithm codes so oil change warning lights came on sooner. What ever the issue was - it was "blip on the screen" compared to all the cars, trucks, and engines out there.

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So how would sludge allow this motor to send almost a quart through the tailpipe every tank full? It never smoked, maybe a puff of blue when started cold and that's it. No one commented on how just changing the PCV valve could solve this mystery but I'm telling you I changed that and the oil using 10W40 and the "stop seal leaks" additive and in the tankful I drove my last week in Calf. I noticed no more black sooty mist coming out of the tailpipe that would leave a black ring on your hand and no more oil usage. Now just maybe when we return to take a fall trip to Zion, Bryce and Grand Canyon Nat. parks we will see if this simple fix really works and I'll be sure to comment but for now she is parked till Sept.

I have no idea what was, or what is, wrong with your engine. Sludge can be related too engine-oil consumption in several ways.

One is when it builds up so deep under the valve cover - lube oil sent up there to lubricate the valve-train cannot get back to the oil-pan. This was very common in Chevy V8s in the 60s-70s. In that sort of situation - oil would flood the valve-stems, and oil ran down them, and there was lots of smoke.

Two is when it builds up on the bottom piston rings to badly they get stuck in the ring-groove. This is caused by a combination of lack of maintenance and high heat where the sludge turns to a hard varnish. It can result in blow-by, smoke out the tail pipe, etc.

There is what happens when an engine has sludge, but then it gets worked hard, maybe a better higher detergent oil used, etc. Then hard particles of sludge get in the cylinder-walls and do mechanical damage.

Does your rig have a catalytic converter? I ask because it can hide oil burning and stop smoke from showing out the tailpipe.

In ref to a PCV in a gas engine, or a CDR (Crankcase Depression Valve) - either one can cause seals to leak. Especially rear-main seals. But in your case with no oil on the ground? Sounds like it must be burning it. My 1988 Toyota with a 22RE uses a quart around every four tanks of gas . No smoke, and not catalytic converter. My 2002 Subaru Impreza used a full quart every tank of gas and there was no smoke.

When it comes to a PCV valve actually causing oil-burning? It would either have to be hooked up wrong, or the oil-to-air baffle-separator is missing inside the valve-cover.

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Toyota settled a class action law suit in 2007 to repair 2.5 million vehicles damaged from engine sludge ranging from 1997 to 2005. To me those qualify as newer engines. Don't know if it effects our older ones but it certainly does happen

Linda S

By the way - as that statements reads - it is pretty much BS. Toyota initially received 3400 complaints, not verified engines with sludge problems. They including 3.5 million vehicles only IF they were damaged by sludge. Toyota never agreed to repair 3.5 million vehicles that I know of. They agreed to review cases of any car they sold within that group of 3.5 million. And for those that were verified to be damaged by sludge and also verified to be properly maintained - Toyota took care of the problem. Could be a very small number but I have no idea what it is. And for those that DID have proven problems - how many were cars in urban areas that only got driven on short trips and barely warmed up? I know that auto makers sometimes act like crooks - but on the other hand - sometimes these law-suits and recalls are just plain silly. Like the Ford Explorer and Firestone tire debacle. People driving SUVs like idiots and not checking their tire pressures. Yet - it's all Ford and Firestone's fault.

But yes, at least one thing we agree with. Sludge can happen in any engine under certain conditions. I already stated that previously.

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Oil sludge was an issue with the 3.0 V6 engines but pretty much every one I dealt with the owners did say that they were lax about oil changes it was just the fact that by design they were susceptible to sludging if neglected, not exactly a flaw.

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My rig is a Calif. 1985 500 series with a mandatory Cat converter. How could that cat burn and hide a quart of burning oil every tankful? Possible? Why would adding the additive to repair worn seals($21 a quart!) work together with a new PVC valve as seen on the dipstick(no change in 200 miles) and showed out the tailpipe(no black sooty mist)? This is a mystery for sure and may never be solved and for sure till you hear "The Rest Of The Story" in Sept. when we hit the road again. Till then,.............fingers crossed!

