Need ideas for replacing little stock fridge with taller "apartment" style AC fridge please

[Stevo]

Thanks again for all of your information.

1) If I get the Avanti AC fridge then I was thinking of building a cabinet around it that would be insulated with about 5" of foam including the front door. Do you have any idea how much that would extend the charge of two deep cycle batteries running in hot 90 degree weather?

2) Besides the cost, is there any downside to replacing the stock alternator on a 1982 Toyota 22R with a high output alternator? Does the engine have to work harder to turn a high output alternator, thus less mpg?

3) Even though I'm not much for chest fridges those Sundanzers look really efficient. I like the huge 8.1 cubic foot DCR225. Too bad it costs $1400 plus shipping. I set up a search for a used one with the craigslist app on my ipad so we shall see.

JD - Your photos of cutting and storing the big ice blocks is cool. With all the energy independence stuff you have going on, I'm going to assume you guys would make good well prepared neighbors during SHTF situations.

[zero]

Thanks again for all of your information.

1) If I get the Avanti AC fridge then I was thinking of building a cabinet around it that would be insulated with about 5" of foam including the front door. Do you have any idea how much that would extend the charge of two deep cycle batteries running in hot 90 degree weather?

2) Besides the cost, is there any downside to replacing the stock alternator on a 1982 Toyota 22R with a high output alternator? Does the engine have to work harder to turn a high output alternator, thus less mpg?

3) Even though I'm not much for chest fridges those Sundanzers look really efficient. I like the huge 8.1 cubic foot DCR225. Too bad it costs $1400 plus shipping. I set up a search for a used one with the craigslist app on my ipad so we shall see.

JD - Your photos of cutting and storing the big ice blocks is cool. With all the energy independence stuff you have going on, I'm going to assume you guys would make good well prepared neighbors during SHTF situations.

I bought my 5.8 cubic foot Sundanzer new for $800. Just before the prices went up. A month after I got it, my neighbor shot it with a .22 rifle while chasing a woodchuck. He felt bad and gave me $200 - even though the refrigerator still worked fine. It's got one heck of deep dent in it but the .22 bullet did not go through. So, in all - my Sundanzer cost me $600.

There is no change in fuel mileage from installing a larger alternator with normal use and driving. An alternator regardless if a 45 amp or a 200 amp is only going to match system demand and only make what power is needed. Since most of these Toyotas have single V-belt drive - a single V-belt lacks traction to power an alternator over 80-90 amps. So, if you installed a 120 amp alternator, you could not use it at that full capacity. The belt would slip. The nice thing about a big alternator is that it makes lots of charge current at engine idle speed. A CS144 GM alternator can make around 50-60 amps with the engine idling. The OEM 45 or 60 amp Toyota's come with can make around 25-30 amps at engine idle.

In regard to insulation? You can super-insulate all of it. The part with the exposed grill has to have venting. I'l guess and say you can cut the power usage by doubling or tripling the insulation. I have two doors on my AC frige setup in one of my RVs. The added door with 2" of foam comes off when we are parked and using the refrigerator. It clips over the original door.

[zero]

In regard to insulation? You can super-insulate all of it. The part with the exposed grill has to have venting.

Correction. "Can" was supposed to be "cannot" as in "you cannot super-insulate all of it."

[Stevo]

Karin - Since I'm going to gut the interior I'll be glassing anything on the sides of the Sunrader shell closed that doesn't need to be open including the front windows. Fiberglassing is easy for me. Its the electrical stuff that gets my head spinning. Those Engels have a good reputation but are very expensive and I already have an 83 quart Edgestar chest fridge but I'd like to have something with more room since I'll be boondocking a lot in Baja and other points south. I juice 4 to 5 times a week so being able to refrigerate produce is important and takes space which is why I'm thinking I'll probably need something at least 6 cubic feet.

JD - Hah hah, so your Sundanzer has some character to it now after getting blasted by a 22! Geez, thats a bummer that a Toyota 22R can't handle a high output alternator. Kinda surprised about that too.

I'm open to ideas as its important I figure this out now since I'm hoping things will move a lot faster once I start working on the inside. I was also looking at these AC chest freezers at Walmart http://tinyurl.com/bmqkben and specificaly this 8.7 cubic foot Danby http://tinyurl.com/cbwk7fu for only $300. I don't know how much energy those cheap chest freezers use yet but perhaps something like that could work as a fridge with an inverter and a thermostat to keep it at fridge temps of 37 degrees? This guy shows how he runs his AC chest freezer as a fridge: http://johnlvs2run.wordpress.com/2009/10/08/chest-fridge-conversion/

[zero]

Many people living off-grid who did not want to spend big bucks on Sundazer type refrigerators have used Crosly chest freezers with external thermostats which make them work as refrigerators. It's supposed to be a cheap alternative for a low power use, high efficiency refrigerator. I haven't done it myself since I got my Sundanzer pretty cheap (on a relative scale).

