Soaked & Rotting

[Ctgriffi]

Well, I shot an emaill off to Winnebago too, to see if anybody there can help with this question.

I pulled this part off months ago and didn't realize it had a front/back at the time. To my mind, it seems like the right-hand side (with the extra pocket-cavity built into it) probably faces front...

[Ctgriffi]

I did get a response back from support at Winnebago: A helpful guy named "Bill" said that he looked through all the old plans and talked to several guys in their shop, and nobody had a definitive answer about the orientation of that part; one guy mentioned that it didn't really matter. So, maybe the asymmetrical cross-section (not a phrase you hear every day!) was just a result of the manufacturing process. Moving on...

[MaineErik]

Seems to me that having the open end of that trim piece (side closest to your thumb in the photo) face rearward would make the most sense - hopefully water would not get in that far but if it did I'd want it to hit the side without a catch.  

I'm in the process of doing everything you are doing on our Itasca - it's got a metal frame at least but will otherwise be a similar project.  Thanks for your updates. 

[pinkflydxx]

I am in the process of repairing / replacing the floor/bed area of the cabover of my 91 Warrior.  When I took out channel that you showed in the picture, the orientation is that the part nearest your thumb went towards the front of the vehicle.

[Ctgriffi]

37 minutes ago, pinkflydxx said:

I am in the process of repairing / replacing the floor/bed area of the cabover of my 91 Warrior.  When I took out channel that you showed in the picture, the orientation is that the part nearest your thumb went towards the front of the vehicle.

Awesome, thanks so much for mentioning that! That definitely helps and confirms what I was thinking.

[pinkflydxx]

As I am replacing the cabover bed floor, I also found that the floor is a "composite" of materials.  It looks like there originally was a thin luan material on the bottom, then a layer of 1" x 3" framing filled with styrofoam insulation material, then covered with another thin luan material, and finally a plastic sheet. 

It also appears that this floor was built / designed as a single composite component to make up the floor.  It also appears to extend to under the cantilevered sidewalls of the cabover area.

I am considered replacing the entire composite structure with a single piece of 3/4 plywood, along with some 1" framing material where the channel you pictured earlier is located.

I am wondering how you did your flooring and/or how you can rebuild the single floor component in order to get it underneath of the sidewalls.  Do you have to take off the exterior trim in that area and bring it up underneath or do you have a technique to position under both sidewalls?

Thanks

[Ctgriffi]

8 hours ago, pinkflydxx said:

...I am wondering how you did your flooring and/or how you can rebuild the single floor component in order to get it underneath of the sidewalls.  Do you have to take off the exterior trim in that area and bring it up underneath or do you have a technique to position under both sidewalls?

I agree with your assessment of the Warrior cabover construction; it is a single composite structure with all of the elements that you mentioned. I think that, originally, the base of the bed was completely assembled in a factory on a large, flat surface, before being installed.

Honestly, there's probably a ton of different way to approach the rebuild, and I don't know that mine is the right/best way. A lot of it will depend on the materials, time and $$$ you have available, along with the tools and skills that you already possess. (If you haven't already, try to make sure your roof and front window are sealed up nice and tight, before beginning!)

That said... here's the solution that I'm currently running with, along with some general notes:

• Demo everything down to the bare, fiberglass skin of the bed platform. As best you can, scrape away all the residual wood and glue, vacuum the dust, and clean the surfaces. Take pictures of everything, from different angles, as you go along. Save every part that you might possibly reuse—or need to duplicate. Keep a few screws from each section or area and label them so you know what size/type to use on the rebuild. (I'm using mostly exterior deck screws and some stainless sheet metal screws.)
• Scrape and wire brush all the metal structural pieces: light-gauge steel angle-irons on the left and right (base to sidewall), upper and lower aluminum pieces that clamp/join the fiberglass skin. Prime, paint, and set 'em aside.
• Some people have gone the all-plywood route, but I chose to try and mimic the original 1x grid frame that supports the mattress and sleeper(s). The manufacturer used standard 3/4" thick lumber, which was laminated below and above with luan so that it ended up being exactly 1" high. (You'll need that same height dimension to fit the new frame snuggly under the sidewalls—and, yes, you'll need to remove the outside corner trim and screws to get those outer frame boards in place.)
• I built my grid, piece-by-piece, installing them one at a time with clamps, lots of waterproof, polyurethane adhesive and screws. To create the necessary 1" height, I opted to use 1 x 6 southern yellow pine with 1/4" plywood laminated on top, and each assembled piece got a few heavy coats of primer before installation. I love my Kregs jig, so I'm also using quite a few pocket holes to join various parts together and add strength.
• Side note: my Warrior had a triangular piece of sheet metal, laid flat under the bed frame, on each side of the cab entrance semicircle. One edge of each triangle was screwed to the cab roof, while the perpendicular edge was attached to the top of the short wall that juts out behind each cab door. Both pieces were trashed (rusted away) on mine, so I replaced them with new primed/painted sheet metal, after cutting them to size with tin snips.
• Another side note: Successfully gluing and fastening these 1" grid pieces in place requires that the fiberglass skin be supported somehow from underneath (otherwise, it's just flopping around and flexing—not good). I've had a hard time figuring out how to best manage this (on a sloped, gravel driveway!), but I can tell you that you'll need some scrap 2x4s and 2x6s, extra plywood, and probably a couple of ladders, etc to create some kind of scaffolding outside.
• Yet another side note: the three boards that surround the semicircle cab entrance can be a little tricky but shouldn't be too difficult, if you're any good with a jigsaw. Hold/clamp the board in place along the opening and scribe the underside with a pencil, following the curve around the opening. Cut, sand and install.
• Once the frame is completely built (getting close!) and the aluminum seam-joints are installed up over the windshield, I will glue 1" foam board into all of the "spaces" within the grid, install the left and right angle-irons, and then laminate a single 48" x 80-1/2" piece of 1/4" plywood across the top of the entire structure.
• That'll almost finish the project for me. I'm also going to recarpet the little, curved walls that frame the opening between cab/coach; those lightweight plywood pieces had to be pulled loose for the rebuild, and they're a little worse for the wear. Plus, they're still covered with the original "aqua" carpet, and I want all that stuff gone!

[pinkflydxx]

Thanks for the details on the bed reconstruction.  I completed mine this weekend.  I did not demo the floor down to the fiberglass skin, but the wood frame under the sidewalls and across the aluminum seam joints were almost completely rotted, along with some of the luan top and bottom layers of the composite floor.  The U-section and the foam were in very good shape so I did not have to rebuild them. The two pieces that were used on the aluminum seam were plywood and in such bad condition that I could literally crumble them with my hands.  They were so bad I can't believe that they held us up as long as they did.

I replaced the frame pieces under the sidewalls with pressure treated wood, along with the 2 wood pieces that joined with the aluminum seam / span piece.  I used self tapping screws through the exterior trim to connect all of these to the sidewall metal framing..  I was pleasantly surprised by the fact that the sidewalls have a metal frame for support - one less rotted wood replacement required. 

One thing to note - and someone noted it in cabover bed rebuild - the seam joint reassembly is not an easy task.  I had two friends helping hold everything in place and putting it all together, and even then it was not easy..  Maybe there is some other "trick" to doing it (maybe gluing the fiberglass skin to the boards), but if you are going to disassemble this joint, plan ahead on how you are going to put it back together.

After getting everything in place, I put a layer of luan over the top of it all, and used the sidewall angles and top of the aluminum seam piece to screw it down, and put a few more screws along the coach edge and u-section.  Finally, I put a piece of 3/4 birch plywood on top of the angles to help distribute the weight over a larger area instead of on the seam itself and to use the sidewall metal frames to help support the weight on the cabover floor area.  In using the plywood, I gave up the use of the U-section, but after owning this RV for 3.5 years, I realized that we really have never removed it, so it was not a loss for us.

All in all, it was not as bad as I thought it would be, but one that you need to pay attention to how the pieces come out, AND putting together a workable plan of reassembly.

[Ctgriffi]

14 hours ago, pinkflydxx said:

Thanks for the details on the bed reconstruction.  I completed mine this weekend...

That was fast—way to go! Glad you came up with a solution that worked for you. I'm definitly looking forward to getting mine done, hitting the road again sometime soon.

[Ctgriffi]

This evening I did some prep work to get ready for the tricky part—installing the final boards, along with the upper and lower seam joiner. I've got the outside braced securely, and I did some test-fitting with the various pieces. Everything feels pretty good, except that I've got a lot of excess fiberglass on the driver's side front corner. As you can see in the photo, it creates a hump that's almost 3/4" high, which could make things difficult. I'm not liking that at all... need to figure it out before I start the gluing/screwing.