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Well I'm certainly no expert.

But yeah, like I said, results matter.

I've learned "a bit" about engines and how they work, due to all the old vehicles I've owned and the fact that I can't afford to pay someone to keep them running, so I've had to do it myself. But I'm no mechanic.

As far as rubber seals go, they may be salvageable in a newer vehicle, and able to "swell" with the right additive. But if you've ever worked on an old engine and replaced seals, and had them crack apart in your hand...believe me, there was no rejuvenating that seal with any additive. It was done.

On most old engines, nothing will fix leaks other than replacing seals.

I think the whole thing here is that yeah, a clogged pcv will cause pressure and push oil out. But a quart every 2-300 miles?? That's crazy. Then on top of that the fact that you never saw a bunch of blue smoke or a bunch of oil on the ground. I mean if it's losing a quart every tank, it's got to go SOMEWHERE, right?

So it's just confusing. I'll be interested to see how things go when you've got the truck out on the road again next year. I trust what you're telling us. Just don't expect me to explain it :)

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OP, you willingness to try and share the results is what the internet is about. We share our experience, and we learn from it.

Oil usage in an engine is not rocket science or any mystery involved in how engine or why engine using oil. There are only x many ways/variables. Once you go through each of them, you will find root cause.

PCV causing high pressure is pretty common.

My strategy for neglected engines have been to use any cheap synthetic and change before storage. I change the oil only sometimes and skip the filter. Oil is cheap.

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My rig is a Calif. 1985 500 series with a mandatory Cat converter. How could that cat burn and hide a quart of burning oil every tankful? Possible?

I had a 1992 Subaru Loyale 4WD wagon with only 60K miles on it when I bought it. Looked and ran like new. To my surprise - it ate about a full quart of oil every tankful. Not a puff of smoke ever and no leaks. I drove it every winter for 3 years until the exhaust system rotted out. When I took off the Cat - THEN I saw smoke out the tailpipe. I'm surprised it did not plug the Cat - but it didn't. So yes, it has to be possible. I also had a 1985 Toyota truck (not an RV) for many years. It had the carbed 2.4 and a four speed trans. Great running truck but ate oil like a pig. No leaks. Never saw a puff a smoke and it too had a Cat on it. Same with that 2002 Subaru Impreza I got rid recently. Not a sign of smoke but an awful oil eater.

The new Cats are different then the old ones so I don't know if they are easier to plug, or harder to plug.

Back to the PCV valve - it has no access to raw oil and can't go bad and suck oil out of your engine unless it is somehow hooked up wrong. It can cause the crankcase to pressurize instead of have a slight vacuum and that can cause seal leakage. Now - if your engine was sludged up and oil got so high a level inside your valve-cover that the PCV WAS sitting in liquid oil - then it could suck it out like a vacuum cleaner.

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My rig is a Calif. 1985 500 series with a mandatory Cat converter. How could that cat burn and hide a quart of burning oil every tankful? Possible? Why would adding the additive to repair worn seals($21 a quart!) work together with a new PVC valve as seen on the dipstick(no change in 200 miles) and showed out the tailpipe(no black sooty mist)? This is a mystery for sure and may never be solved and for sure till you hear "The Rest Of The Story" in Sept. when we hit the road again. Till then,.............fingers crossed!

Well considering the oil that got dumped in your cat I'm guessing when you get back you will need a new one. Not cheap in California.

Linda S

Yes I will attest to the fact that Tom is a very sane sensible guy. I'm perfectly willing to wait until he gets back and tests out his fix to see if it really did the trick.

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A little oil sweat around the valve cover yes,........... normal with 73,000 miles right?

By the way, this is really easy to fix on this engine with a valve cover gasket and half-moon gasket replacement. At 73,000 miles I wouldn't necessarily say it's normal, but with a 30 year old engine, yes. Rubber seals are hardened and cracked and not holding back oil anymore.

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