Dunce Posted February 5, 2014 Share Posted February 5, 2014 Hi all. Two days ago I became the proud owner of a 1987 Dolphin with 92,000 miles. It has the original 22re engine in it, and appears well maintained. I bought it about 100 miles from my home. When I was driving it home yesterday everything worked amazing and I was giddy putting down the road. With only 7 miles to go it started running a little rough and seemed to be losing power. I live in northern new Mexico so there are mountains, but I was just going up a small hill. Eventually the engine cut off so I coasted to the side of the road. When I tried to start it it would crank but not start. I let it sit while my ride came to get me. After sitting for 20 minutes I cranked it and it fired up but ran really rough. Fast forward to today. I woke up early went out to it and it cranked right up. The engine hummed like it did when I first got it. I tried to make it the rest of the way home but the same scenario as last night occurred. It started to lose power and run rough, then died about 1.5 miles down the road. Any idea or help would be much appreciated. Thanks in advance! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
darrel Posted February 5, 2014 Share Posted February 5, 2014 Congratulations on your new old motorhome, sorry that you didn't make it home. The fuel filter may be plugged. The muffler or catalytic converter may be plugged up. Fuel filter is located in a hard to get to place, left side of engine tucked up under the intake close to the starter. I had a muffler on a Honda civic deteriorate on the inside. It would act-up with the same systems as you explain. Try pounding on the muffler and cat. If the rattle they may be bad. Fuel filter is under pressure, maybe 45# so if you remove it have a cold engine and remove the negative battery cable to prevent a possible fire. I'm sure other people will post on your situation. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Derek up North Posted February 5, 2014 Share Posted February 5, 2014 Or a tired fuel pump that pumps has less pressure/flow as it heats up. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Skydancer2992 Posted February 5, 2014 Share Posted February 5, 2014 When my fuel pump was going bad, it operated intermittently. It stranded me once and then started fine the next day. On my 85 4Runner, the factory fuel pump lasted 100K, and then the next two Autozone fuel pumps lasted about 60K each. On my 96 4Runner, the factory fuel pump is still running fine after 340K miles. Sometimes you can temporarily revive a fuel pump slapping the gas tank firmly with the palm of your hand. My 85 Toyota had a round access hatch under the rear seat to access the fuel pump. I'm considering a modification on my camper. The hatch made the fuel pump changeout into a 30 minute delay. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dunce Posted February 6, 2014 Author Share Posted February 6, 2014 I took it to the shop today to get looked at. I'll follow up in a couple days with what the issue is. I decided to take it to the shop because when I attempted driving it the last time today (before towing to the shop), the engine was making a very disheartening noise. The noise was similar to a metal hitting metal noise. Hopefully it's the just the fuel pump, and this puppy will be ready for the open road. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stamar Posted February 6, 2014 Share Posted February 6, 2014 I want a good plan for this hatch. I sometimes think my fuel pump i going. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MontanaChinook Posted February 6, 2014 Share Posted February 6, 2014 Hm...fuel pump pretty much never makes that noise. Nothing in it to create metal hitting metal. And it's in your gas tank, so the noise it makes wouldn't be coming from your engine. I'll be very interested to hear what your mechanic says...hopefully not: timing chain...bad rod bearings... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dunce Posted February 6, 2014 Author Share Posted February 6, 2014 I still think the strangest part of it all is that its starts (after sitting for a long time) and idles beautifully. Its only when you start to drive that there seems to be a lack of power and then an eventual stall. The metal on metal noise almost sounds like an engine knock, which makes me quite nervous. We will see when I get a call from the mechanic today. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DanAatTheCape Posted February 6, 2014 Share Posted February 6, 2014 When it acts up, remove the gas cap to see if relieves a lot of pressure. you say 22re - is that fuel injected? if so on hot days (altitude has the same effect as warmth) more fuel is returned to the tank via the injection bypass. the comments on clogged catalytic converter/ mufflers is a possibility but I think that would be more constant. a fuel pump going out could be the issue - easy to test with a pressure gauge - any mechanic can do it quickly. My experience with fuel pumps is they either work or not. I have banged on a gas tank with a 2x4 to get one to "wake up". I do not run my tanks below a 1/4 so the pump is never run partially dry - some say that shortens the life of a wet fuel pump (in the tank type). another thing you can try is to have 2 gallons of water with you - when it acts up pour it around the engine compartment to cool off the areas (components) -- why? I was out west years ago in my 92 spirit & after repeated stops in Aspen then driving up to Independence pass the engine started running rough -we pulled over - it cooled off (after a few hours) and we went on our way. A few weeks later same scenario north of Steamboat - this time poured the water with the engine running and symptoms stopped - figuring that a component (plug wire, coil, ignition?) was breaking down in the heat. