Rear air bag, what model and do I really need it

[bufbooth]

Hello All...after I put on my new Bilstein rear shocks, I realized that they now touch the left side air bag and have started to rub

away the rubber coating. There is no way to move/adjust the air bag to make it better, all adjustments make it worse.

My first question is does anyone know what brand/model air bag I have, from the past owner the bag is 8 to 10 years old, it

is 8.5 inches long (uninflated, not counting the metal bracket and 3 inches wide.

My second question is about how old is the service life of an air bag, since I have one off, is it about time to replace it with a new

one, especially since I have some rubber off?

And third, do I really need the air bag on the left side? With all air out of both air bags my Toyota's rear end is plenty high, only

used the air bags to level the sides and my right side was always lower than the left side. Even after new coil spring bushings and

the new Bilstein shocks, my toyota still leans to the right, requiring the right side air bag to get about 70lbs to level it. I have been

putting 20lbs of air into the left air bag (the one I have out right now), only because there was a warning label to keep a mininum

of 20lbs in them. Since it appears that I do not need the left air bag (actually by not having it I might only need 50lbs in my right

air bag), is there any reason/danger in only having one air bag installed? I am currently thinking I will have a better ride with only

the one air bag since it will have less air in it and there will be no left air bag.

Thanks, Dennis...

[waiter]

Here's a link to when I replaced mine.

http://toyotamotorhome.org/forums/index.php?showtopic=4801

John Mc

88 Dolphin 4 Auto

[Derek up North]

I see no danger in only having one installed.

[bufbooth]

Isnt that the main purpose of an air bag, to level?

[waiter]

Isnt that the main purpose of an air bag, to level?

Yes/No,

Yes - to raise the back end up for drivability and frame/chassis clearance.

No - for side to side level. If you have side to side issues, I would look for how things are being loaded in the truck, and or broken or weak spring.

Our truck chassis is fully loaded all the time (and overloaded most of the time). If the truck springs were upgraded to handle the full load, I wouldn't need airbags. ( I think several members of this forum have had spring work done)

Can you use them to level sideways, sure, why not. but if your truck is leaning to one side, I would investigate why this is so. I suspect a weak or broken spring.

Someone had spring work done, perhaps theyll chime in and give us the details.

John Mc

88 Dolphin 4 Auto

[Derek up North]

I've seen people have an extra spring leaf added to one side to level. No different than using the air SPRINGS to do the same thing, except they're adjustable for varying loads/conditions..

[zero]

Air-bags e.g. Firestone Ride Rites are certainly sold for continous use when needed. They offer the advantage of extra weight carry capacity when wanted, and - a softer ride (low air pressure) when the heavy capacity is not needed. In the case of a Toyota RV- they are always carrying heavy weight. They can be hooked up with one central fill, or two that allow leveling side-to-side.

Toyota RVs with Firestone Ride-Rites typically came with kit # MT-1025-F. Now sold as newer number 1130.

My 1988 Toyota Mini-Cruiser 20 footer doesn't have them and sits fine. Low but fine. That proves enough springs can be installed to work with no air-bags.

[zero]

Air bags are not the proper fix for a continuous issue. They are for solving temporary changes in side to side weight

Where the heck did you get that idea from? There are plenty of big trucks around with Firestone Ride-Rites - using them full-time as intended by Firestone. Air pressure is added or let out according to load carried and type of ride desired.

My Dodge diesel truck has them. When it's empty and we drive back-country dirt roads with a lot of washboarding - we let the air out down to 10 PSi. Otherwise it's like riding in a Sherman tank.

[zero]

We are not discussing the scenarios you just drug into the topic. Try to stay focused, it will save you some heartburn.

We are not discussing Firestone Ride-Rites that are commonly installed in Toyota RVs? Tells us then - what the heck IS being discussed here? Some other brand of air-bag that you have yet to disclose??

Firestone does not make "special" limited use Ride-Rites just for Toyotas.

You made your claim about "air bags" which is a non-specific reference. I am speaking specifically about Firestone Ride-Rites.

You seem to be the one that lacks focus here.

[zero]

There you go again JD, taking things out of context and beating me up with it.

Hmmm. Are not you the one that accused me of hijacking a thread that I started? Who is "calling the kettle black" here ??