Here's a chart from Sundanzer about solar panel sizing:

http://www.sundanzer.com/Prod_Info_files/residential_system_sizing.pdf

Small refrigerators are never as efficent as larger ones. Not enough bulk to retain "cold" when opened.

Sundanzer makes a smaller upright - model DCR134. It can be found for $850-$900 which is not cheap. 4.7 cubic foot. 33" high by 23.5" wide by 26" deep. Uses 38 amp-hours for a 70F day, 60 amp-hours on a 90F day, and 1,050 amp-hours on a 110F day.

I suggest you go to this link and then click on "BW catalog 2013" and download the PDF. Then go to page 188 and read up on efficient refrigeration. It's the Backwoodssolar company. Great outfit I've dealt with for years. Lots of great and free info.

http://www.backwoodssolar.com/

About auto and truck alternators. A single V-belt cannot power much over 80 amps for long on any vehcile. It takes twin V-belts or a flat ribbed belt. On Toyota 2.2s or 2.4s, I don't know of any easy way to install a two-groove pulley on the engine for the alternator drive but can't say I've tried. I installed my CS144 to have 50-60 amps of charge current a low engine speeds and not for the max charge capacity. Stock alternators on Toyotas make a max of 45 amps or 60 amps with the engine running fast.

[Stevo]

Karin - Not that I plan on spending much time in areas with room temperatures below freezing but if I did I would just turn the thing off. What happens if its running in below freezing temps? I read that if you operate these as a fridge that you need to pull everything out once a week and wipe down the interior because not freezing causes condensation. Yes thank you, after I posted this I saw those controllers on eBay and Amazon that simplify the conversion. I also read that its probably better to use a controller without a digital thermometer because some of those don't work well with certain inverters. They used a separate thermometer like you suggested and I have a couple battery operated digital thermometers I bought on eBay for about $3 each and they have been working great. Your idea of partitioning a small area as a freezer apparently didn't work on my Edgestar according to experiments done by some at the expo forum but that would be great if I could create a small space in one of these for the occasional pint of ice cream or to make a beer get colder faster. What a luxury it would be to boondock on a remote beach in Mexico or Central America and eat Cherry Garcia frozen yogurt (assuming I can even find it there)!

JD - I downloaded backwoodssolar's PDF catalog and will go through it this weekend. Thanks for the link.

I looked around online for high output alternators for my 1982 22R and found two kits for a 120 amp alternator http://tinyurl.com/cggjrt8 for $275 and a 140 amp alternator http://tinyurl.com/b3nayon for $350. I called and they said both will work perfectly on my vehicle and will crank out that amperage even while idling. They both use Delco alternators. I called back and found out they carry a kit without the alternator and wire for only $40 http://tinyurl.com/cb4thsq with a list of 5 alternators that will fit on it. This is great news!

[Stevo]

Hey thats a great idea Karin - thank you!

[zero]

Karin - Not that I plan on spending much time in areas with room temperatures below freezing but if I did I would just turn the thing off. What happens if its running in below freezing temps? I read that if you operate these as a fridge that you need to pull everything out once a week and wipe down the interior because not freezing causes condensation. Yes thank you, after I posted this I saw those controllers on eBay and Amazon that simplify the conversion. I also read that its probably better to use a controller without a digital thermometer because some of those don't work well with certain inverters. They used a separate thermometer like you suggested and I have a couple battery operated digital thermometers I bought on eBay for about $3 each and they have been working great. Your idea of partitioning a small area as a freezer apparently didn't work on my Edgestar according to experiments done by some at the expo forum but that would be great if I could create a small space in one of these for the occasional pint of ice cream or to make a beer get colder faster. What a luxury it would be to boondock on a remote beach in Mexico or Central America and eat Cherry Garcia frozen yogurt (assuming I can even find it there)!

JD - I downloaded backwoodssolar's PDF catalog and will go through it this weekend. Thanks for the link.

