Jump to content

Recommended Posts

OK you rear axle gurus out there. I have gotten an email from a fellow Sunrader 4x4 owner who is broken down near Yosemite with a 6 lug axle where all 6 lugs have sheared off and he needs to know how to replace them.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

They are small studs on mine with cone washers,some people claim that using silcon instead of a gasket is the cause,I use silcon.

Back to the subject sounds like a drill and easy out maybe also some heat to remove Them or a fine touch with a welder. Tom

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
They are small studs on mine with cone washers,some people claim that using silcon instead of a gasket is the cause,I use silcon.

Back to the subject sounds like a drill and easy out maybe also some heat to remove Them or a fine touch with a welder. Tom

Tom - not 100% following you on the small studs and cone washers. The wheel bolt studs should be pretty good size and I can not imagine any cone washers on them. I am still waiting for a reply as to if the axle is a full floating or the stock 1986 4x4 rear axle. All the axles I have replaced lugs on you just used a drift pin and knocked the lug out the back of the hub and then replaced it.

Thanks for the quick reply but need more info on the small studs and cone washers.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Tom - not 100% following you on the small studs and cone washers. The wheel bolt studs should be pretty good size and I can not imagine any cone washers on them. I am still waiting for a reply as to if the axle is a full floating or the stock 1986 4x4 rear axle. All the axles I have replaced lugs on you just used a drift pin and knocked the lug out the back of the hub and then replaced it.

Thanks for the quick reply but need more info on the small studs and cone washers.

Greg, If its the standard 6 lug 4x4 axle they should be able to pull the brake drum off, use a drift and hammer and drive the broken studs out, slip the new stud in from the rear of the axle flange, put a couple flat washers over the stud and using the lugnut turned upside down so the flat part is against the washers tighten it down and pull the stud into place.

If its the 1 ton axle, the small studs and cone washers already mentioned, those are the ones that hold the axle in the hub, need to be pulled to remove the axle, so access to the retainer nut can be had to remove the brake drum, once done the hub assembly is exposed and the studs can be accessed, I can't remember without looking, but the studs are either press fit like the stock axle above and the same removal technique is used, or might be held with a jamb nut, it should be easy enough to tell by looking. Good luck

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I second what Nolan says.

Remove the half shaft (getting the cone washers free is a b$#@^%)

Remove the ring nut that preloads the bearing

Slip off the brake drum / hub

Drift out the studs

Pull in the new ones (good proposal from Nolan)

Reassemble

Off ya go !

I'm curious how this happened though. Those are pretty big studs. There must have ben collateral damage (were the lug nuts loose ?) so I think there is more to this story and the fix than what we heard. Maybe he will be needing new studs, new lug nuts and a pair of replacement rims ?

Keith

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
I think there is more to this story and the fix than what we heard. Maybe he will be needing new studs, new lug nuts and a pair of replacement rims ?

The floating axle on the diesel has left hand threads on the drivers side. I don't know how many times I have had to yell at tire jockeys after telling them over and over again that the lug nuts are left hand thread. Duh... That means they go opposite a normal lug nut to take off and put on just like on a road tractor. Bet it was the driver's side and the axle was an early 1986 model.... If this is the case have them put in right hand thread studs if they are replacing all of them to avoid this in the future.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
The floating axle on the diesel has left hand threads on the drivers side. I don't know how many times I have had to yell at tire jockeys after telling them over and over again that the lug nuts are left hand thread. Duh... That means they go opposite a normal lug nut to take off and put on just like on a road tractor. Bet it was the driver's side and the axle was an early 1986 model.... If this is the case have them put in right hand thread studs if they are replacing all of them to avoid this in the future.

I believe my 87 Sunrader 4x2 is the same. At least the guy who I brought it from told me that. Will find out for sure next week when my new tires get here!

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
I believe my 87 Sunrader 4x2 is the same. At least the guy who I brought it from told me that. Will find out for sure next week when my new tires get here!

I would suggest you find out before you let someone loose with an air wrench on them. Put a breaker bar on the driver's side rear lug nuts and turn clockwise. IF they loosen then you have left hand threads. The studs are NOT marked so the only way to know is TO KNOW. Left had thread metric lug nuts are the devil to find. I ended up getting a full set of 6 last month through Toyota "special order" at $10 apiece + tax YOWSERS !!!! Again, watch the tire jockeys... excessive over tightening (i.e. they keep tightening them because they think they are taking them off) will destroy the lug nut threads before the studs break off. If they keep tightening, then the stud will break off... If you get a "rocket scientist" tire jockey they will break off all 6 studs before they figure out something is not right (yea buddy it is LEFT not RIGHT). I don't think you really want to find out what left hand thread studs would cost you from Toyota.....