A guy on this post asked about the air bags in his Toyota RV - correct?

You claimed/stated . . "bags are not the proper fix for a continuous issue. They are for solving temporary changes in side to side weight." Still correct??

I claimed that your statement is not correct.

You then stated that I "need focus." and I'm taking you "out of context."

OK, I'm open-minded. In regard to you - what exactly did I take out of context from "ir bags are not the proper fix for a continuous issue. They are for solving temporary changes in side to side weight."

Note that my comments were specific in regard to Firestone Ride-Rite "air bags" that were/are commonly installed in Toyota RVs.

Firestone sells them for permanent installation and never to be used with all the air let out.

[zero]

Actually what you wrote did reinforce my point that air bags are intended for variable conditions. So thanks for the backup!

In my world - "continuous" and "variable" are not synonymous.

Again - you stated . . ."Air bags are not the proper fix for a continuous issue . . . They are for solving temporary changes in side to side weight."

That is not their primary stated purpose (according to the company that makes and sells them). Correcting side-to-side height is an added benefit IF they are installed with separate fills - and many are not.

They are permanently installed - and are required to always have air pressure in them (never empty) - so it's obvious they are rated for continuous duty. In the situation of a vehicle that is sometimes loaded heavy and sometimes light - continuous duty applies regardless if filled with 5 PSI or 50 PSI. With an RV - its always going to be heavy so I suspect most/many users choose to keep substantial air in them. Firestone made two "convoluted rubber bags" for small trucks like Toyotas and Nissans. One model is rated for 50 PSI max and another is rated for 100 PSI max.

Seems to me - that being close to max load is a normal and "continuous" issue with any 20-21 foot Toyota RV. The Ride-Rites are made to endure that use - full time.

[waiter]

I think Karin nailed it. If your leaning to one side, why? I believe it takes many 100's of lbs to get the truck to do this (if the springs are OK). How much does the driver or passenger weigh? ( I have a vision of a 500 lbs person getting in behind the wheel of a 1978 Ford Pinto, and it tipping over sideways) :-)

If you don't see anything obvious in load distribution, maybe find a place to weigh it side to side. if the weights are within 100-200 lbs, I'd say the distribution is OK and you have a spring problem.

Can you use the air bag to level it, sure, why not. the air bag is just acting like another spring.. But climb under there and check for a broken spring leaf. if one broke, others may not be far behind.

ALSO - Get someone to drive the truck, and you follow behind it, make sure its not dog legging (going down the road sideways)

John Mc

88 Dolphin 4 Auto

[zero]

My first question is does anyone know what brand/model air bag I have, from the past owner the bag is 8 to 10 years old, it

is 8.5 inches long (uninflated, not counting the metal bracket and 3 inches wide.

If you have Firestone Ride Rite kit # MT-1025-F or 1130 . . Firestone # 224C is the replacement bellows. They were used in 72-90 Mazda trucks, 80-93 Dodge Ram 50s, 69 and up Nissan/Datsun/Toyotas, etc.

Contrary to what some people are claiming - they are made for permanent installation and if needed - to solve a full-time problem like too much weight. If they are installed with separate fill lines - you can custom tailor the height side-to-side.

Many Toyota RVs do not have them and do OK but . . . it's one heck of a load on those little springs and tiny spring perches.

[zero]

Here are what some beefed up springs look like that don't need air-bags. Also what the OEM stock Toyota spring pack looks like.

[zero]

My first question is does anyone know what brand/model air bag I have, from the past owner the bag is 8 to 10 years old, it

is 8.5 inches long (uninflated, not counting the metal bracket and 3 inches wide.

I didn't notice your photo until now. That is not a Firestone Ride-Rite. It looks similar to a Firestone Work-Rite bag. As far as I know, Firestone never offered Work-Rite kits for Toyota trucks. So - I assume either it is not a Firestone - or someone made it fit your rig and it was made for some other application.

It you want air-bags - a complete new Ride-Rite kit is probably the way to go. You can buy and entire kit for the cost of two new replacement bags.