I looked around online for high output alternators for my 1982 22R and found two kits for a 120 amp alternator http://tinyurl.com/cggjrt8 for $275 and a 140 amp alternator http://tinyurl.com/b3nayon for $350. I called and they said both will work perfectly on my vehicle and will crank out that amperage even while idling. They both use Delco alternators. I called back and found out they carry a kit without the alternator and wire for only $40 http://tinyurl.com/cb4thsq with a list of 5 alternators that will fit on it. This is great news!

Maybe I have to watch what I say. A discussion of upgrade alternators came up on the Chinook forum and "Sunrader Bob" got furious with me - calling me all sorts of names before he bailed out. Funny how discussion of an alternator can evoke so much emotion. And maybe he runs these forums here? I don't know; just heard it mentioned once.

Maybe my take is different then some. I worked in an alternator and injection pump repair shop and some of my feelings are based on those experiences.

I also saw many upgrades put on heavy equipment and saw many that did not last near as long as the original setups. There is a lot of hype and BS involved.

Sunrader Bob likes the upgrade kits for Toyotas based on the old tech SI series. I do not. No "wrong" or "right' here. Just opinions. Mine are based on certain facts and my own work experence of repairing these things.

I have bought several brand new Delco CS130 or CS144 alternator for less then $150. I recently bought a new CS144 for $120. You just have to look around.

Some of the high amp kits for Delco alternators are BS and a waste of money. Many of the Toyota upgrade kits for a bolt-in alternator are based on very old technology Delco SI series alternators. An SI does not make the high current at low speeds that the newer CS series does. But the SIs are cheap and all over the place so many outfits sell them. I would not pay more then $30 for any 10SI or $50 for a 12SI. If a rare 18SI I'd pay a little more. Note that a 10SI is older tech then a 12SI. So if you pick an SI, get only a 12SI. A 10SI is substantially inferior but also common and cheap. So many sellers use them. 10SI has a steel fan whereas the 12SI has a plastic fan (to ID).

Alternators have evolved and make more power at lower speeds in smaller sizes. That's the gain you pay for in a newer unit. The Delco SIs (system Intergrated) came out in the late 70s. The CS stands for "charging system" and the number that follows is the outside diameter in mms. So a CS130 measures 130 mms and a CS144 measures 144 mms. Note that the CS series is also old now and can be found at reasonable prices. An even more compact series followed it that looks Chinese to me.

In my opinion -upgrading to most SI Delcos is a waste of money. You be better off sticking with some sort of Japanese Hitachi or Denso. A 70s Toyota has a 45 amp alternator and a mid-80s will have a 60 amp. The SIs only have one sealed ball bearing and have an open roller bearing the rear - which I do not like. The OEM Densos or Hitachis from Japan have dual sealed ball bearings. So to the later Delco CS alternators.

Many of the newest alternators are very compact but also - many have no regulators. They use the vehicle's computer to run.

Right now - the Delco CS-144 is by the far the #1 choice for retrofitting a high amp moderately compact alternator into an older vehicle. But - maybe an OEM 60 amp alternator off a Toyota 2.4 is all the upgrade you need?

As much as I don't like Ebay, sometimes it's a good place to find alternators with the "BUY IT NOW" option. Also - I've gotten some good deals from DB Electrical,but that varies.

http://www.dbelectrical.com/

Rock Auto is one of the few auto parts sellers that gets "old stock" new parts and sometimes has the best deals around -but you have to search by application.

I found a Delco 120 amp CS144 at Rock Auto for a 1988 Cadillac Seville for $64. It was a "wholesale closeout" rebuilt with NO exchange required. $70 outright.

Also a brand-new one for $124.

Note that newer alternators have flat-ribbed-belt pulleys. You have to remove and then add the V-belt pulley onto it. You also have modifiy engine mounts to fit.

[Stevo]

I started this thread saying that I didn't want to use a chest fridge because I don't like having to rummage through a pile of food to get what I want but I think I will have to go with one because my idea for using an AC fridge is going to use way too much energy.

I've been using a Kill-A-Watt to determine how many watts all the electrical stuff I want to put in my Sunrader uses and this is what I've come up with for a 24 hour period of time.

