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Hello. I'm a new member, though I have been a lurker for some time. I am also a member of Ecomodder, and I've used many ideas from there and elsewhere to improve my fuel economy in my '92 Itasca Spirit 21'. I'll preface this by acknowledging that some of my techniques are unorthodox, and some of you may not believe me. I travel quite a lot in this rig, and I generally get well over 18 mpg, usually in the neighborhood of 20. My one tank best is 26.2 (flat ground with stiff tailwind).

I have done aeromods like air dams and side skirts as well as lightening where it fits our style of traveling. I use the usual rolling resistance tricks like keeping the tires at max (64 psi), and using all synthetic lubricants.

But by far the best thing I've done is to install a mileage computer called an MPGuino that works with fuel-injected pre-OBD-II vehicles. Here's the URL: http://ecomodder.com/wiki/index.php/MPGuino It can simultaneously give instantaneous mileage, cumulative mileage, gallons per hour and actual speed (or other parameters that you can specify). The main thing this does is give me real-time feedback on what works and what doesn't to improve mpg. It has changed my driving habits, and brought my mileage from the typical 13 to 15 to where it is now.

My rig is a 3.0 V-6 with automatic. I have found that using my highest gear whenever possible (overdrive with converter locked) will always get me the best mileage. With the accelerator down as far as possible without kickdown at cruising speed will get me about 13.4 mpg at an elevation of less than 1000 feet above sea level. It goes UP as elevations increase. As soon as kickdown occurs, mileage drops to around 9. It is very difficult to get much more than about 13 on flat ground (no tail wind) unless in O/D. I have had no problems with overheating the engine or transmission doing it this way, for tens of thousands of miles.

I found a Master's thesis online regarding aerodynamics of big rigs, that uses fluid dynamics and wind tunnel testing to prove the usefulness of many aeromods. Link: http://publications.lib.chalmers.se/records/fulltext/133659.pdf

Some of you may know that many EFI engines have a fuel cutoff so that when in gear and off throttle the fuel stops flowing, and you get infinitely high fuel mileage during this time. This is averaged into your mpg, obviously. The MPGuino will help you use this feature to best effect. There are also some non-intuitive techniques for acceleration to speed and such that I can talk about if anyone's interested.

If any of you decide to get an MPGuino I may be able to give some tips for installation and calibration.

I have found that slip-streaming trucks doesn't help mileage enough (if at all) to make the dangers worth it. I also drive slower than most of you could tolerate; usually between 47 and 53 mph.

Happy travels!

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I have a 91 Warrior with the V-6 and I read the ecomodder as well.

My thought is to install a front hitch onto the Warrior. The hitch will allow me to have a removable front air dam, in case I ever need a tow. Or put a temporary winch, bike rack, gear locker, etc.

I've also thought about some fairings in front of the air hatches. These would be foam and fiberglass construction similar to kitplane construction.

I also travel primarily in overdrive but often at 60 to 70 mph as I have limited vacation and time is precious. At that speed, I'm seeing around 12 mpg but it varies substantially with prevailing wind.

Do you have some pictures of your improvements?

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There is the key in a nut shell 47-53. The coefficient of drag is directly proportional to speed and increases extensionally with speed.

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Yes, there's little doubt that driving slower does improve mileage, and wind drag increases with the square of the speed. Slowing down probably helps as much as anything except maybe for keeping it in the highest gear as much as possible. I will try to include pictures of a few of my aeromods: front air dam, side skirts, plexiglass wheel opening covers and low profile (LED) clearance lights.

post-7678-0-65453400-1395705085_thumb.jppost-7678-0-98483000-1395705086_thumb.jppost-7678-0-67711800-1395705083_thumb.jppost-7678-0-95651900-1395705087_thumb.jp

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I have a couple of other comments I will add to this thread. I have removed the roof air conditioner, because we didn't ever use it, it weighs a lot, and it sticks up in the wind like a barn door. Instead I installed a couple of solar panels on the roof to supply coach power, and I disconnected the coach batteries from the engine alternator. Now they are charged by the solar panels (and the shore power when we are plugged in). The solar panels generally have no problem keeping up with our needs; interior LED lighting, furnace fan, roof vent fan, TV / DVD and stereo. We tend to go where the weather suits our clothes, avoiding hot and cold places.