BTW front are all right hand thread. Even the 5 lug to 6 lug adapters I have on the diesel are Right hand thread on both. BUT the one on the left side has a BIG R stamped in the end of the stud to tell you it is a right hand thread.

R-stud.jpg

OH.... I should say..... The rear axle on the diesel is off of a 1986 1 ton. Toyota switched away from left hand thread studs on the driver's side on their floating axles mid year 1987 because of all of the broken stud issues.

Pat: If you have an 87 Sunrader it is more than likely built on a 1986 chassis and there is a great probability that you have left hand threads on your driver's side rear.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Allright thanks guys. I have not heard back from him so hopefully he has figured it out or has gotten the help he needs. As soon as I hear from him I will pass the info and post back here.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

A bit more info

He is now a member on this board "deggenb". There was a problem with his validation. I will email him with the link to this topic and hopefully he will chime in.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Thanks for the response to my broken axle. I have an 1986 4*4 Sunrader with a 6 bolt ( not floating?) axle that sheared off on a trip to Yosemite, fortunately I was going very slowly when the dual wheels left the truck and was able to have it towed to a repair shop in Mammoth. After finding out about the problems with the non floating axles it dosn't seem prudent to put in a new axle shaft........rather replace it with a full floating axle. There is a wrecked mid-80's Toyota motor home at a wrecker close to me with what appears to be the ful floating axle. Will this bolt up without major modifications? Should I have the bearings replaced? How big a job is it to take the old axle out and put the floating axle in? Thanks for your help

Daan

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Thanks for the response to my broken axle. I have an 1986 4*4 Sunrader with a 6 bolt ( not floating?) axle that sheared off on a trip to Yosemite, fortunately I was going very slowly when the dual wheels left the truck and was able to have it towed to a repair shop in Mammoth. After finding out about the problems with the non floating axles it dosn't seem prudent to put in a new axle shaft........rather replace it with a full floating axle. There is a wrecked mid-80's Toyota motor home at a wrecker close to me with what appears to be the ful floating axle. Will this bolt up without major modifications? Should I have the bearings replaced? How big a job is it to take the old axle out and put the floating axle in? Thanks for your help

Daan

The main issue you will find with your 4x4 is that the springs are on the other side of the axle. Your 4x4 springs are on top of the axle and the 4x2 springs are under the axle. You will require some welding to get the spring plates off below then put back on above the axle. UNLESS someone has modified your truck since it was manufactured this is what you "should find".

I would suggest that you put in another half shaft and wheel bearing then drive home where you can have the time to make some decisions and do some research to find out what you need/want to do for a long term fix.

I would just about bet that your rear axle is a stock 4x4 axle which uses 6 bolt 15" rims but has a single inner wheel bearing. Without seeing what you have this is just an educated "guess" as that would have been stock on your 4x4 Sunrader.

When you have the new bearing and half shaft installed I would suggest that you have the bearing on the other side looked at and at the very least, repacked or replaced if it shows signs of wear.

I think you will find that trying to do an axle switch over on the road and having the gearing match up with what you have in your front axle as well as getting the wheel and tire sizes to match up will be more than you want to do until you get home.

Doing an axle swap on a standard truck is a fiddly process as frame and spring widths are different between model years. Toss in bringing the springs to the other side, matching gearing to another axle, and getting rims and tires to match front and rear and this is something that you will want to step back from, think over, and put aside some time in the planning stage before digging in.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Diesel Mike,

Thank You! I am NOT a mechanic and this is way over my head. Th local junkyard has a wrecked Dolphin with what appears to be the right floating axle ($425). The guy there said he would put it in,change the spring brackets but was unsure of wether the gearing in the rear end would match up to the 4*4 transfer case gearing. The Dolphin is 84/88 (?) Toyota with a standard transmission, mine is an 85 with an automatic transmission. I hate to do an expensive fix on the old axle but it may at least get me home...........I think my existing (broken) axle is a 6 bolt 15" dual wheel axle and the one on theDolphin is the full floating axle with 14" rims. I really appreciate you taking the time to help us. We have come to love the Sunrader and have taken it to a handful of climbing trips to Yosemite, it is the perfect upgrade from our tent for us with our over 60 bodies.