As to your problem with being cockeyed? Obviously, you've got a weight-distribution problem - or a spring problem - or a frame problem. When it is sitting cockeyed - take a tape measure and measure the distance of your rear axle to the frame. See if one spring pack is more collapsed then the other. Leaf springs get tired over time and lose their arch. A sudden shock like a deep pothole can also snap a few leaves in half. Some spring shops will take tired springs and "re-arch" them with a heat-treating process. With the cost of labor now-adays, it is rarely worth it. New springs are fairly cheap and adding a few new leaves as needed is pretty easy.

[Derek up North]

A few personal observations:-

I'm not sure if any of the manufacturers ever installed Air Springs as Standard Equipment. I only seem to recall them being listed among the Options. I'm sure many others had them added added by dealers, either when new or at a later date.

I don't remember reading anyone with Air Springs on their Toyota with a single fill point. All seem to have two, allowing side to side adjustment.

As far as I know, Firestone no longer offers a kit specifically for Toyota Motorhomes. I think the nearest available is the kit for the Toyota Tacoma (or was it the T100?) which might or might.not install without some modification.

Finally, please stop taking shots at each other. Remember, pobody's nerfect. Not even on the internet.

[zero]

The Firestone kits for the older Toyota trucks and RVs are still available. I've also seen a few with a "common" fill. It is noted in this ad. Some people choose that comon-fill option for reasons I'm not privy to.

http://www.sdtrucksprings.com/index.php?main_page=product_info&products_id=4594&zenid=d1ceda09c5abe4222ecfd8b12691b2c5

[zero]

Firestone also offers the # 2116 kit for older pickups and the T100. It has air-bags that hold a higher pressure. Not sure what else is different.

[Jittney]

'My first question is does anyone know what brand/model air bag I have,My first question is does anyone know what brand/model air bag I have,'

And the question back is.....what vehicle do you have?

I just bought an 86 Novastar...with new air bags.

The PO (previous owner) had posted the vehicle on Craigslist with a broken right airbag.

He went through the expense of having new ones installed before the sale.

I have paperwork from the sale including a brochure from Firestone for Air Helper Springs

The part number for 86-94 Toyota 1 ton Dually & Micro Mini-Motorhome is #2001/2041.

The picture looks like the new airbags on the vehicle....so I'm guessing it's a match.

Interestingly enough, this motorhome also has a lean to the right......even after new airbags.

The lean is noticable in the front.

The right front torsion bar was tightened to lift the right front up 2 inches, but it's still lower than the left.

I have new Bilstein shocks (set of 4), but have not installed them yet.

I've been thinking of replacing the torsion bars while I'm doing the shocks.

Hope this helps.

Regards,

Susan

Edited September 1, 2013 by Jittney

[zero]

A few personal observations:-

I'm not sure if any of the manufacturers ever installed Air Springs as Standard Equipment.

Winnebago shows "air springs" under their standard specs.

[Derek up North]

Well, it's a good thing I said "I'm not sure if .." then, isn't it.

Yes, Firestone lists 'generic' Truck kits.

Air Lift, OTOH, has different Truck and Toyota Motorhome kits:_

http://www.sdtrucksprings.com/index.php?main_page=product_info&products_id=7078

http://www.sdtrucksprings.com/index.php?main_page=product_info&products_id=7242

And of course there's always 3-T with their motorhome only (I think) kits.

[zero]

The part number for 86-94 Toyota 1 ton Dually & Micro Mini-Motorhome is #2001/2041.

Maybe a discontinued part # from Firestone? I've got a catalog here from 10 years ago and also a new one (from Firestone Industrial). Neither have either of those numbers you mentioned.

My old catalog shows the MT1025 kit for 1969 to 1995 2WD Toyota trucks. My new catalog says the current # for MT1025 is Firestone Ride-Rite # 1130 and also shows it fitting 2WD 1969-1995 Toyota trucks. Kit # 2116 is for 4WD Toyota pickups and T100s.

[bufbooth]

Hello All...I just got done from crawling out from under my Toyota after being under it all day. Regarding my Air bags they are Firestone, but could not see the model name,

but they stated 20 lbs min., 100 lbs max, and mine are installed with two seperate air valves (that is one valve for each bag so that I can put different air pressures in each bag), which I believe is an Odyssey factory standard since I have seen two other 1990/1991 Odysseys with the same exact setup, even the same air pressure labels.