Anybody know what could be causing this or how I can correct it?

 

 

Edited August 17, 2016 by Ctgriffi

[pinkflydxx]

Upon reassembly, mine was in similar condition.  I tried to alleviate some of the "excess" by loosening (not removing completely) some of the screws that were in the trim and screwed into the metal frame in the sidewalls on both sides before tightening down the aluminum spanner pieces together.  My thought was to allow the fiberglass skin the opportunity to be "squeezed" into the area between the trim and the frame boards under the sidewalls when I did reassemble/screw together the aluminum spanner pieces.  Then after I tightened down the aluminum spanner pieces together, the fiberglass skin more or less went into place very well - at least no noticeable "puckering" of the fiberglass skin.  Then I re-tightened the screws in the trim (attached to the metal sidewall frame).

[Ctgriffi]

On August 17, 2016 at 7:56 PM, pinkflydxx said:

Upon reassembly, mine was in similar condition.  I tried to alleviate some of the "excess" by loosening (not removing completely) some of the screws that were in the trim and screwed into the metal frame in the sidewalls on both sides before tightening down the aluminum spanner pieces together...

Great tip, thank you! Initially, I was worried that some of the adhesive I had in that area would prevent things from moving at all, but I was able to successfully shift the extra material.

And, I finally got the seam back together, nice and flat, glued and screwed to the new frame, and it all looks pretty good and feels solid (not an easy task, for one guy). I'll try to post a photo or two of my progress, at some point. For now, I've attached a top-view sketch of "the plan" that I roughed out about a year ago and, more or less, executed.  

Next, I need to get my new insulation board installed, and then cover it all with some 1/4" or 1/2" ply.

Edited August 23, 2016 by Ctgriffi

[bicoastal eric]

I've saved a floor by using fiberglass and epoxy resin. 

Who's to say what's doing it "right" 

If you mean doing it as original, know that they didn't make it entirely out of aluminum because of cost, not because its right or better. #1 seal exterior thoroughly #2 reinforce interior #3 enjoy

[MaineErik]

I rebuilt our berth last week, took 2 days to tear it apart and put it back together.  Not bad at all!  I meant to take photos of all the steps but of course I forgot to take the first photo and then kept forgetting to take subsequent ones.  I tore the right 2/3 down to the Al skin (the left 1/3 wasn't perfect but it was good enough, still solid).  I supported the bottom with some 2x lumber, plywood, and a set of ladders as scaffolding.  I used 5 tubes of construction adhesive to rebuilt the composite structure.  Layer one was 1/4" plywood, then 3/4" plywood & foamboard (I recycled the original foam), topped but a layer of 1/8" wallboard.  Let it cure for the recommended 24hr period.  And voila, good as new!  Drove it 450miles to NH and back this weekend and it worked like a charm
1/4" plywood down already: 
3/4" plywood and foam: 

1/8" wallboard and clamps annndddd some weight to get it all adhered correctly!:

Final product is ready for Martha Stewart: 

A few more final touches still need to be finished but the structural stuff is all good to go now, yahoo! 

Edited August 29, 2016 by MaineErik

[Back East Don]

25 minutes ago, MaineErik said:

1/8" wallboard and clamps annndddd some weight to get it all adhered correctly!

I love the improvised clamping method.  Use what you got right?

[Ctgriffi]

18 hours ago, MaineErik said:

... I used 5 tubes of construction adhesive to rebuilt the composite structure.  Layer one was 1/4" plywood, then 3/4" plywood & foamboard (I recycled the original foam), topped but a layer of 1/8" wallboard. 

The final product looks really good; I never thought of using a sheet of wall paneling for the top layer, but it's pretty snazzy! I'm also super-envious of your two-day build time, which makes me look like the slowest repairman of all time...

Anyway, as promised, here are a few photos of my rebuild as I get ready to laminate the final piece of ply across the whole shebang. (Lighting wasn't great for most of these shots, but you'll get the idea.)

 

[MaineErik]

On 8/30/2016 at 11:56 AM, Ctgriffi said:

I'm also super-envious of your two-day build time, which makes me look like the slowest repairman of all time...

Well I followed the git'er done method.  Yours is truly more a work of craftsmanship!  Do you have construction adhesive in there too?  

[Ctgriffi]

I tend to go a little crazy-with-the-details on most projects, which can be a nightmare when you own a 25 year-old RV!  

