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Problem in Utah with heat and elevation-engine shuts down


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Yesterday while driving through Utah from Salt Lake City and on my way to San Francisco my 86 mini-winnie (22rec efi) started getting a little hotter than usual (temp gauge). Then about 20 miles from the border I started seeing a pattern of the flashing (engine check) light. There was a pattern of 5 blinks followed by a short pause. So as I approached an exit just before the Nevada border the engine went dead and would not restart initially. I ate lunch and allowed the vehicle to cool and it restarted. We were very fortunate to have made it across the long span from Salt Lake City.

The friendly fellow at the gas station where I was stranded informed me that it was likely that it was caused by diluted antifreeze. He claims that in this area you need full strength antifreeze and possibly an adjustment to carb. He did not know that I have efi on mine so the efi does some adjusting (as I have heard on this forum).

So today I will drain my antifreeze solution and add full strength antifreeze and attempt to keep going. Since Nevada has long stretches of desert I will rent an escort car which my wife will use to follow me. Last night I contacted AAA to come and tow us to a dealer so we will not find ourselves stranded in a remote location with a possibility of no cell service. They said they were having problems and no one showed up for 3 hrs. I called and canceled and I am now going to get a rental vehicle for my wife to use to escort this vehicle to our destination which is about 600 miles from here.

I am going to drain the radiator add full strength solution and head out again with an escort so I can get this unit back to PA hopefully.

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NO NO. The best and most efficient coolant is pure WATER. Antifreeze will reduce the btu carrying capacity of the coolant. Modern antifreezes job is to protect the engine from freezing when its parked in cold weather, that would be fatal to the engine.

A side benefit of anti freeze is that it raises the boiling point of the coolant that and a pressure cap will keep the engine from overheating.

What hurts an overheated engine is NOT the heat, but the fact that there are pockets of boiling water in the engine. Steam conducts much less heat than water. So the engine keeps getting hotter and more steam pockets form and soon some breaks from the heat.

Did you ever use the paper clip to down load the engine error codes from the computer. You MUST do this to see what the engine is trying to tell you. Failure to do this could leave you with a broken engine instead of a simple fix. Go here for the how to.

http://www.4crawler.com/4x4/CheapTricks/TroubleCodes/#Early22RE 5 blinks is an Oxygen sensor

Does your brake warning light work, if it does is it blinking with the warning light?? You could have a bad alternator.

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I agree with WME. Having the code will help in figuring out whats going on. unless the needle went into the red, you probably just ran hotter than normal. (Mine will typically run 2/3 when its hoot outside, otherwise it hangs around 1/3.

I think the Alt could cause the Check Eng lite to come on, low voltage could cause the engine to quit, but if the battery is this low, you would not be able to to crank the engine, nor would it start until you recharged the battery.

Low fuel pressure could cause a "lean", this could be caused by plugged fuel filter, but the engine should have re-started. Vapor lock, na, very very rare on EFIs that use a pressure regulator and return to tank.

No code will kill the engine, i.e. a bad O2 sensor may cause it to run crappy. but should not kill the engine

I suspect you have a cross fire, misfire or something like a crank sensor that takes a dump when it gets hot.

The Service engine light seems like its correlated, so get the code.

JOhn Mc

88 Dolphin 4 Auto

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Yup just don't know what your thinking. You were having engine problems in Wyoming. Cost to check code is very little and even if you had to replace you O2 sensor that would still be only a couple of hundred bucks. Compared with losing the engine entirely? There is no other option. Stop and get it checked out immediately.

Linda S

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The friendly fellow at the gas station where I was stranded informed me that it was likely that it was caused by diluted antifreeze. He claims that in this area you need full strength antifreeze

What was this nice guy smoking before you got there? Pure antifreeze (undiluted) is never supposed to be used in any auto since it only has near half the cooling ability of pure water. 50/50 "dilution" is the most common max mix unless you live somewhere that gets down to 70 degrees below zero. The purpose of antifreeze is to prevent freezing, raise the boiling point, and act as an anti-corrosive for aluminum parts. It's a trade-off since it also is a lousy heat remover.

