85Diesel Posted June 30, 2013 Author Share Posted June 30, 2013 I'll be using a Toyota 5-speed, probably an R-151 turbo tranny that I have in a parts truck here. They have a nice low first gear that will be perfect for the Sunrader. Mercedes seem to go for a premium out here on the west coast, very occasionally I see them that cheap though. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zero Posted June 30, 2013 Share Posted June 30, 2013 I'll be using a Toyota 5-speed, probably an R-151 turbo tranny that I have in a parts truck here. They have a nice low first gear that will be perfect for the Sunrader. Mercedes seem to go for a premium out here on the west coast, very occasionally I see them that cheap though. I assume on the west coast they don't get rusty. I've got a 79 Datsun 280ZX that came from Cost Mesa, CA. It's never seen a NY winter or a NY summer-salted road. If it did. it'd wind up in the junkyard pretty quick. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Maineah Posted July 1, 2013 Share Posted July 1, 2013 Horsepower ratings can be deceiving in anything - gas or diesel. Also - generally speaking - diesels make NO more torque then equal bore and stroke gas engines. The "high torque" claim is a myth. The reason why diesels are known for low-end torque is that most have long-stroke engines. A long stroke - using long connecting rods -works on the same principle as a long handle on a wrench. More leverage. Light duty gas engines, to the converse tend to have short strokes or are "square" (equal bore and stroke). When car makers staring introducing "light duty" short-stroke diesels -they lacked torque and horsepower. When turbos were added they became much more drivable. I can post hundreds of spec sheets on engines that are equal bore and stroke that come in gas or diesel versions. The gas engines always have at least equal torque at the same low RPM and always more horsepower. It's certainly true that some modern turbo/intercoolded diesels have fantastic torque. So would equally built gas engines if anybody wanted them - but they'd use more fuel. Well my TDI topped the gas engine by a good 50 FP @ 1800 RPM an other thing to think about is HP at highway speeds the diesel is going to win. Gas motors have to rev to make HP. Having had both gas and diesel Jettas the diesel had noticeably more torque it is no myth. By the way con rod length has nothing to do with stroke. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
85Diesel Posted July 1, 2013 Author Share Posted July 1, 2013 Yeah rust isn't much of an issue here. You can pretty much get away with not even painting metal, it just gets a bit of surface rust and that seems to protect the good metal beneath for many years. Where you do get crazy rust is right on the coast, from the salty air just off the ocean. My friend who lives on an island in northern B.C. goes through a Toyota frame every couple of years, despite any and all attempts at painting/preservation. Driving on the beach scavenging logs doesn't help with that of course. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zero Posted July 1, 2013 Share Posted July 1, 2013 Well my TDI topped the gas engine by a good 50 FP @ 1800 RPM an other thing to think about is HP at highway speeds the diesel is going to win. Gas motors have to rev to make HP. Having had both gas and diesel Jettas the diesel had noticeably more torque it is no myth. By the way con rod length has nothing to do with stroke. What exactly is your point? I stated that when engine haves equal bore and stroke, and equal aspiration - they make the same torque at the same RPMs and the gas makes more horsepower. Show us even one engine that defies that rule. Are you claiming to have had a VW TDI that topped a VW turbocharged gas engine with the same bore and stroke? If not, you are comparing "apples to oranges." Long stroke gives more leverage and if one of the major contributing factors for low RPM torque in a gas or diesel engine. And yes - the length of a connecting rod in itself does not determine stroke. Distance from the crank centerline to a crank throw centerline determines it. Since you claim stroke has nothing to do with torque -please tell us all what does. You'd also better tell GM that making the long stroke 292 straight-six or the Ford