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dunce Posted February 6, 2014 Author Share Posted February 6, 2014 Funny enough, removing the gas cap was the first thing I did when I stalled and ended up on the side of the road. No noticable change after I left it open to depressurize for awhile. It is fuel injected. As others have said about the fuel pump issue, I am beginning to think this may be the issue. We'll see what the reports on pressure are from my mechanic in the next day or so. When I got the rig it was extremely low on gas and I had to drive to a gas station about 10 miles away to fuel up. Potentially could have damaged the pump or let particulate matter to get up in there. I thought about pouring some water on the engine when I was stuck on the side of the road with the engine hotter than it had been. I didn't because I worried about it cooling down too quickly and possibly cracking something. Is that possible? I know throwing cold water in the water can crack your head, I wonder if around the engine will do the same thing. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MontanaChinook Posted February 6, 2014 Share Posted February 6, 2014 I personally would not throw cold water on my hot engine, but I'm no expert. Just doesn't seem good... If your stalling issue is the pump, then you have more than one issue. Running out of fuel should not cause any metallic noises from the engine. You didn't overheat? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dunce Posted February 6, 2014 Author Share Posted February 6, 2014 You didn't overheat?. I may have overheated, but I don't think so. The dash lights were out (my first planned project when I got it home) so I didn't pay attention to the thermostat. Could overheating have cracked the block or something like that? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MontanaChinook Posted February 6, 2014 Share Posted February 6, 2014 Overheating in Toyotas and Subarus is a very bad thing. You've got a cast iron block, and an aluminum head. So they expand and contract at different rates. Overheating can often cause the head gasket to go. Also...overheating can be caused by a head gasket which is already going. If it were totally blown, you wouldn't have been running smooth at all. And when there's a small leak, it usually runs worse when you first start it up, before it's warm, then gets better as it warms up. So it's probably not that. I'm just kind of throwing ideas out as to what might make a metallic noise from the engine. There's definitely a chance that the rough running and the noise are not related. But who knows. A timing chain which has skipped a tooth or two will cause it to run bad, but it would run bad all the time. Timing chain slapping the timing cover and wearing a hole through it will dump coolant into the oil and do bad things...but it would also always run bad. Engines do weird things though and I only know what I know, which isn't nearly enough. But sometimes asking questions gets you to give info that you hadn't before, either cause you didn't think of it or didn't think it was important. But the engine could ping if you've got a real lean mixture, which running out of fuel could cause... Anyway, I have no idea, but I'll be interested to know what the mechanic says! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dunce Posted February 7, 2014 Author Share Posted February 7, 2014 But the engine could ping if you've got a real lean mixture, which running out of fuel could cause... This is really hope that is whats happening. The main suspect in this investigation has been the fuel system from the beginning. I still don't understand why it would turn on and hum beautifully and then either stall or drive with low power (pinging along the way) and then stall down the road. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MontanaChinook Posted February 7, 2014 Share Posted February 7, 2014 Weird things happen. I had that happen with my 83 4x4. Drove fine (after an engine and transmission rebuild) for months and months. Then one day coming home from a couple hours outside of town...started jerking, losing power. Got to the point where I had it floored, on flat ground, and could only go about 45mph. Limped it home. Put a new fuel filter on. Long story short, this happened, every now and then, for the next two years. Always on the highway, never around town. Changing out fuel filters didn't seem to help...it was the pulling over and stopping for a bit (to change the fuel filter) that seemed to actually be doing it. Or maybe it was opening up the fuel lines to change filters that did it? I looked into everything. Maybe old fuel lines, weakened with age, flexing under "load" when fuel demands where high? I don't know. I did eventually put all new soft fuel line in. And it eventually stopped. But I never did figure out exactly what was causing the problem... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Maineah Posted February 7, 2014 Share Posted February 7, 2014 Low fuel and junk in the tank do not make a difference the pump pickup is low in the tank all ready what is there would have been picked up long ago, running it low makes no difference. As far as cooling the pump again low fuel will not cause an issue the system returns more fuel than is needed the fuel travels right through the pump it's self motor and every thing if the fuel is low enough to make it warm it's going to stop any way when the engine quits from lack of fuel pressure. The noise it's making may be a clue to your problem be sure you tell who ever is working on it about that. If the cat is plugged it's going to run bad all the time a vacuum gauge will tell you right away if it's plugged. Yes a fuel pressure check is in order also. Good luck. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dunce Posted February 8, 2014 Author Share Posted February 8, 2014 (edited) If this ends up being something other than the fuel system I think when I get it back I will be replacing/cleaning a lot of that so I don't have to anymore. I don't have any service records, but I do have an oil change window sticker from september of 2009 advising on an oil change a thousand miles ago. This tells me that the rig sat for a couple long bouts. Whether it is the problem or not, I'm sure replacing a 27 year old fuel system isn't a bad idea. The most frustrating thing is that because of where I live I wasn't able to get a tow truck driver willing to drop off my Toy at my house because it's down a long dirt road. Otherwise I would be up to my elbows fixing this thing. Edited February 8, 2014 by Dunce Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dunce Posted February 14, 2014 Author Share Posted February 14, 2014 Well everybody, I have some good news and some bad news. The bad news is that after replacing the fuel filter, making sure the pump was functioning properly, and everything was sparking correctly, the final diagnosis is that the engine threw a rod (or something like that, if I can decipher mechanic code well enough). There was a beautiful hole in the side of the engine where it had knocked out a chunk about the size of a nickle. The good news is that the same day I was able to find a completely rebuilt 22re from a highly recommended builder with a generous warranty not too far from home. Picked it up yesterday, and dropped it off at the mechanic today. the real good news is that I am going ahead and doing this, getting a fresh engine, before ever really hitting the road. This could have been really bad if I got stranded 200 miles out from a city instead of 5 miles from my mechanic's shop. The price was 1180 for the rebuilt engine, and 1160 for the labor, chemicals, and a few miscellaneous parts. Should be ready early next week. I am certainly sad to see so much of my budget ($3000) for restoration go to one item, but like I said, I'm glad it happened when it did instead of in a really inconvenient, or dangerous location. Thank you to everyone that pitched in their 2 cents and gave advice. Even though the fuel pump or filter would have been a nice easy fix, I at least know now that those are fully functioning and clean. Hopefully my next post will be in the trip reports section, here's to hoping. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MontanaChinook Posted February 14, 2014 Share Posted February 14, 2014 Wow! Well, I'm glad you've got a good attitude about it. That's the only way to look at it with these things. I've seen photos of rods that went right through the block, but I've never seen one in real life! Cool. Yeah so your noise was the rod slapping around in the cylinder. It's really been far too long since you started posting to not have seen any photos of this thing yet... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dunce Posted February 14, 2014 Author Share Posted February 14, 2014 It's really been far too long since you started posting to not have seen any photos of this thing yet... As soon as I get the thing home i'll take some glamour shots. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DanAatTheCape Posted February 18, 2014 Share Posted February 18, 2014 When I used water to cool my engine components, I left the engine running. I also poured the water around the perimeter of the engine compartment. I have hosed down overheating engines on several other vehicles in the past - with the engine running, & the water distributed to allow for a reasonable cooling rate. In my toy case, the engine immediately ran better when I cooled the items outside the engine block- in that case I had something malfunctioning (not sure what) and when a little cooling was "added" the offending component started acting a lot "better". Just something to try. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dunce Posted February 19, 2014 Author Share Posted February 19, 2014 The cause of the blown engine is still a mystery. However, when the mechanic was installing the new engine, they had to replace almost all of the hosing. Apparently a lot of the hoses were worn out, leaking, or blocked. I would suggest to anyone that purchases a toy home that has been sitting very long, to check on the hosing, wires, and auxilary systems (Water pump, radiator, fuel pump, etc). I have spent a large chunk of change, but now have an almost complete engine compartment, so many trips are coming. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MontanaChinook Posted February 20, 2014 Share Posted February 20, 2014 Yes old vehicles are fun... My Chinook drove great, but when I was replacing belts, I noticed the water pump pulley had play in it. So I decided to replace the fan clutch, water pump and oil pump. Put it back together, and the radiator had a new leak...drove it on some trips, and suddenly the headgasket was leaking coolant! Probably there was a weak, damaged spot in the headgasket, and the increased pressure from the new water pump made it give way. But...now I have a new water and oil pump, radiator, headgasket, intake and exhaust manifold gaskets. Not so bad, in the end. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dunce Posted February 20, 2014 Author Share Posted February 20, 2014 Engine is fully installed in roarin'. I finally got it home (2 weeks since I purchased it!!), and I'm digging in. Pictures to come tomorrow, as well as the improvements I'll being doing over the next couple of weeks. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MontanaChinook Posted February 21, 2014 Share Posted February 21, 2014 Great! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gulfstream Greg Posted February 21, 2014 Share Posted February 21, 2014 87 is fuel injection? Could be your injector pump. And ya, cold water on hot is a no no. Crack city! Sometimes fuel pump noise can telegraph and seem like the noise is from some where else. Your check engine light on? Sounds like a fuel problem. To eliminate electrical go to home depot, lowes, OSH or your local hardware store and buy one of those voltage testers that detect voltage just by sticking the probe into the outlet. Just put it on a plug wire and have someone crank the engine and it should flash or beep. If it does not flash or beep then there is a problem with ignition. Could be the coil, as it gets hot it drops voltage. When it drops dead pull a plug and see if it's wet. Wet no spark, dry no fuel. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Maineah Posted February 21, 2014 Share Posted February 21, 2014 Bummer. Well at least now you'll have peace of mind about leaving the bus route. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MontanaChinook Posted February 21, 2014 Share Posted February 21, 2014 87 is fuel injection? Could be your injector pump. And ya, cold water on hot is a no no. Crack city! Sometimes fuel pump noise can telegraph and seem like the noise is from some where else. Your check engine light on? Sounds like a fuel problem. To eliminate electrical go to home depot, lowes, OSH or your local hardware store and buy one of those voltage testers that detect voltage just by sticking the probe into the outlet. Just put it on a plug wire and have someone crank the engine and it should flash or beep. If it does not flash or beep then there is a problem with ignition. Could be the coil, as it gets hot it drops voltage. When it drops dead pull a plug and see if it's wet. Wet no spark, dry no fuel. Read the thread! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gulfstream Greg Posted February 22, 2014 Share Posted February 22, 2014 the engine was making a very disheartening noise. The noise was similar to a metal hitting metal noise. Hopefully it's the just the fuel pump, and this puppy will be ready for the open road. Read the thread! I read that part Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sailfritz Posted March 9, 2014 Share Posted March 9, 2014 Really loving reading all the problems some of you have had with newly purchased rigs. Speaking of this topic I'm sure some of you have read a few posts of mine. I made payments with the owner, who by the way only put 500 miles on this 85 Dolphin 500 series stick 22r motor with 43,000 miles! Long story. I pick it up May 2nd in Stockton,Ca. and take it to San Jose where kind Linda S. , a moderator on the site, will be helping me sort out prioritys to ready her for my 1st trip May 17th (a week) with my oldest brother and 12 yr old son to Yosemite and back. I am a light mechanic of sorts and have remodeled kitchens, bathroom s etc,...........soooo I'm also a tent camper but at 57 yrs old I'm ready for some basic comforts. I got to look inside while in Calif. as I live in Hawaii since Sept. 2012. Seems leaks around the front bunk windows and vents. Most of the vent opening handles are busted off. ( I will reseal the roof for sure) Propane valve leaks as you unscrew it to the on postion (normal?) The water pump worked as did the interior lights so the aux. battery is good and papers show it was new in 2008. Also new radiator & hoses, thermostat in 2010 too. No receipts for brakes or tuneups. You mechanics out there tell me where do you start? The owner refused to smog it even after I said it's the owners responsibility so that's the first item and should pass as it has low miles. So do I take the signed title to Stockton,Ca. DMV and show it and get a one day moving permit to drive it to a local smog shop and then take that to the DMV with proof of insurance, bill of sale and smog certificate and around $500 later (what owner paid in 2012) I'm the proud owner of a close to 30yr old baby girl Toy? I'm a backyard mechanic so I'm thinking it goes (I drove it) but will it stop when I really need to? The basics of setting something in motion, it needs to stop! How is removing the rear duallys for a brake inspection? This thing has air bags so I should see if they hold constant air pressure which means they are still good? How about some feedback here guys and gals? I'm game for the fun and challenge of putting repairing and making this baby safe and sound over the summer. In fact May 1st I fly in and don't return to Hawaii till Aug. 5th so plenty of time to travel with my 2 boys and the wife around Calif. and up to Bend, Or. and along that famous coast. Tom in Kona Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dunce Posted August 18, 2015 Author Share Posted August 18, 2015 WAYYYY long delayed update on this engine. At the last time I posted (March of 2014) I had taken the ol' girl with her new engine on a 600 mile round trip. I noticed that I had a slow drip on oil, but figured it wasn't that big of a deal. The installer (different from the re-manufacturer) said it isn't a huge deal, just make sure it is topped off, and when I take it for the tune up (free tune up after 500 miles with the re-manufacturer) have him check it out. So I kept it topped off and everything was great. I drove the toy home down to Alburquerque where the