Grab a piece of wire and jump the two terminals in your code port and count the blinks. No code reader necessary. Can't say it will tell you what's wrong -but hopefully will steer you in the right direction.

If it dies again - check to see if the engine is lacking fuel or lacking spark. That will narrow things down a lot. A bad oxygen sensor can't make it quit like that.

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  • 5 months later...

I believe that I am having a Vapor Lock problem.

Although everything I can find says that this should not be a problem with fuel injection,

Yesterday was the third time. Parked for a half hour or so after a couple hours on the road. Engine started, very roughly, and limped for a moment before dying. After that, the engine may kick once, then just spins. Nada.

The other times, I just waited for a while, and the engine would start and run quite normally.

Yesterday, I cracked the fitting for the cold-start injector, and had nothing but air (vapor) bleed out of the fitting for quite a while. Still would not start right away. Cannot see a good way to bleed the fuel rail. Waited for a while, changed out of my ski clothes, called the lady, etc. As soon as I hung up the phone, I tried it again and it fired right up. Running great again.

So it has to be a vapor lock.

Fuel pump has been replaced a couple years ago. The engine runs fine. Starts on the 1st, 2nd or 3rd revolutions on a normal start.

Solutions? I don't see any good way to wrap the fuel lines and manifold. The fuel filter sits right on the engine. Insulate that too?

Thanks.

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Its impossible to vapor lock the 22RE. The Fuel pump (in the tank) is pushing fuel thu the lines, and the fuel pressure regulator returns fuel back to the tank, so you will always have fuel in the lines, and it should be under pressure. (about 40psi). For the 22RE to vapor lock, the fuel in the rail would need to be boiling faster that the fuel pump can deliver fuel to the rail. Under zero pressure, maybe, but not at 40psi.

If you cracked the cold start fitting and got nothing, that tells me the fuel pump is not running,

OR the filter is so clogged and not letting anything thru.

OR, you mentioned cold, Water in the fuel line is freezing and blocking fuel.

I suspect fuel pump not running or ice.

Jumper the fuel pump test connection. This will bypass the MFS fuel pump switch and the fuel pump cutoff relay and force the fuel pump to run whoever the ignition key is ON.

If you jumper the test connector and turn the ignition ON, you should be able to hear the pump running.. If you listen under the hood, you'll also hear fuel squishing past the regulator.

John Mc

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Its impossible to vapor lock the 22RE. The Fuel pump (in the tank) is pushing fuel thu the lines, and the fuel pressure regulator returns fuel back to the tank, so you will always have fuel in the lines, and it should be under pressure. (about 40psi). For the 22RE to vapor lock, the fuel in the rail would need to be boiling faster that the fuel pump can deliver fuel to the rail. Under zero pressure, maybe, but not at 40psi. The problem developed while it was parked, pump off, probably a little over 30 minutes. I had just driven about 100 miles with no issues. Mostly downhill, so the engine was running at normal temps. After it did start, it ran fine again the rest of the 60 miles home.

If you cracked the cold start fitting and got nothing, that tells me the fuel pump is not running, When I cracked the fitting, I got a whoosh of pressurized air/vapor. When the fluid arrived, I tightened the fitting to stop the fuel as it squirted out. If I had zero pressure, I would definately suspect the fuel pump. That was my method when the prior pump failed on me.

OR the filter is so clogged and not letting anything thru. Fuel filter has about 20K on it. It should be OK. No fuel starvation at highway speeds or hard uphill.

OR, you mentioned cold, Water in the fuel line is freezing and blocking fuel. Not likely frozen. Prior two times were in the daytime in California's central valley. Long way from freezing.

I suspect fuel pump not running or ice.

Jumper the fuel pump test connection. This will bypass the MFS fuel pump switch and the fuel pump cutoff relay and force the fuel pump to run whoever the ignition key is ON.

If you jumper the test connector and turn the ignition ON, you should be able to hear the pump running.. If you listen under the hood, you'll also hear fuel squishing past the regulator. Yes, I could hear the fuel pump running when I installed the jumper.

John Mc

I can see no other way that pressurized air/vapor could enter the system. It definately was pressurized.