I am considering a means to selectively switch off the engine alternator and maintain the truck electrical system with solar electricity. I may need to add a panel to have enough capacity for this. Now, with a 135 watt and a 55 watt panel I can usually get up to 7 amps when it's sunny. I may need more than this to run the fuel pump and engine electrical (ECU etc.). The panels are mounted flat and we are near the 45th parallel. We will get more output as the days get longer and as we travel south. We usually travel during daylight hours only.

Cheers!

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For your alternator, you could add a mode that has the brake light circuit activate it.

What are your side skirts made from? They look like thick lawn edging but that would need some reinforcement.

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Skydancer,

It sounds odd, but I'm not sure what the side skirts are made of. It was a long strip of thick plastic lying beside the freeway, It was 18 inches in width and about 20 feet long. It seemed like it might be some sort of backing that a conveyor belt ran on. It is about 1/4 inch thick and seems like it might be polypropylene or polyethylene, or some sort of thermoplastic. I cut it in half lengthwise and painted it semigloss black. It has plenty of rigidity so that it doesn't need additional support. I think lawn edging could be used for this, but as you said it would probably need some sort of reinforcement.

You might notice that the front spoiler was made from a poly bumper from a car. I found the bumper lying by the roadside also. I'm somewhat of a scrounge...

I'm interested in your comment about a mode in which the alternator is activated by the brake light circuit. Could you give more detail on this?

Thanks!

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Irving,

when an alternator is supplying electricity, its mechanical resistance to the engine movement is in proportion to the amount of electrical current generated.

If you introduce a contactor in series with the alternator positive wire, you can switch the output of the alternator on and off.

Conceivably, you could have two switches in the cab. One would turn the alternator on full time. The second would allow the brake circuit voltage to activate the alternator.

If you let the engine battery drain and subsequently recharge from campsite or home power, you could claim to own a plug-in, hybrid camper!

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Skydancer,

So the brake light circuit would detect when you were braking and turn the alternator on when slowing down, correct? Also, the alternator would aid in engine braking when applying the brakes, sort of like the regenerative braking in a Prius? That sounds pretty good! I was thinking that when the engine was running and the alternator was switched off the solar panels would be switched into the truck battery charging circuit, thus replacing the alternator while driving, keeping the truck battery charged. The brake light idea would add some cool bling and functionality to the setup. I like it! Thanks for getting back to me.

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This is a picture of my MPGuino. I got an assembled unit which came on a printed circuit board, but no box. I got the plastic box at Radio Shack. You might notice that there are 4 wires going to the MPGuino. One goes to power, one to ground, one to a fuel injector signal wire, and the last to the VSS (vehicle speed sensor) wire. It calculates instantaneous mileage by comparing gallons per hour to miles per hour. On the readout, MG is instant MPG, GH is gallons per hour, S is speed, and C is cumulative MPG. There is a calibration feature that converts pulses per second from the VSS wire and the injector signal wire into usable numbers. It's great! It enables a driver to see how his / her actions affect mileage on a real-time basis. I use it for many things, not the least is to tell when the cruise control is about to cause the transmission to kick down a gear when climbing a slight grade or going over a freeway overpass. I can take up the gas pedal and shut off the cruise control, preventing the kick-down. While driving at a slower speed improves mileage, preventing or postponing a kick-down also helps a lot. The MPGunio also provides graphic evidence regarding the "sweet spot" for mileage, which in my case is about 47 MPH, which is the slowest speed that I can reliably run in O/D lockup. I cannot get my mileage as high by running in third, even at much slower speeds.

I recommend this little gadget to anyone who likes to tinker and is after good mileage, regardless of the speed you drive. I know that many people feel obligated to keep up with traffic so as not to be "in the way" of other traffic. I also try not to annoy people by always driving in the slow lane and moving over when possible.post-7678-0-56126400-1395763711_thumb.jp

Edited by Irving Renewal
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I think I've read somewhere, is that vague enough statement :closedeyes:, that the 22re needs about 20 amps to run the engine ECM, fuel pump and ignition

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I've seen something similar; that an EFI fuel pump takes around 7 amps, and an engine computer around 5. That gets it up around 12, without the ignition. So 20 sounds like a good ball park figure. That's a lot for solar panels. My solar controller is only good for 15 amps. Time to upgrade???