Thanks Daan

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
The guy there said he would put it in,change the spring brackets but was unsure of wether the gearing in the rear end would match up to the 4*4 transfer case gearing.

Your issue is matching the gear ratio in the front diff with the gear ratio in the rear diff and making sure that the front and rear wheels are the same outside diameter so that everything is in sync when you have both axles engaged.

You can find out what your gear ratio is from the VIN on your truck. Call a Toyota dealer and have them look it up.

You can find out what the donor axle gear ratio is from the VIN on that truck.

As long as they are the same ratio and you end up with the same outside diameter tires you will have no issues with running in 4 wheel drive.

The transfer case ratio is not an issue as you have 1:1 in high range and 2.28:1 in low range and the case will spin both drive shafts at exactly the same rate. So as long as both axles are spinning the wheels at the same rate (which will mean matching the gear ratio in both front and rear axle and having the same outside diameter tires on both axles) everything is hunky dorie in 4x4 land. You CAN have different size tires AS LONG AS they are identical on the outside diameter (that is, the different sizes measure the same diameter around the out side so that they cover the same distance for each rotation of the tire). If you have tires that are different diameters then you will bind up the drive shafts and snap a U-joint or snap another half shaft as the front and rear axles will be spinning at a different rate from each other.

I am going to "guess" that you have 4.10:1 gearing in your truck's stock axles (here again someone may have changed them over the years but 4.10:1 was the most common ratio for the 4x4).

$435 is a good price on the rear axle. there is one in a salvage yard near here and they want $700 for it. I don't need one but I asked for a price anyway seeing as I just happened to see it out in the yard when I was getting other parts

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Thanks Diesel Mike,

Next stop will be to get Vin numbers and then Toyota. If gearing is different in the floating axle could it still be used ?

Thanks Daan

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
If gearing is different in the floating axle could it still be used ?

ONLY if you change the gear ratio in the new rear axle to match what you have in the front axle OR you change the gear ratio in the front axle to match the new rear axle OR if you take off the front drive shaft and make it a 2 wheel drive truck.

If you have a mismatch in gearing or tire size you will snap something when you engage 4 wheel drive.

Use this as an example/analogy....

Take a pencil and attach 2 disks to the outside (glue them on so that they are solid with the pencil) then spin each side at a different rate. The pencil will break or one of the disks will break off. This is what will happen if you have a mismatch in a 4x4 and have both axles engaged. If you are on dirt or gravel the wheels will slide and scuff to release the binding but if you are on hard pavement the traction of the tires will not let the axle slip and you will rip something up very quickly so that the bind is released.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Let me add this.......

You can put in the axle now, even if it does not have the same gear ratio as your other axle

AS LONG AS...

You unlock your front hubs and do not engage 4 wheel drive until you get the gearing matching in both axles. You will not have any issues driving in 2 wheel drive.

This will get you home where you can then order a new ring in pinion (if needed) so that both axles have the same ratio.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Thanks again for taking the time to sort this out for me........I'll research it more in the AM and hopefully come up with a stategy.

Thanks

Daan

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

good luck on the swap if you go that route. The floater axle will fit in with some work, like said the spring pads will need relocated to the top of the housing with the correct pinion angle, some fabbing on the ebrake connection, but nothing that is a major challenge.

The key as Moosepucky said is going to be the gear ratio and tire height synched with the front so everything is the same. You said yours was an auto trans, which a lot of the auto models used a 4.30 gearing, not a real common gear set and don't even know if they are available aftermarket in that ratio, more than likely a dealer item if trying to match the front.

There is a possibility, and I can't say yes it will work, but it might be worth a try to see if the rear third member from your present 4x4 axle would fit in the floater axle housing, then you would retain the same original gearing.

A for what its worth note, if the junkyard motorhome was a 1 ton axle upgrade, most were until around 88, the original vin tag on the Dolphin will only show what the chassis came with originally before it was upgraded, hopefully the installer matched the original gear ratio but just a warning that the vin might not be accurate.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
There is a possibility, and I can't say yes it will work, but it might be worth a try to see if the rear third member from your present 4x4 axle would fit in the floater axle housing, then you would retain the same original gearing.