MINIMUM 24 HOUR USAGE

-DC Edgestar chest fridge: 450 watts

-Juicer: 60 watts

-iPad charger: 30 watts

-Cell phone charger: 6 watts

-Macbook Pro 17: 62 watts (2 hours)

TOTAL FOR 24 HOURS: 608 watts

MAXIMUM 24 HOUR USAGE

-DC Edgestar chest fridge: 450 watts

-AC blender: 333 watts

-iPad charger: 30 watts

-Cell phone charger: 10 watts

-Macbook Pro 17 with 25" external monitor: 660 watts (10 hours)

TOTAL FOR 24 HOURS: 1483 watts

SOLAR PANELS and BATTERIES: I was thinking of going with at least 500 watts in panels and 2 or 3 house batteries but after looking at that list I'm not sure now.

LIGHTS: I didn't include lights because I might use all LED's powered with rechargeable AA or AAA batteries. I also didn't include the energy needed to recharge those batteries because I don't know what it is yet.

FRIDGE: According to Edgestar my fridge is supposed to be 83 quarts or 3.24 cubic feet, but its only 59 quarts or 2.3 cubic feet inside! A third smaller! How could they be so wrong?! JD recommends the Sundanzer fridge because they are so stingy with the juice and I might have to replace the Edgestar with that. At the bottom of this page http://www.enviroharvest.ca/sundanzer.htm they are saying the Sundanzer DCR165 uses only 168 watts per day in 90 degree weather (Am I reading that wrong?!) and my Edgestar uses 450 watts in 50 to 80 degree weather. Also, unless Sundanzer is playing fast and loose with the dimensions like Edgestar is, their DCR165 is 5.8 cubic feet inside which is 3.5 cubic feet BIGGER than my Edgestar!

EXTERNAL MONITOR: I haven't compared energy usage between my current AC 25" external monitor and a DC monitor. If I discover a DC monitor is substantially less then I'll probably buy one.

QUESTIONS:

1) Since my energy usage is 700 to 1600 watts per day does that mean I'll need 700 to 1600 watts of solar panels? Aaargh.

2) How many batteries would I need to do that?

3) Would a modified sine wave inverter be okay for all the stuff listed? How many watts minimum should it be?

4) Any suggestions for paring down my energy usage will be appreciated!

Thanks

[zero]

JD recommends the Sundanzer fridge because they are so stingy with the juice and I might have to replace the Edgestar with that. At the bottom of this page http://www.enviroharvest.ca/sundanzer.htm they are saying the Sundanzer DCR165 uses only 168 watts per day in 90 degree weather (Am I reading that wrong?!) and my Edgestar uses 450 watts in 50 to 80 degree weather. Also, unless Sundanzer is playing fast and loose with the dimensions like Edgestar is, their DCR165 is 5.8 cubic feet inside which is 3.5 cubic feet BIGGER than my Edgestar!

EXTERNAL MONITOR: I haven't compared energy usage between my current AC 25" external monitor and a DC monitor. If I discover a DC monitor is substantially less then I'll probably buy one.

QUESTIONS:

1) Since my energy usage is 700 to 1600 watts per day does that mean I'll need 700 to 1600 watts of solar panels? Aaargh.

2) How many batteries would I need to do that?

3) Would a modified sine wave inverter be okay for all the stuff listed? How many watts minimum should it be?

4) Any suggestions for paring down my energy usage will be appreciated!

Solar panels only produce any useful power for 4-5 hours per day. A little more if they move and track the sun movement. You've expressed daily usage in watts which is a non-sequitor. Daily use would be measured in watt-hours or amp-hours. Your Kill-A-Watt meter will have a watt-hour read-out. Now when you say "1600 watts", I assume maybe you mean 1600 watt-hours in a day? If so, that is 66 watts steady per hour. At 12 volts that is a steady 5 1/2 amp draw, on average. Such a draw requires a battery bank with twice that capacity. A single BCI type 27 deep-cycle battery is good for 8 hours at that load (more or less). So for 24 hours you'd need three of them.

To meet a steady 5.5 amp per hour demand in a 24 hour day - you'd need 800-1000 watts in solar panels. Also note that on dark cloudy days, they will produce nearly nothing. This also varies by region and amount of solarization.

A battery bank should be sized to give you some reserve in case the sun does not show up. Usually enough batteries for at least one full day of zero sun.

in regard to modified-wave versus so-called 'true" sinewave? No difference for some uses. For others - it's a crap-shoot. Mod-wave is sometimes more efficient then sinewave - and vice-versa. Sinewave starts motors more efficienty and runs certain types of electronics better. Note also that most "sine-wave" inverters are NOT producing a real sine-wave. Not unless you pay $5000 for one.