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True enough, Derek up North! And, being a hypermiler I hardly ever use my brakes. But the cool factor is compelling! (Actually I do use my brakes occasionally to make a pit stop, or to pick up junk lying beside the road). :)

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Irving,

where did you buy your MPG meter? Some of the Ecomodder links indicated non-availability.

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Skydancer,

I have had mine for a couple of years now. I went to the sites and one is out of stock, another appears to be in England, and the third seems to have some in stock as of a couple of weeks ago. Here is the link: http://mpguino.wiseman.ee/eng

Hope this helps; they are great little gadgets!

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BTW Skydancer, I may be able to give you some advice on installation and calibration, including ball park calibration numbers. If your rig happens to be a 3.0 V-6 with automatic, I may have exact cal numbers for you (or at least very close).

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  • 1 month later...

I am interested in the solar panels, and am planning to do this my Toy. From my understanding, it is best to have a solar panel controller to manage the current flow. The models I have been seeing have a sensor that also measures the temperature of the battery (case) and that is very important, because excess charging (in bright sun light days and no controller) will result in the battery heating, the battery electrolyte boiling off and then battery plate damage results.

From my understanding of solar panels output is about 18 - 19 volts, which ensures the output voltage overcomes the internal resistance of the battery. The battery when deplete is around 12.5 volts (mostly depleted) to about 14.4 volts when fully charged. So again, a charger ensures a constant and regulated input. If your panel is outputting 19 volts, at 7 amps it should be 19x7 divided by 14.4 = 9.2 amps. That is very close to the input of most car alternators. Most car batteries are charged at a rate of 10% of their car battery ratings. Coach batteries are charged at some what higher ratings. One last comment is that solar panel's output is a function of available sunlight, so overhanging tree branches, shade or clouds and angle, all conspire to drop the current output and so it will take extra time to recharge a depleted battery.

Boots

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Hi Irving,

I did the same thing, with another type of fuel monitor, on a 1956 Chevy 2 ton! previous owner never got more than 14 mpg, I got 20 mpg. It was a fun thing to do but also saved a ton of gas, since we went from Canada down to Arizona and then pulled a 35 ft trailer back. Thanks for your link I will go to it in a minute and take a look.

On another topic and for all V6 equipped RVs, I would like to spread the word that Toyota has a secret warranty, to rebuild the V6 engines, due to a faulty head gasket. There are conditions, but to keep the story short, take your rig to a Toyota dealer, and ask if you qualify. My first Toy was exactly like yours and the engine blew when on holidays, 3400 dollars later, we were on our way, but while waiting for this rebuild, I found out about the warranty. Back home, we approached Toyota, showed them our invoice and they gave us a cheque. My second Toy (bought a few weeks ago) also qualified, they took it in and rebuilt it for us, no charge. So check it out before the heads let go.

Brian

By the way, I get the same mileage (approximately) as you do. One thing I don't understand is that this motor has an altilmeter sensor built into it, and the higher up in elevation, at some point the overdrive cuts out, and stay disconnected until you descend, you notice that.

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Couple of things- you cannot power your truck with solar without a battery in line. Well you can but not for very long and with disastrous results. The panels will produce in excess of 20 volts on a nice bright day the battery provides the reference for voltage regulation. They do not just simply turn on and off to regulate they are pulse width modulation and are powered by the battery. Turning off the alternator is also asking for trouble because of the voltage spikes when it's re-energized. The proper way to turn off the alternator would be to cut the field voltage not the output but again when it is turned back on it going to be full tilt because it thinks the battery is dead, your alt. light would also stay on. The alternator is around 760 watts just slightly more than one horse power at full charge rate or 1/135 of the 4 cyl engine output (pretty small percentage). The Toy homes have no OBD2 output so any scan type gauge is just an educated guess better than nothing but not real accurate enough so about the only thing that will be of consequences would be driving habits. The best bet would be to use you solar panels as a grid tie system just to help the alternator with the load. I hate to say it but hypermileing a motor home is nothing more than a novel experiment. I tow trailers with a 2011 Tacoma I have a scan gauge type device it receives a myriad of information from the ECU including HP, fuel trim, torque etc. the only thing I can do to reduce the fuel usage is slow down and use the highest gear possible. By the way I take a 7 (or 9 if I drive like I stole it) mile per gallon hit with the trailers no matter what I do.