engine builder works and had him fix up the engine and do the tuning and get my ready for a trip east back to my summer home in Texas. He said there was a bad seal on the front near where the crankshaft comes out and connects to the pulleys. He fixed it right up, finished up the tuning, and I was on my way. I was a little worried leaving Albuquerque because there are a couple of serious climbs heading east on I-40 getting over the mountains, but nevertheless I had to face them sometime. I get 50 miles outside of ABQ and POP!!!, I hear a loud pop, the engine is barely pulling me along the flat, and it wants to die whenever it drops to an idle. Well oooo. I pull off on the side of the road and get picked up by my mother (who luckily was following me in my car back to Dallas. The toy home is picked up by a tow truck and hauled back to the mechanic's shop in ABQ to get yet ANOTHER new engine. Unfortunately, work has had me locked in Dallas for the better part of a year and a half. But I just got back to ABQ to pick up my baby after a long separation. They fire it up, I drive it around town and eventually do a final tune up so I can head back to Dallas. I was nervous has shit heading out of town again, especially because this time I didn't have a car following me to bail me out if I break down in the desert again. Luckily I made it all the way back home and now have the toy home safe and sound in covered storage where I can finally start working on all the little projects I've been dying to do since I first bought her over a 1.5 years ago. Looking back - having a small town shop that doesn't normally work on these things do an complete engine install was not a smart idea, however, I was left with few options unfortunately. After driving both engines around on 500+ mile journeys I can safely say that the first one was missing a lot of power. When I got in and started driving the most recent install (done by the actual re-manufacturer) I IMMEDIATELY noticed a huge difference in power. I was shocked. I don't' know if the first guys installed something incorrectly or if the engine they put in was doomed from day 1, but there is a major difference. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jjrbus Posted August 18, 2015 Share Posted August 18, 2015 Thanks for the update. Everything is good to go now so enjoy your travels. Jim Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zero Posted August 18, 2015 Share Posted August 18, 2015 . The toy home is picked up by a tow truck and hauled back to the mechanic's shop in ABQ to get yet ANOTHER new engine. What exactly is a "new engine?" Rebuilt short-block? Rebuilt long-block? Complete, ready-to drop-in engine? I almost hate to use the word "rebuilt" anymore since many places have been abusing the meanings of words to the poiint I don't know who has what. "New" used to be just that. Brand new. "Rebuilt" used to be when every part that is subject to wear is somehow renewed. E.g. a reground crank with undersize bearings, a spray-welded crank with standard bearings, engine bored oversize with new pistons and rings (unless it has replaceable sleeves). Head with new valves, guides, seats, reground or new cam, etc. Now, however - I see people selling stuff called "rebuilt" that is just patched up, and stuff that is really rebuilt - now called "remanufactured." Gets very confusing - at least to an "old school" person. I just got in quite an argument with a guy on Ebay selling "new" fuel injectors that aren't even "rebuilt." He cleaned them up, and says they are as good as new, and therefore feels justified to sell them as "new." I'm not nick-picking. I'm truly curious. I used to rebuild my own engines - but now adays - small scale automotive machine work is so expensive - it's usually cheaper buying a factory reman. somewhere. Or of course new if such a thing was possible. I just bought a brand new Hercules engine for my 1946 Oliver bull-dozer, but that was a rare find. Brand new, still in the factory crate. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mustrmrk Posted August 18, 2015 Share Posted August 18, 2015 Very cool! I used to have an old flathead 4 cyl. Oliver Cleatrack crawler - no steering wheel - just two hand brakes and a clutch. The little thing was awesome in the woods hauling logs for firewood. Used it to bush hog my apple orchard in the mountains of VA. The PTO was hard-geared, so I had to get a special overrunning clutch for the PTO shaft - w/o that, the bush hog spinning would keep the transmission turning and keep pushing the crawler forward even with the clutch in. Great, reliable piece of equipment, Another thing to check on a poorly running 22re - the cable connector that connects to the mass air flow meter. Sometimes mine runs like a dog w/ no power, esp. at low RPMs. Sometimes, once it reaches a highish RPM, it suddenly kicks in w/ loads of power. In either event, I have, in the past, "exercised" the connection and temporarily made it run better. I need to replace that connector, though - I've cleaned the connections several times, but I think the terminations are just about out of springiness, so they don't make as reliable a connection as they used to. One last thing I just recently ran into - sometimes in rainy weather it would start running badly - missing, low power. Sometimes exercising the MAF connection would fix it, sometimes it wouldn't. A few weeks ago I decided to change the plugs, wires, cap & rotor and with almost no pressure the coil wire came off the dist cap. w/o the terminal on the end. Sometimes the problem is really not complex at all... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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