At all other times, the little engine is running fine. No problems. Over 122K miles. Ran great once it finally started.

I am considering installing a pressure gauge in the fuel system. Safer than cracking the fitting open, too.

But I had a running pump and pressure. And a lot of vapor before the fuel started squirting.

I can see no other conclusion.

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Jumper the fuel pump test connector to make sure the fuel pump is really running.

If you have a blockage in the fuel system that is limiting fuel flow to the rail, or the pump isn't running, its possible (and likely) the fuel could be going to vapor in the rail until the rail is cooled down a little. If you have good fuel flow, the fuel will not be able to go to vapor inside the rail because its to cool and under pressure.

You could have a clogged fuel filter or iced fuel line that is severely restricting fuel into the rail.

If your positive the pump is running, its fairly easy to remove the return line at the tank, and see if you have fuel being returned.

A good fuel flow thru the return line will yield about a pint every 60 to 90 seconds.

Unfortunately, there is no test connector on the fuel rail, but I would suggest anyone who has the time or has the fuel rail removed, drill a 1/8 pipe thread on the end, and either cap it, or install a fitting in it for future testing.

John Mc

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You need a banjo fitting adapter to check fuel pressure. I would not install a fuel pressure gauge that is inviting problems that you don't need like possibility of fuel leaks normal operating fuel pressure is around 35 PSI any thing much below that it will either run very poorly or not at all. As John said you can't vapor lock a EFI fuel system the pump delivers far more fuel than the engine uses most is returned to the fuel tank that problem kind of went away with electric fuel pumps. Like John said you can check the return flow but that is not as accurate as a fuel gauge because the regulator it's self could be the problem. Fuel pressure is very important it is the only thing in a fuel injection system that is constant every thing else is variable. Not long ago I changed a fuel filter on my friends 87 toy home it was the one that came from the factory it was not plugged yet but it was plenty restrictive if nothing else that's hard on pumps.

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I hate intermittant problems. I'll take a clean failure every time.

I am going to do the output test next. I also have a gas filter I was going to install, then the pump failed and they changed the filter for me. I'll do a before and after flow test.

If the pump is doing this correct over-supply, wouldn't it push the vapor out of the system rather quickly? Maybe not in the cold start tube, but surely the fuel rail would be quickly refreshed, giving me clear fuel in the rail.

Thanks for the help.

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If the pump is doing this correct over-supply, wouldn't it push the vapor out of the system rather quickly? Maybe not in the cold start tube, but surely the fuel rail would be quickly refreshed, giving me clear fuel in the rail.

Exactly, thats why its impossible to vapor-lock an EFI system. The pump supplys about 70 psi at high volume. The regulator regulates this down to about 38psi by diverting fuel back to the tank. This constant flow of cool fuel into the rail prevents the fuel from vaporizing inside the rail.

If you have a new pump and new filter, I would verify the pump is running. If the pump doesn't run, fuel in the rail will behave the same way a bottle of soda behaves. if you relieve the pressure in the rail by cracking the bango fitting, you lower the pressure in the rail, thus lowering the boiling point of the fuel, it then boils and squirts out the banjo fitting in the form of a gaseous foamy stuff instead of nice liquid.

The exact same thing happens when the fuel injectors pulse. Instead of doing a nice squirt of liquid, they do this squirt of gaseous foamy stuff. The gaseous foamy stuff is probably 1/10 the density of liquid gasoline, so the corresponding fuel/air ration is very, very low and cannot support ignition..

John Mc

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Look carefully for any cracks / leaks in that big air tube that runs behind the radiator. It comes from the Mass flow sensor, driver side fender, on top of the air filter, to the Intake throttle body on the engine.

The Mass Flow sensor is a big air vain. When your cranking the engine, the air that your engine is sucking in moves this air vain. A set of switch contacts in the MFS then turn on the fuel pump. If the vain isn't moving far enough, the fuel pump will not run. If there are any leaks in the hoses, the vain may not move far enough to turn on the fuel pump. ( This is why I recommend using the test connector to force the pump to run)

You also have a Fuel "Circuit Opening Relay". If this relay is defective / intermittent, it can also cause your problem. Again, using the fuel pumps bypass test connector will bypass this item..