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Hey since this thread has been revived and you mention high gear, I was just thinking of something yesterday as I drove. I have a carb jetted for sea level but tuned for mountains (didn't have time to do it right before leaving for my trip, and I'll be at sea level in a couple months and will re-tune then, and re-jet when I settle back down), so it's been a dog off and on, especially since I've been at around 7,000ft for a while ( in Santa Fe right now). Anyway...

As I was driving the thought I've had in the past came into my head again. I'm showing my ignorance here but I've never been shy about that...

When I push on the gas pedal, it does actually add more gas to the mix, right?

Can you explain what's happening? Because the question I think of every now and then is- which is using more gas: low gear with high rpms, or high gear with low rpms? Because at highway speed (more or less...this is a 78 motorhome), if I'm in 3rd gear going 45mph, my foot is barely on the gas at all. But in 4th gear at the same speed I'm almost flooring it.

Clearly I don't understand how the system works. If the engine is revving high and my foot is off the gas, like on a downhill, I'm not giving it any gas at all. But obviously, just like when it's idling, it's getting gas. Does the idle speed or engine speed have some control over fuel pump output? Shouldn't...because I think I know that fuel pump pressure should remain constant.

So what is it that is controlling how much fuel goes into the carb? Engine speed? Does engine speed have more of an effect on gas consumption than the gas pedal?

Sometimes I think I'm starting to understand my vehicle, and then I realize that I don't even know some very basic things...

Eh?

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If your into MPG get an old fashion vacuum gauge, you can still find them on Ebay. Modify your driving style to maintain the highest manifold vacuum.

MPG is sorta a function of engine load, So at the same speed (your 45mph) in 4th you are using a lot of throttle and have a high load, low vacuum situation. In 3rd it is reversed low load and high vacuum. If you increase speed the vacuum in 4th will increase and in 3rd it will drop and at some point the readings will cross over and then you would have better MPG in 4th.

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If I had the will, I'd find a way to install an MPGuino. But I just don't feel up to the task of adapting it to a Toyota. Anyone else feel they have the required 'skill set'? It could make a nice little 'cottage industry' for someone if the could make a 'Plug and Play' kit for the 22R-E and 3VZ-E.

http://ecomodder.com/wiki/index.php/MPGuino

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Very basic ideal of how a carb works http://www.infoplease.com/encyclopedia/science/bernoulli-principle.html As WRE said vacuum gauge, it will teach you how to have a light right foot. Engines (motor vehicles) with carbs only have fixed jets to deliver fuel the amount is determined by the jet size alone and the amount of air passing thru the venture.

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Hello,

On the solar panels, I Do run a controller. It is capable of handling up to 20 amps and is adjustable in terms of cutoff points to avoid overcharging and such. I have it set to cut off around 14 volts. I have a 125 watt and a 55 watt panel connected in parallel, and I get about 8 amps at best. It keeps both of my coach batteries (size 24 marine / deep cycle) charged quite well under most conditions. I wouldn't try connecting them without the controller, because as you say they will put out over 17 volts in direct sunlight. Don't want to cook my batteries, or blow out lights, radios, etc!

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Hi again,

The MPGuino uses signals from the vss (vehicle speed sensor) wire and an injector signal wire. You can set the Guino readout to vehicle speed and compare it to your speedometer (you can also further correct this if you know what your speedometer error is) and then you can calibrate the Guino to read speed correctly. Calibration instructions are included in the instructions). Then you can calibrate the signal from the injector signal wire to give you a reasonable MPG reading and then further calibrate it as you compare actual accumulated MPG numbers with the MPGuino numbers until you have it calibrated as accurately as you are comfortable with. Once you have these two numbers close, your instantaneous and accumulated MPG numbers will also be close. Mine is very close, based on many thousands of miles of data.

The only way you will be able to get an earlier, carbureted rig to use the MPGuino is to have an electronic fuel counter in the fuel line (I think they are available) and to have some sort of electronic speed counter (also available). The calibration range on the Guino should allow this, although I can see it would be a major project. It makes a vacuum gauge look like a good, cheap alternative. The MPGuino is a fairly simple hookup for an electronic fuel injection rig, though, whether it's a V-6 or a 22RE.