Yeah, I do have a lot of construction adhesive in there too—probably pretty close to 5 tubes, like you mentioned earlier, with another ~2 tubes still needed to fasten the ply down.

[Ctgriffi]

Finally got this project done, so we could do a little trip this weekend. Photos show some of my prep work on a great piece of 1/2" ply I found at Meek's, along with our eventual campsite at "Shadow Rock Park," Forsyth MO.

 

[MaineErik]

Did you reuse the small section that fits into the 'U'?  The stock one sits on top of the 'U', it's 5/8" plywood with a thinner pad on top.  And I have discovered it to be VERY uncomfortable!!!  The pads are so low density that the outside sleeper essentially has their hips higher than head or feet.  I've been thinking of using some metal brackets and building a new insert that would sit flush or closer to flush with the surrounding U section, then finding some new pad material more similar in thickness to the surrounding pad.  I can't imagine that anyone finds the OEM setup - it makes for a horrible night sleep, unless you are the lucky duck who gets to sleep near the front window.  

[zulandio]

8 hours ago, MaineErik said:

Did you reuse the small section that fits into the 'U'?  The stock one sits on top of the 'U', it's 5/8" plywood with a thinner pad on top.  And I have discovered it to be VERY uncomfortable!!!  The pads are so low density that the outside sleeper essentially has their hips higher than head or feet.  I've been thinking of using some metal brackets and building a new insert that would sit flush or closer to flush with the surrounding U section, then finding some new pad material more similar in thickness to the surrounding pad.  I can't imagine that anyone finds the OEM setup - it makes for a horrible night sleep, unless you are the lucky duck who gets to sleep near the front window.  

Mine was like this when I bought it and it's a pretty slick setup. You'll have to excuse the mess I turned it into my closet and am in process of replacing the carpet with linoleum so everything is up there. It has rails it slides back on and another piece of plywood with two cushions. 

[MaineErik]

8 hours ago, zulandio said:

Mine was like this when I bought it and it's a pretty slick setup. You'll have to excuse the mess I turned it into my closet and am in process of replacing the carpet with linoleum so everything is up there. It has rails it slides back on and another piece of plywood with two cushions. 

Thanks for trying but I'm totally not seeing the small sliding section in those photos - so does your sliding section still have an increased height relative to the surrounding U (not counting foam)?  

[Back East Don]

17 hours ago, MaineErik said:

Did you reuse the small section that fits into the 'U'?  The stock one sits on top of the 'U', it's 5/8" plywood with a thinner pad on top.  And I have discovered it to be VERY uncomfortable!!!  The pads are so low density that the outside sleeper essentially has their hips higher than head or feet.  I've been thinking of using some metal brackets and building a new insert that would sit flush or closer to flush with the surrounding U section, then finding some new pad material more similar in thickness to the surrounding pad.  I can't imagine that anyone finds the OEM setup - it makes for a horrible night sleep, unless you are the lucky duck who gets to sleep near the front window.  

I too found the mattress thickness and density pretty uncomfortable.  We ended up buying a queen size memory foam topper and a zippered cover.  We only had to cut about 4 inches lengthwise and sewed the same on the cover so it would fit tighter.  We would still be using this if I didn't chase water leaks for a couple years.  This year I ended up replacing the topper and the old foam with a 6" memory foam mattress.  I intend to do the same as Jim and just get rid of the pass through to the cab as we never use it anyway.  I just don't want to have to cut the mattress we bought as we put it in one of those sealed allergy covers.

I'm the one who sleeps on the outside and with 6" of firm memory foam, I don't feel the raised plywood at all.  Your mileage may vary as I am reminded of the story of the Princess and the pea.

[Totem]

just curious why the cab pass through is even there at all..  perhaps to move fridge out etc?

[MaineErik]

I apparently am a princess!  Ha, thanks Don.  
The cab pass through is SUPER useful for our family, in fact I probably use the camper door to get in and out more often then the driver's door.  And on the road we always play a round of musical chairs between the passenger seat and those in the back (don't worry, the driver stays put!).  So removing the passthrough via a non-cut mattress is not an option.  But maybe all I need to do is replace the super soft foam with something firmer.  