I have a solar cabin that I run on two inverters. A 3000 watt mod-wave (Trace-Xantrex) and a 3000 watt sine-wave. I needed both for certain things. Sinewave is a must for GFI outlets and smoke/CO alarms. Also better for heavy motor starting. Mod-wave works better for other things - especially many battery chargers.

Most of my mod-waves are 95% efficient (max) and my sine-wave 92% efficient (max). The two very expensive 10,000 watt GENUINE sinewave inverters that run my house and farm (they must make perfect grid-type power) are only 88% efficient.

As to monitors - makes no difference if AC or DC at the monitor end. The type of power supply or inverter is where the loss can come in.

There is one special issue when running off of batteries and inverter(s). When there is a brief power surge - a 12 volt battery will often drop to 9 volts. That's normal and anything in a car or truck is designed to work well enough at 9 volts. When you hop in your Toyota and turn the key to crank the engine - everything drops to 9 to 9 1/2 volts unitl the engine starts. But -inverters will shut down when voltage drops below 10 1/2 volts -even if for just a millisecond. Keep that in mind. It is a reason why extra batteries are often need if you have any high-draw stuff - e.g. a microwave. Or - start the engine and send more amps to the system while using the big stuff.

[Stevo]

Karin - After reading your comment and thinking about it for 30 seconds I realized that the little bit I use my microwave oven for can be done on my stove (duh!) so I removed it from my list. I think I'll keep my electric juicer (60 watts) because I only use it a few times per week, but after seeing the bike powered blender I did a search for "hand cranked blender" and found this for $90 http://www.amazon.com/GSI-22365-Outdoors-Vortex-Blender/dp/B0000Z6JZU so that eliminates 330 watts!

[Stevo]

JD - The Kill-A-Watt model I have doesn't show Watt Hours. It shows AMPS, WATTS, VA, KWH, and the KWH's used for as long as the appliance has been plugged into it.

I think I seriously screwed up some of the numbers before.

-The Kill-A-Watt said the Edgestar fridge used .45 KWH in the 24 hours it was plugged in so I said it used 450 watts in 24 hours. Is that considered to be 450 watt hours?

-The Kill-A-Watt said the blender was using 333 watts and it ran for 1 minute and I'm not sure how to calculate that??

-The Kill-A-Watt said the microwave oven used .02 KWH when I ran it for 70 seconds which according to this site http://www.rapidtables.com/calc/electric/kwh-to-watt-calculator.htm .02 KWH calculates to 241 watts. If I ran the microwave 4 times for 70 seconds each then that should be 4 X 241 watts = 964 watts. Is that correct?

-The Kill-A-Watt said my juicer used .01 KWH running for 10 minutes and I don't know how to calculate that either.

[zero]

JD - The Kill-A-Watt model I have doesn't show Watt Hours. It shows AMPS, WATTS, VA, KWH, and the KWH's used for as long as the appliance has been plugged into it.

I think I seriously screwed up some of the numbers before.

-The Kill-A-Watt said the Edgestar fridge used .45 KWH in the 24 hours it was plugged in so I said it used 450 watts in 24 hours. Is that considered to be 450 watt hours?

-The Kill-A-Watt said the blender was using 333 watts and it ran for 1 minute and I'm not sure how to calculate that??

-The Kill-A-Watt said the microwave oven used .02 KWH when I ran it for 70 seconds which according to this site http://www.rapidtables.com/calc/electric/kwh-to-watt-calculator.htm .02 KWH calculates to 241 watts. If I ran the microwave 4 times for 70 seconds each then that should be 4 X 241 watts = 964 watts. Is that correct?

-The Kill-A-Watt said my juicer used .01 KWH running for 10 minutes and I don't know how to calculate that either.

A "watt hour" is when one watt is used steady for one hour. A "KWH" is when 1000 watts is used steady for one hour.

A 12 volt refrigerator of medium size often uses 2 amps @ 12 volts per hour (24 watts per hour) on average. Less if super insulated.

Most microwaves use 12 amps @ 120 VAC when heating unless you've got an inverter-microwave made by Panasonic. That's around 1400 watts when actually heating. How long it draws that current depends on the heat setting and time you run it. A typical microwave when run at the full-heat setting draws a steady 1400-1500 watts. So, 1400 watts for one hour is 1400 watt-hours. That is 1.4 KWH. Run it for six minutes at full heat and is uses .14 KWH or 140 watt-hours if my math is correct.

One note about conventional microwaves. Just because they are buzzing and making noise does not mean they are heating. Most draw the same high current regardless if on a low or high heat setting. What changes is how often the heat slams on and off.