Even if the hogs head will not fit it would be a good idea to have it removed and take it with you. The old 4x4 one could be sold on eBay or some other venue to recoup some of the $$$ that you will be putting out for the swap over. I've got several setting around in my garage for various vehicles... maybe I should put them on eBay too :headbonk:

You "may" be able to remove the ring and pinion gears from your old diff and install them on the 1 ton diff. Make sure that you find someone that knows what they are doing as tolerances on diffs are very exact and if the mechanic does not know what they are doing or does not have the specialized tools needed to rebuild rear ends you could have a worse mess on your hands.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

The rear wheels in the 4x4 axle swap are a problem. You are not going to be able to get any 15 inch duals from Toyota. You have maybe three choices. As every one has already said gear ratio needs to be the same front and back or there will be serious consequences when using 4x4. My rig has 15 inch rear duals. I don't have a spare though. So I went down to Toyota and was told they never had a 15 inch dual only 14 inch. So its possible to have some built. I have been told that Stockton Wheels http://www.stocktonwheel.com/ in Stockton Calif are the guys who can build a set. I have not contacted them though. Another option possibly is that duals from a different manufacturer might just bolt on. Its been some time but I recall the Toyota parts guy telling me that he thought Dodge was the same bolt pattern. Stockton wheel might be able to answer that.

So what you are going to have after doing the axle swap are 14 inch rear duals. Make sure if you buy the axle you also get the wheels as I don't think your present wheel will fit the new axle.

My duals have different offsets. I discovered this one day looking at the clearance between the tires. One was wide while the other set was touching. So I pulled them off and measured the offset. Sure enough two were 9 3/4 and two were 9 1/8 offset. I had to pair one of each together to make it right. I have no idea if the different offsets is intentional or if it was an accident. I placed the short offset on the inside and the long on the outside.

Your worries right now are getting the axle on so if it were me I would not worry about the different axle ratios or wheel sizes. Once its on and running you can change those later. The rear gears are easy to swap out.

I believe my gear ratio is the 4.10:1 but I also have a turbo engine and different transmission possibly. The tag under the hood (rear firewall I think) should have the codes for the gear ratio and transmission.

If I have covered anything anyone else has already covered I apologize, I quickly read through the posts on my way off to work.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Thank you guy's for such helpful replies.............I bought the floating axle out of the wrecked Dolphin, does that mean the change of pads has already happened? I should have it by Monday. Sounds like my existing 6 bolt 15" wheels won'ty work..... are the 14" that are comming with the axle ok? If I can get it back here I will have the time to properly figure this thing out. I need a temporary solution to get it home. We were very lucky to have the wheels come off were they did as the day's before we were driving up and down Tioga pass and the consequences on the downhill, at 55mph, could have been deadly. I can't imagine anyone driving a rig with axles that have this potential..... would like to have those 15" wheels work as the tires are almost brand new? Again we're really grateful for your help!

Daan

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Thank you guy's for such helpful replies.............I bought the floating axle out of the wrecked Dolphin, does that mean the change of pads has already happened? I should have it by Monday. Sounds like my existing 6 bolt 15" wheels won'ty work..... are the 14" that are comming with the axle ok? If I can get it back here I will have the time to properly figure this thing out. I need a temporary solution to get it home. We were very lucky to have the wheels come off were they did as the day's before we were driving up and down Tioga pass and the consequences on the downhill, at 55mph, could have been deadly. I can't imagine anyone driving a rig with axles that have this potential..... would like to have those 15" wheels work as the tires are almost brand new? Again we're really grateful for your help!

Daan

Use the 14 inch to get home. Throw the 15 inch tires in the back for when you do get the 15 inch rims. I don't know if your present 15 inch rear wheel will work. Are they true duals? If they are true duals and the bolt pattern matches up then sure, they should work.

Most likely your pads (as someone already posted above said) will have to be moved from the bottom to the top of the axle. Look at how your present axle is mounted to the springs. You have to duplicate that.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Thanks,

I now have the full floating axle (gear ratio unknown) in the back of my truck, along with what appears to be 14" true dual wheels. I could have the local welder move the mounting bracket from bottom to top before I take it down to Mammoth and hopefully bolt it in. They cut the ebrake lines at the wreckers.... will the ones on the my 4*4 work or do I need to buy new cables? The main short term issue seems to be changing the brackets to the top....and the long term issue is the gear ratio. We could do without 4*4 this year and fix that this winter. I do need to get it home so I can deal with this on my home turf. Is it OK to move those brackets and are there any special problems doing that? Thanks guy's!

Daan

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now


×