[Totem]

12 minutes ago, MaineErik said:

I apparently am a princess!  Ha, thanks Don.  
The cab pass through is SUPER useful for our family, in fact I probably use the camper door to get in and out more often then the driver's door.  And on the road we always play a round of musical chairs between the passenger seat and those in the back (don't worry, the driver stays put!).  So removing the passthrough via a non-cut mattress is not an option.  But maybe all I need to do is replace the super soft foam with something firmer.  

we do this also, but never need to remove the passthrough. i have moved it before though when trying to move large things around inside.

[Back East Don]

46 minutes ago, MaineErik said:

I apparently am a princess!  Ha, thanks Don.  
The cab pass through is SUPER useful for our family, in fact I probably use the camper door to get in and out more often then the driver's door.  And on the road we always play a round of musical chairs between the passenger seat and those in the back (don't worry, the driver stays put!).  So removing the passthrough via a non-cut mattress is not an option.  But maybe all I need to do is replace the super soft foam with something firmer.  

The option I initially was going to employ was to some 4" wide 1/4" steel bolted up using some 3/8" T nuts above to fasten a bracket the so that the plywood could be cut so it would fit flush.  You could then probably find an upholstery shop to cut the mattress and make covers.  I just didn't because I don't need to remove it. 

And the comment is only if you can still feel the bump if you add a topper or replace the entire thing with a 6" memory foam mattress.  So judgement is reserved.

[zulandio]

7 hours ago, MaineErik said:

Thanks for trying but I'm totally not seeing the small sliding section in those photos - so does your sliding section still have an increased height relative to the surrounding U (not counting foam)?  

I'm fairly certain New World did this when they but it. They were going for a high class model I'm assuming. Perfect for Princesses lol! 

Here are some better pictures to get an idea. It's a solid piece of wood half the depth of the overhead. With another piece of plywood to level it out making it a level surface all through. The slides allow the pass through access by sliding the whole thing back. 

[Totem]

ahh but couldnt a real princess feel the crease line from that?

[Jaunt]

awesome repair work.

[MaineErik]

6 hours ago, Totem said:

ahh but couldn't a real princess feel the crease line from that?

Perhaps, but only if the princess lied in the middle of the bed - probably better than the setup most of the berths have.  Thanks for the better photos Zulandio.
I still like the idea of some flush setup...

[Ctgriffi]

On September 19, 2016 at 1:27 PM, MaineErik said:

Did you reuse the small section that fits into the 'U'?  

(Sorry, lost track of this thread, I guess.) I actually did keep the U, yes. Mine's not all that uncomfortable, although I do have a topper across the entire bed that helps. At some point, I guess I might buy a good memory foam mattress and deconstruct/replace the entire thing up there. I did remove the covers to wash 'em, and the original foam pieces are not too shabby.

I know a lot of people just build right over the whole thing, but my wife and I like it... when it's flipped up and out of the way, it's much easier to traverse between cab/coach while chugging down the road (like, if one of us is thirsty or needs an emergency sandwich!). It's still not easy for a big guy closing on 40 years old, however—I'm sure I wouldn't even attempt if I were pushing 50 or more.

[Totem]

1 hour ago, Ctgriffi said:

(Sorry, lost track of this thread, I guess.) I actually did keep the U, yes. Mine's not all that uncomfortable, although I do have a topper across the entire bed that helps. At some point, I guess I might buy a good memory foam mattress and deconstruct/replace the entire thing up there. I did remove the covers to wash 'em, and the original foam pieces are not too shabby.

I know a lot of people just build right over the whole thing, but my wife and I like it... when it's flipped up and out of the way, it's much easier to traverse between cab/coach while chugging down the road (like, if one of us is thirsty or needs an emergency sandwich!). It's still not easy for a big guy closing on 40 years old, however—I'm sure I wouldn't even attempt if I were pushing 50 or more.

at 42, I reach up grab the insert inside of the "U" as a ledge and swing myself into the cockpit passenger seat dukes of hazard style; often scaring the %#%$@# out of my wife and then shove sandwich in her face. Never gets old. I'm 230 lbs so it rocks the boat.

now getting up and out of the passenger seat on the other hand... thats a bit more complicated and resembles watching Chris Farley attempting to crawl up onto the street out of a man hole cover for me.. LOL

[bicoastal eric]

We never remove the cut out when going from cab to coach. The key is to get you knee in the cab seat. And reverse going back into the cab. Get your knee into the cab seat and go from there. 

[Derek up North]

Or even simpler: open the cab door, walk a few steps and open the coach door!