A vacuum gauge is a good mileage tool, but it only tells you about engine load, not about how far a given amount of fuel will take your rig down the road. The issue is that in a lower gear, the engine works less to move your rig, thus a high vacuum reading. But you don't go very far or very fast. In a higher gear the engine will work harder (thus a lower vacuum reading) but you will go farther with each engine revolution than in a lower gear. The question is, will you gain enough distance to make up for the fact that your engine is using more fuel per revolution than in a lower gear. The MPGuino will answer that question; a vacuum gauge will not. I have found that, in my rig, I will almost always get better actual mileage in the higher gear. I obviously cannot say whether the same will be true in your rig, but I suspect that it will in many cases.

I started out with calibration numbers that I found on a chart on line that gave numbers that people had found for various cars and trucks. I started out with numbers for a V-6 Toyota Camry, and then adjusted from there. It is admittedly a trial-and-error process, but as you get closer the error becomes smaller and smaller. I found it to be a fun and interesting challenge, though a little time consuming.

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Hi Irving,

I did the same thing, with another type of fuel monitor, on a 1956 Chevy 2 ton! previous owner never got more than 14 mpg, I got 20 mpg. It was a fun thing to do but also saved a ton of gas, since we went from Canada down to Arizona and then pulled a 35 ft trailer back. Thanks for your link I will go to it in a minute and take a look.

On another topic and for all V6 equipped RVs, I would like to spread the word that Toyota has a secret warranty, to rebuild the V6 engines, due to a faulty head gasket. There are conditions, but to keep the story short, take your rig to a Toyota dealer, and ask if you qualify. My first Toy was exactly like yours and the engine blew when on holidays, 3400 dollars later, we were on our way, but while waiting for this rebuild, I found out about the warranty. Back home, we approached Toyota, showed them our invoice and they gave us a cheque. My second Toy (bought a few weeks ago) also qualified, they took it in and rebuilt it for us, no charge. So check it out before the heads let go.

Brian

By the way, I get the same mileage (approximately) as you do. One thing I don't understand is that this motor has an altilmeter sensor built into it, and the higher up in elevation, at some point the overdrive cuts out, and stay disconnected until you descend, you notice that.

Hi Brian,

Fortunately my MH had already gotten the new head gaskets before I bought it, The receipts were in the glove box. But everyone with a V-6 should appreciate the heads up.

I think that the mass airflow sensor does the adjusting for elevation; when the air gets thinner as you climb, the computer makes the adjustments. Since less air mass is being pulled in, the computer meters the appropriate amount of fuel (less) to compensate. Thus better fuel mileage and less power. I suspect that, since in most conditions less power means higher throttle (gas pedal) positions to compensate as well as lower engine vacuum, it makes it more difficult to reach a condition where the overdrive would be allowed by the computer to engage. This is just what I surmise; I don't have any evidence of this. It is possible, as you say, that there is an elevation sensor that blocks the overdrive, though I haven't heard about or read about one.

Cheers!

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I hope I'm not posting this twice; it seems to have disappeared the first time...

Hi MontanaChinook,

I think (my opinion only) that engine RPM, throttle position, and gear selection all play into fuel mileage. As you step on the gas, all other things being equal, the engine consumes more fuel. The question with regard to mileage is, how far does that fuel take you down the road? This depends on how far each revolution of the engine takes you, and how much additional gas is run through the engine. The fact that you are using more gas per revolution will hurt your mileage, and the fact that you're in a higher gear will help your mileage. The answer is about which is greater, the gain or the loss. I would think that, using an absurd example, if you drove in first gear all the time you could use very light throttle, thus using little fuel per revolution. But each revolution would not take you very far. I think your mileage would be terrible. Second gear would require more throttle, but you would go farther per revolution. Likewise higher gears mean more throttle and more distance.

What we need is some way to tell for sure if we're reaching a breaking point where a higher gear will require so much more throttle that it will hurt mileage more than the higher gear will help it. My MPGuino answers this question for me. A vacuum gauge will only give you one variable; one piece of the equation. I think, without another piece of the equation, it would be harder to figure out.. You may just have to experiment by trying both the third gear scenario and the forth gear scenario under exactly the same conditions, checking the actual mileage for each scenario separately. Unfortunately this will only give you the answer for that specific condition (or set of conditions). This is why I like the feedback from the Guino; it instantly calculates all of this on the fly. I know this is little help for you since you have a carbureted engine, making the MPGuino useless to you,

I have always heard that the 22R, as well as the RE, are very tough engines and can handle whatever you throw at them. For this reason I think they can probably handle a heavy foot in a high gear, as long as you don't lug them. You may just want to try using a higher gear more often and see if you notice an increase in mileage or not, and go from there.