On a side note, they are also marked Carmel, IN (I live in Carmel, IN!).

I did figure out why one was hitting the shock, the air bags were installed on the wrong side. My set actually has a left and right side.

The air bag is 3.5 inches wide and it is mounted on a 4 inch square plate that is welded to a U-shaped bracket that slides over the leaf springs, however, this 4-inch plate

is not centered on the U-shaped bracket, that is 1/4 inch overhangs one side and 3/4 inch overhangs the otherside, and both air bags are a mirror image. I switched

them today, that is I put the left side one on the right side and the right side one on the left, and they both now center perfectly and I have a 1/2 inch gap between the

shock and the air bag now (instead of them touching). Also, I could not just spin them 180 degree due to a welded on bracket that secures them to the axle.

Also, to possilbly explain why I have a passenger side lean, according to my scale measurements, my passenger rear tires have 400lbs more weight then the driver's

side. This is probably do to having the closet, gas tank, outside storage unit, and a full size (two seperate doors) refig all on the passenger side and on/behind the

rear axle. The air bag that was rubbing has some rubber off, but it appears to not have any thread damage, I currently have it on and put in 80lbs to test it and it

has been holding air all day and the rubbed area looks good. The rubber coating is actually pretty thin on these air bags, I am going to get some rubber sealant or

shoe goo to give it a protective layer (just have a 1/2 by 1 inch area to be covered).

Dennis...

[Jittney]

Congrats on resolving the rubbing issue

[zero]

Hello All...I just got done from crawling out from under my Toyota after being under it all day. Regarding my Air bags they are Firestone, but could not see the model name,

but they stated 20 lbs min., 100 lbs max, and mine are installed with two seperate air valves (that is one valve for each bag so that I can put different air pressures in each bag), which I believe is an Odyssey factory standard since I have seen two other 1990/1991 Odysseys with the same exact setup, even the same air pressure labels.

On a side note, they are also marked Carmel, IN (I live in Carmel, IN!)

I see in the Odyssey literature that the air-suspension came as standard equipment, just as it did in the Winnebagos. Maybe it was an easy way to fix the varying balance and overload problems? 400 lbs. is a lot. But with options like outside awnings, electric generator, aux. battery, etc. - I guess it's not easy go get one consistently in balance. I've had a hard time balancing my Chinook and getting it to sit level. I finally put one extra leaf in the low side and now it sits perfect.

Firestone "Industrial" got into the suspension business when they bought out a small company in Indiana and started making air-suspension for buses that totally eliminated the steel springs. Now much of the air suspension parts are made in China and India.

By the way, in regard to leaks - Firestone says 4 PSI leakage a week for a new air bag is considered "normal." So anything less is a bonus. I have three sets and all mine have always had slow leaks. (from the bags, not the lines or fittings).

[bufbooth]

Regarding the 400lbs...my toyota was weighed when it was half loaded.

[bufbooth]

I finished getting the air bags swapped and was able to find out the model of them, the logo was still on the other one,

they are Firestone AirSleeve TTT 3-T. I also finished the job of putting new rear brake drums on, new rear brake shoes,

new axle seals, and bleed the brake lines. I had a hard time getting the rear brake shoes adjusted though the bottom

rear adjuster access hole, but finally found a tool that made the job easy and without having to take the tires off. I used

an electric box cross bar (35 cents at the hardware store). It was the perfect length, just a little bit narrower than the

access hole. Due to its width it never misses catching the brake sprocket adjuster. Attached is a picture of it.

[fred heath]

Here are what some beefed up springs look like that don't need air-bags. Also what the OEM stock Toyota spring pack looks like.

JD,

You can add 100 springs if you want to. It will stiffen the ride but do nothing to correct rear sag.

The axle sits above the top leaf. You either need to add an air bag to elevate the coach or install extended shackles in the rear.

I found 3" of shackle extension gave me about 1.5" of body lift.

[DanAatTheCape]

1) I replaced an airbag on my 93 winnie warrior - got it from 3-Ts

3-T's RV Products, Inc.

1055 Empire Drive

Lake Havasu City, AZ 86404

928-453-3040 fax 928-453-3140

2) It should not matter if the axle is mounted on the top of or the bottom of the springs - increase the arch & you get taller. Springs often do sag over time.