TikiShack Posted May 20, 2014 Share Posted May 20, 2014 I have a 1992 spirit. Going to Mexico for months. Ol girl has 125k. I know that anything below 160 degrees is good.I do not have the time or money to do a full instrument package.My toy has a OEM transmission cooler, out front of the radiator.Auto zone has one for 45 bucks. I want to add it to the existing cooler. Or at least replace it with one 3 times the sizeLooks like it will take a day to pull the headlights and grille. I assume I'll have to add fittings that are not on the OEM unit and not included with the oversize after market unit.Looks like a PITA.Suggestions or recommendations?PS I Did a search and could not find this info on this site. Just sayin' Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Donnie Posted May 20, 2014 Share Posted May 20, 2014 Tiki, there are 2 basic types of trans. coolers.. One is a serpentine style affair with the tubes running back & forth within a network of aluminum fins.to provide an increase in the air contacting the tubes. Some off shore tubing in this style cooler is just an open tube for the oil to flow thru. The better made serpentine coolers contain a swirling insert inside the tube to force the fluid to contact the outer walls of the tube as it passes thru. I have NO IDEA what you are getting at your supplier....A mfg. name would be helpful.... The other style of cooler is a passive design that looks sort of like your car radiator.. The way it works : when your fluid is cold it passes over the top of the fins & is not cooled, but as the fluid warms up & becomes thinner, it will flow down thru the tubes and the passing air will cool it...These are called Header style coolers,,,,,,,,,,,the fore mentioned are called serpentine style. Most, but not all coolers are supplied with the hardware to mount them & connect the lines. A larger cooler is a PITA, but worth it...Try to find the mfg. of the cooler that you are looking at & one of us will rate it...there are other tranny guys on here besides me...... This subject can get more involved, but I just provided a basic 101 theory of operation & tried to answer your question..HTH, Donnie Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Derek up North Posted May 20, 2014 Share Posted May 20, 2014 The other style of cooler is a passive design that looks sort of like your car radiator.. The way it works : when your fluid is cold it passes over the top of the fins & is not cooled, but as the fluid warms up & becomes thinner, it will flow down thru the tubes and the passing air will cool it...These are called Header style coolers ... Do you have the manufacturer and P.N. for such a cooler. I'd like to read more about it's method of operation. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Maineah Posted May 20, 2014 Share Posted May 20, 2014 The basic design is the same as any radiator hot in the top cool at the bottom. It sounds kind of funny cooling a trans with hot water but the trans cooler is in the bottom of the radiator and that is where the coolest water is. An air cooled unit works the same way so the best set up is a series plumbed system. The hottest trans fluid is the top pipe connected to the trans it goes to the rad cooler then to the top of the aux cooler and returned to the trans through the lowest pipe on the transmission. There is little pressure on the system because it is open ended it just dumps the fluid back into the transmission pan don't dead end the system though because the pressure will climb to excess of 125 PSI. An extra cooler is a good investment. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Donnie Posted May 21, 2014 Share Posted May 21, 2014 Derek, Hayden is the most popular name in serpentine coolers. BUT to answer your question........the cooler that I mostly used in HD applications, that you asked about is made by Tru Cool.. You should be able to find info on them on line if they are still in business....there are others too, but that is the one that I used. These are great in northern climates where you don't need the cooler to be cooling the fluid if you are in a cold climate.... I think that B&M may have a similar design, just never liked their products.............HTH....Donnie Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zero Posted May 21, 2014 Share Posted May 21, 2014 The tube that passes though the radiator is also a transmission "warmer." Help warm up the trans fluid in cold weather. Some big aftermarket air-coolers come with thermostats to stop the transmission fluid from passing through when it's too cold. Not likely to be an issue in Mexico, I guess. All my coolers here in the NE have thermostat-controlled bypasses. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TikiShack Posted May 21, 2014 Author Share Posted May 21, 2014 Guys, the cooler I am speaking of is a Hayden 404, recommended on this forum.I understand the basic functions of oil coolers. I need to know if I'm better off to run the cooler in series with the one I have, and what obstacles I have to mounting and hook up.I am a full timer and live in a 35 ft pace arrow motorhome and I added an additional external transmission oil cooler six years ago, that has its own line that opens at 170 degrees, and Devale thermostatic triggered forced air fan, mounted transverse under the frame. I have input and output temp gauges. It works like a champ. It cost me a couple hundred and a lot of time to install.I do not want to do a similar setup on my Toyota.I just want to cool the oil down. I've never heard of a transmission that is running too cool! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TikiShack Posted May 21, 2014 Author Share Posted May 21, 2014 The Name Hayden is on the package but it is sold through Advance or autozone under a house brand name as well. Imperial? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TikiShack Posted May 21, 2014 Author Share Posted May 21, 2014 And! Will I have to remove the headlight and grille to mount it? This seems the case as there is little room to work or mount radiator ties. Is there enough pressure to run the two coolers in series? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Maineah Posted May 21, 2014 Share Posted May 21, 2014 Guys, the cooler I am speaking of is a Hayden 404, recommended on this forum. I understand the basic functions of oil coolers. I need to know if I'm better off to run the cooler in series with the one I have, and what obstacles I have to mounting and hook up. I am a full timer and live in a 35 ft pace arrow motorhome and I added an additional external transmission oil cooler six years ago, that has its own line that opens at 170 degrees, and Devale thermostatic triggered forced air fan, mounted transverse under the frame. I have input and output temp gauges. It works like a champ. It cost me a couple hundred and a lot of time to install. I do not want to do a similar setup on my Toyota. I just want to cool the oil down. I've never heard of a transmission that is running too cool! If you have the small factory cooler remove it and add a large one in it's place no sense having a small all most worthless cooler in line also. . In most cases you are right it is all most impossible for it to be too cold. There are millions of cars and trucks up here in the north country with no oil cooler thermostats. Pressure is not an issue but don't forget to add oil after the install to fill the cooler. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zero Posted May 23, 2014 Share Posted May 23, 2014 If you have the small factory cooler remove it and add a large one in it's place no sense having a small all most worthless cooler in line also. . In most cases you are right it is all most impossible for it to be too cold. There are millions of cars and trucks up here in the north country with no oil cooler thermostats. Pressure is not an issue but don't forget to add oil after the install to fill the cooler. I don't know about the "millions" figure. I've got no stats on that. Where exactly do those stats come from? I know that most HD trucks I've worked on have the thermostats (cold weather bypass) including my 1 ton Ford F350 and my Dodge 3/4 ton. I also know that there are - let's say "many" trucks with no aftermarket coolers at call and do just fine. My point being that the commonality of an aftermarket product does not give us proof of very much. I DO know that when I start my truck up a 10 -20 degrees below 0 F - I like the idea of the engine heat helping to warm the trans and also not having the extra cooler in play. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zero Posted May 23, 2014 Share Posted May 23, 2014 Every new HD pickup I know of with an extra air-exchange trans cooler along with the warming/cooling tube in the radiator has an OEM cooler bypass. Works if flow is a problem or by oil temp. Obviously if you are adding an air cooler to a truck that already has a built-in bypass - you don't need a 2nd one. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zero Posted May 23, 2014 Share Posted May 23, 2014 A few more images of cooler thermostatic bypasses. I'm not sure why they'd be so rare in Maine? My "northeast" in New York has plenty. Not just in trucks either. Many cars and minivans since the 90s have come with them from the factory. My 1998 and 2003 Dodge Grand Caravans both have them from the factory. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Maineah Posted May 23, 2014 Share Posted May 23, 2014 Average motor vehicle be it a car or truck does not have a thermostat. Keeping a Toy home transmission hot enough is far from an issue. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Derek up North Posted May 23, 2014 Share Posted May 23, 2014 I haven't owned 'millions' of cars, vans and LD trucks, but I've never owned a single one where the flow to the automatic transmission fluid cooler was controlled thermostatically. I feel confident that there are millions more the same. But I'm in the South-East (of Canada). For survival in the cold, we have (or can add) all sorts of heaters for the engine, battery or passenger compartment but I've never seen on offered for the ATF. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zero Posted May 23, 2014 Share Posted May 23, 2014 I haven't owned 'millions' of cars, vans and LD trucks, but I've never owned a single one where the flow to the automatic transmission fluid cooler was controlled thermostatically. I feel confident that there are millions more the same. But I'm in the South-East (of Canada). For survival in the cold, we have (or can add) all sorts of heaters for the engine, battery or passenger compartment but I've never seen on offered for the ATF. I suspect many people have them and don't even know it. Dodge has used them OEM on minivans since the early 90s. I only know that because I have two. Ford and GM have used them for years on pickups. Any auto trans MUST have a cooler bypass of some sort. Pressure sensitive, temp sensitive, or both. Oil heated beyond its flash-point is obviously no good for an auto trans or engine. To the converse - oil and parts too cold also is not good. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Maineah Posted May 23, 2014 Share Posted May 23, 2014 If you by pass a cooler you run a real good risk of cooking a transmission in very short order. I have seen coolers by passed because they were leaking the transmission did not make it a full day I used to do motor home transmissions even the big ones years ago more often than not had no extra coolers we did not offer any warranty unless we installed one because they would over heat and cook the oil every single time no exceptions. If there are some it's all about emissions and economy because 5W oil does not need to be heated to flow well. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Boots Posted May 24, 2014 Share Posted May 24, 2014 Hi, My first question is whether you have a temperature guage which measures the temperature as it leaves the tranny. If you don't know that it won't help to add anything. I installed a "tow truck gauge" which is so named because of the higher temperature ranges - most gauges read only to 285 and a towtruck reads to 400 F. I read an article on the net which showed a graph of transmission failures at higher temperatures. Basically if you let your tranny go up above 285 for 30 minutes, you will ruin your transmission. at 400F you have about 2000 miles before failure. Boots Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Derek up North Posted May 24, 2014 Share Posted May 24, 2014 http://www.haydenauto.com/featured%20products-transmission%20and%20engine%20oil%20coolers/content.aspx Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zero Posted May 24, 2014 Share Posted May 24, 2014 If you by pass a cooler you run a real good risk of cooking a transmission in very short order. I have seen coolers by passed because they were leaking the transmission did not make it a full day I used to do motor home transmissions even the big ones years ago more often than not had no extra coolers we did not offer any warranty unless we installed one because they would over heat and cook the oil every single time no exceptions. If there are some it's all about emissions and economy because 5W oil does not need to be heated to flow well. If you have a cooler with NO bypass you can also cook a transmission fast. At auto trans needs to run within a certain temperature range - just like an engine. Most automatic transmissions with torque converters run 250 degrees F when used fairly hard and do fine. Start running 270-280 F and rubber seals start to fail, Some cheaper ATF fluids start to break down, etc. I.e. problems. Automatic transmissions with NO torque converters (like many V6 Toyotas) - or anything else with a lock-up converter when IN lock-up mode - often run 120 -140 degrees all day long. I mentioned the thermostatic bypass simply because they exist and are indeed used by many companies OEM and aftermarket. Not just in trucks either. Many small cars and minivans have flow-bypass valves and thermostatic bypass valves. If we're going to talk about the dangers of having a bypass, or whatever - more specifics are needed. Especially if a fluid-fluid cooler/warmer , or a fluid to air cooler run in series with the former. or . . a system with the former eliminated and just using the fluid-to-air aftermarket cooler. I've seen many aftermarket coolers hooked up in ignorance where the OEM tube in the radiator was eliminated which is an awful setup in just about any situation. Fluid to air coolers like the aftermarket ones are fairly ineffective as compared to the tubes in the radiators. When both are used - it can be an excellent setup - allowing proper trans warm up and extra protection from overheating. I've run trans temp tests in many setups and it's rare to see more then a 20 F degree drop in operating temp when properly adding an aftermarket cooler. Regardless of all this - back to my original point. Thermostat bypass coolers are fairly common now adays. Just because there have been many autos without them - does not mean the bypasses do not exist or do any good. Modern transmissions are lasting a lot longer then the older ones due to many new safeguards and microprocessor-monitored controls. There are many cars with no air-bags. Does that mean air-bags are useless? Same with the many cars and trucks with without fuel injection. Does that mean fuel injection is of no use? I have not been claiming that anyone here needs a thermostat, nor have I claimed anyone here needs anything. Just mentioned that they the thermostat bypass certainly are used now-adays- OEM and aftermarket. Also note that these thermostat controlled bypasses rarely bypass all the oil from the cooler do not create a danger. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zero Posted May 24, 2014 Share Posted May 24, 2014 http://www.haydenauto.com/featured%20products-transmission%20and%20engine%20oil%20coolers/content.aspx Hayden sells thermostat controlled cooler bypasses also. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TikiShack Posted May 24, 2014 Author Share Posted May 24, 2014 You know all this blah blah blah argumentative speculation about temps and thermovalves did nothing for me. None of it was helpful.I was looking for basic procedural info and help adding the cooler.The biggest issue was getting the grille off. Those clips that have to be squeezed and pulled at the same time are the worst Toyota design feature I've seen. Not only can't you reach them, but I don't even see how a special tool would help.It would have been EZ if someone who had experience would have mentioned it is easier if you remove the bumper first.Removal of the bumper, the signal lamps, and associated trim was way easier than the friggin clips from hell.I almost abandoned the project because the Hayden cooler recommended on another post that i ordered was way too big to fit, whether you remove the original or not. If you don't remove the original, high quality plate style cooler, your second one will have to be mounted on the drivers side of the hood latch and will have to be about the same size as the OEM unit. That would be an external dimension of about 8 inches square, max.This is where I almost gave up because Hayden, auto zone, nor Napa has such a small cooler.I don't know about your rig but there just wasn't any other room on the face of the radiator.I almost gave up but realized that in the lower area of the bumper there is lots of room- and holes in the face of it to provide nice air flow.I used multiple zip ties to index the bottom of the cooler to the lower frame of the truck. The top of my new cooler is lashed on one side to an AC condenser line. The new cooler is also stabilized by the cooler hoses themselves.And to the guy that said zip ties are not pro, what is the difference between the little plastic toothpick sized pass through radiator ties included in these kits, and zip ties? My zip ties are twice as thick!I did not want to loose the original cooler. Its plate style design is mirrored by the top Hayden coolers. It works well, considering its tiny sizeMy new cooler will benefit from being away from the radiator and the only thing I may want to do to improve it is add some nylon netting out front to keep insect bodies from plugging bit up.Pics to follow...I did not take any because my hands were oily.Another suggestion ti anyone doing this job is to have a mini tubing cutter on hand to cut the transmission line. The autozone guy loaned me one- its only a couple of inches long...and it saved a ton of time and meant I was able to break the line in a good place without unnecessary bending.Cheers Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zero Posted May 24, 2014 Share Posted May 24, 2014 Getting the front bumper off might be easy with rigs from your area. It can be an awful job with a vehicle from north-eastern areas. The bolts get rusty and some spots are hard to use a cutting torch on. Absolutely nothing "speculative" in what I posted. "Blah-blah" , maybe. I've got an 87 and 88 here. With either - I see no advantage in a cooler install by removing the front bumper. You must see something different. Bumper sits below any area I'd want a cooler. My 88 has a Hayden cooler (that my local NAPA sells). Mounted to the right of the factory cooler. Factory cooler on the left is a 5" X 9" Toyo. Hayden on the right is 7 1/2" X 12 1/2". It was an easy install once I popped out the front grill (which I also found to be easy). Two plastic lock tabs were brittle and broke but an easy fix. NAPA # for the Hayden is ATP 14822. Hayden # for the same is 403. 8" X 13" is the maximum space in that right-hand area, with 2" of depth. Having these two coolers is kind of over-kill for a A43D driven in the NE. WAY overkill for a truck with no torque-converter in play when rolling down the road. But - to each his own. I did not use zip-ties. They don't put the tension in the face-areas that the plastic ties made for the job do. If too much "blah blah" here - just skip over and don't read. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
linda s Posted May 24, 2014 Share Posted May 24, 2014 Well this is Tiki's thread and he does not have an A43D and he does have a locking torque converter. Oh and he's headed to Mexico, not in the north east. I don't have a V6 but it's possible the grille set up and space available are quite different from the 4 banger. While a bunch of miscellaneous info might be interesting to some the focus should be the original posters question. Linda S Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sunnynshare Posted May 24, 2014 Share Posted May 24, 2014 To add to the blah, blah and my youtube count, the one I put in was fairly big, http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B000CIGE9G/ref=oh_details_o00_s00_i00?ie=UTF8&psc=1, and I only removed the grill not the bumper. You can see what I removed and the cooler here https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OfWdoPQRQes. I made some rinka-a-dink metal brackets (that's the "welding" I moan about) and it just went right in. I did have to get a few new plastic clips for the grill but overall the job was very easy. Although I made brackets, that was not necessary. Total time was maybe two hours and it works fine. This is in a 1987 so may not apply. Kim Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TikiShack Posted May 24, 2014 Author Share Posted May 24, 2014 Well this is Tiki's thread and he does not have an A43D and he does have a locking torque converter. Oh and he's headed to Mexico, not in the north east. I don't have a V6 but it's possible the grille set up and space available are quite different from the 4 banger. While a bunch of miscellaneous info might be interesting to some the focus should be the original posters question. Linda S Thank you, Linda. I assumed that this was an ez job. It wasn't. Clearly these rigs are different by year. I'm hesitant to say that my solution was the only one...but in this case there was no room. I assumed that someone could provide insight. I guess I didn't ask the right questions: is, how do you get the grille off? Do you have to remove the bumper? What's the trick to the tabs from hell? I'm proud of my outcome. If I had a 92 v6, I'd think this thread would be useful. Thanks. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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