Hope this helps, and good luck!

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Couple of things- you cannot power your truck with solar without a battery in line. Well you can but not for very long and with disastrous results. The panels will produce in excess of 20 volts on a nice bright day the battery provides the reference for voltage regulation. They do not just simply turn on and off to regulate they are pulse width modulation and are powered by the battery. Turning off the alternator is also asking for trouble because of the voltage spikes when it's re-energized. The proper way to turn off the alternator would be to cut the field voltage not the output but again when it is turned back on it going to be full tilt because it thinks the battery is dead, your alt. light would also stay on. The alternator is around 760 watts just slightly more than one horse power at full charge rate or 1/135 of the 4 cyl engine output (pretty small percentage). The Toy homes have no OBD2 output so any scan type gauge is just an educated guess better than nothing but not real accurate enough so about the only thing that will be of consequences would be driving habits. The best bet would be to use you solar panels as a grid tie system just to help the alternator with the load. I hate to say it but hypermileing a motor home is nothing more than a novel experiment. I tow trailers with a 2011 Tacoma I have a scan gauge type device it receives a myriad of information from the ECU including HP, fuel trim, torque etc. the only thing I can do to reduce the fuel usage is slow down and use the highest gear possible. By the way I take a 7 (or 9 if I drive like I stole it) mile per gallon hit with the trailers no matter what I do.

Maineah,

Thanks for this info on the solar panels as a stand-in for the alternator. I do plan to leave the truck battery in the circuit, and to shut off the alternator through the field coils. The thing that concerns me now is, when I switch the solar panels out and the alternator back into the circuit, you mentioned that the alternator will take off at full tilt, thus overcharging. Will the alternator quickly recognize the full state of charge of the battery and back right down to a trickle, or will it be somehow stuck on full charge?

Also, I wish that I could use a more sophisticated scan device like the ScanGauge, with all the info it has and the ease of just plugging it into the OBDII port under the dash. I'd love to have all that info to take my eyes off the road :-)

Unfortunately, as you said, the older Toy MH's are not OBDII, but only OBDI. Still, the MPGuino is better than nothing.

I am considering a swap in my MH to the later 3.4 Toyota engine, which is OBDII. This would allow me to use a ScanGauge, and it is my understanding that, driven sanely, would get me better mileage. I would be able to climb a somewhat steeper grade without a downshift, and cruise at a lighter throttle position. Many people really love this conversion (a little spendy, though)!

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Yes, I have the 20R, and it can rev even more than the 22R. My 22R would be screaming around 3500 rpm, but my 20R sounds just fine way higher than that. I agree, lugging is especially bad.

So whether I understand all of it or not, I think I can get along fine knowing that if I'm in the sweet spot of 2500-3500 (more or less), I'm probably getting the best mileage I can, since that's where the engine seems to like to be. If only I had a tach...

I'd install one, but I hate the look of aftermarket tachs and don't see a place on my dash where one wouldn't be kinda hideous. So I'll just go by ear. It's even easier to hear with my exhaust manifold leak I keep not fixing...

Thanks.

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Have you looked for an SR5 instrument panel? I imagine by now they are going to be in the hens teeth category, but might give you something more to do during your wanderings

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Have you looked for an SR5 instrument panel? I imagine by now they are going to be in the hens teeth category, but might give you something more to do during your wanderings

The SR-5 panel for the 92 Pickup has the tach in the manual transmission version, and maybe in the automatics too. But it doesn't have one that has the transmission gear selector indicator, probably because the SR-5's with automatic had a floor shifter, while the MH has a column shifter. Too bad, and something I could probably live with anyway. I have heard that, at least for my year and model the tachometer instrument panel is plug-and-play; just plug it in and everything works; tach, trip odometer and everything (except the oil pressure gauge). On the oil gauge you must FIRST change the sending unit on the engine, or it will cook the gauge. The idiot light sending unit is an on-off switch controlled by oil pressure, so it will send full voltage to the gauge, assuming it is a light. THis will cook the gauge, which only needs a signal from the variable resistor that the gauge sender has. This is only what I've heard so it is second hand info at best, but worth checking out. I also don't know if any of this would apply to a more vintage Toy PU. like the pretty little one MontanaChinook uses for his avatar.

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