John Mc



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The cold start injector is not modulated pretty much the same thing as one might expect to see an injector do at WOT it just opens and is temperature dependent. It is the highest point any air will end up there but will quickly be forced out when you crank a cold engine. Heat is what caused vapor lock way back when, it did not happen when things were cold. .

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When you try to find problems with anything you need to be systematic there are many things that can go wrong and one of the worst things you can do is throw parts at it. Fuel alone will not make an engine run it has to be able to get into the engine and it has to have something to make it light. Compression in your case is not an issue you either have it or you don't. I am a firm believer in knowing what your fuel pressure is, otherwise I would not have bought a $350 gauge set. I have seen the results of loose high pressure gasoline it was not pretty. It also will eliminate all kinds of unknown things if it is correct. If the pressure is correct move on because it means the fuel delivery is fine. If it isn’t you need to find out why. John suggested some checks that can be made to ensure that the pump is running I’ll add one more. If you remove the intake air tube you can stick your finger inside the mass air flow meter and push open the air vane with the key on that should start the pump and again it would be nice to watch the pressure gauge. Some auto parts stores will lend/rent tools. Beyond that is the injection system and the ignition.

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I have always contended that I know enough to be dangerous. On many subjects.

This is some great troubleshooting info.

I do drive "the Runt" at least once per day. (Not that my dogs are spoiled, but they do enjoy getting out, so I pretty much take them everywhere with me.) So this is happening in 1% of my startups. Never on original startups, but at some stop in the middle of the day. And not at a time when the engine is running hot.

If I was supposed to see foamy gas from the vapor locked condition, than that is a strike against vapor lock, as it was 'dry' air coming out of the fitting. No wet spot on the paper towel until I had liquid fuel arrive. But I only looked at this after it had 'started', run roughly for a few seconds before dying, and after quite a few start attemps. The more I think, the more I get confused. I need to do some tests. Something is failing, somewhere, occasionally.

I should have time to look at it today, with the grandkids on their way home now.

6 adults and 12 kids sleeping here on Christmas night. Really don't get to see them enough.

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I of the school of thought that about all it can be is the regulator. With the engine off there should still be pressure in the system. If the regulator is leaking the pressure will bleed down and could let the fuel boil as the engine heat soaks when its turned off.

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The pump is in the bottom of the tank it is all ways under the fuel unless you run out of gas so there is no way it will pick up air the fuel actually goes directly through the pump motor it's self. If the regulator is leaking pressure down the fuel pressure is not high enough for the engine to run. It will not vapor lock it is not like a carburetor the injectors open even if there is no fuel they are electrically operated they will pass air/vapor instantly providing room for fuel as long as it's there. You should have fuel in no more that a second or two even if the system has leaked down and lots of it if you opened a high pressure line. Many years ago I taught for Bosch (yes Toyota's 22RE system is Bosch licensed) when some one called with a question my first question was "what is the fuel pressure?" Often they would say "enough" my response was "how many PSI's enough"? If you don't have around 35 PSI with in a second or two some thing is wrong you will never know with out a gauge.

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pure water cools better but antifreeze raises the boiling point... I would leave it at 50/50

knowing the check engine code could be quite useful.

I suspect that the high heat could be causing some component to fail - temporarily.

First hand account: while operating a 92 toy with V6 in the Aspen area on warm summer days (altitude equates to more temp - 75 degrees at 8,000 ft is like a much hotter days at lower elevations) we were starting up, driving around, stopping for 10-20 minutes over & over. Then went up to independence pass - the car started misfiring so bad that we had to pull over. a few hours later all was well. A week or so later had similar scenario near steamboat. Poured about a gallon of water around the peripheral of the engine - it started running just fine. I assume we had some weak component which failed under high temps. Never repaired anything - toy ran great until I wrecked it into a semi years later.

Comment on "vapor lock" - at higher elevations more fuel is bypassed back to tank - fuel that has been warmed as it circulates down the fuel rail (where high pressure fuel is available to the injectors). Since less fuel is injected at higher elevations more bypass. Try removing gas cap in such scenarios - the air that escapes will be warmer than normal.

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