long-stroke 300 straight six was a big mistake. Yes, their engineers did it for torque at low RPMs. Tell us about the engines you know of that were offered in gas and diesel turbo versions, or gas and diesel non-turbo - where the diesel had better torque and horsepower. Bet you cannot name one. Don't compare a high boost diesel to a low or no boost gas engine. That renders the comparison useless. The fact remains that standard engine formats offered in gas or diesel are rare with autos. Much more common in industrial equipment. With autos - the late 70s Oldsmobile diesels are one example. Same aspiration and equal bore and stroke to a 350 gas Olds gas engine. Some others include 1.8 liter Isuzu gas and diesels. 1.6 VWs also as I recall. Also the diesel V8s used in 80s Ford HD pickups were also made in gas versions for school buses (446 c.i.). In all those - the torque curves were the same for gas and diesel and the horsepower was much higher on the gas versions. VW and Audi have a 1.8 gas engine with turbo that makes 296 horse @ 6000 RPM and 266 pound feet of torque @ 4000 RPM. Same gas engine makes 236 pound feet of torque @ 2300 RPM. 3.19" bore X 3.40" stroke. Not sure if they made any diesels with a matching bore and stroke and boost PSI. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zero Posted July 1, 2013 Share Posted July 1, 2013 an other thing to think about is HP at highway speeds the diesel is going to win. Gas motors have to rev to make HP. Having had both gas and diesel Jettas the diesel had noticeably more torque it is no myth. Yes, I claim it IS a myth. Post some actual facts to back up your statement. Long stroke makes torque and when gas engines have the same bore/stroke as diesels - the gas engines win as long as aspiration is the same with both. Long stroke gives more mechanical advantage just like sticking a piece of 2' pipe on the end of wrench handle to get more twisting force. 7.3 diesel in Ford trucks was made from the IH MV446 gasoline version for some medium duty trucks. Two engines, same bore and stroke and same aspiration. Ford-IH (Navistar) 7.3 diesel (446 cubic inches), no turbo: 185 HP @ 3000 RPM, 360 lbs. max TQ @ 1400 RPM. 4.1" and stroke 4.18" IH (Navistar) gasoline 7.3 (446 cubic inches), no turbo, 235 net hp at 3600 rpm, 8:1 compression ... 385 lbs. max torque at 2600 RPM, 4.125" bore x 4.18" stroke The following are spec on the Oldsmobile V8 diesels used in GM 1/2 ton pickup trucks and vans - along with the gasoline versions. Oldsmobile 5.7 (350) diesel - 120 HP @ 3600 RPM and 222 lbs. torque @ 1900 RPM Oldsmobile 5.7 (350) gas engine - 170 HP @3800 and 275 lbs of torque @ 2000. Both 4” bore X 3.38” stroke Farm and industrial tractor engines with equal sizes in gas and diesel (same bore and stroke): Hercules DD and GO engines (Oliver) 130 gas: 30 horse, 97 lbs. torque @1400 RPM 130 diesel: 30 horse, 96 lbs. torque @1200 RPM Hercules 133 c.i. engines (IXB and DIX4B) 133 gas 43 horse @ 2600 RPM, 96 lbs. torque @ 1800 RPM, 3 1/4" bore by 4" stroke. IXB engine. 133 diesel 45.5 horse @ 3000 RPM, 92 lbs. torque @ 1500 RPM, 3 1/4" bore by 4" stroke. DIX4B engine Continental 157 c.i. engines (G157 and GD157) 157 c.i. gas 37.7 horse @ 2000 RPM, 121 lbs. torque @ 2000 RPM. 3 3/8" bore X 4 3/8" stroke. 157 c.i. diesel 37.5 horse @ 2000 RPM, 109 lbs. torque @ 1200 RPM. 3 3/8" bore X 4 3/8" stroke. Waukesha 135 GK and DK engines: 426 c.i. gas: 138 horse @ 2400 RPM, 264 lbs. torque @ 1200 RPM. 4 1/4" bore by 5" stroke. 426 c.i. diesel: 140 horse @ 2400 RPM, 259 lbs. torque @ 1600 RPM. 4 1/4" bore by 5" stroke. Buda 153 c.i. engines (4B153 and 4BD153) 153 c.i. gas, 49 horse @ 2800 RPM, 112 lbs. torque @ 1500 RPM, 3 7/16" bore X 4 1/8" stroke. 153 c.i. diesel, 40 horse @ 2400 RPM, 102 lbs. torque @ 1400 RPM, 3 7/16" bore X 4 1/8" stroke. Here are a few examples of tractor engines with equal sized power ratings in gas and diesel with different sized engines - and also two equal sized in gas and diesel: John Deere 2010 (and 1010 with diesel version) Note that both 145 engines are equal bore and stroke, and the gas has more torque) 145 gas: 39 horse, 114 lbs. torque @ 1500 RPM 145 diesel: 36 horse, 95 lbs. torque @ 1500 RPM Those are specs published by Waukesha. 426 diesel runs a max torque of 259 lb. ft. at 1600 RPM. 426 gas runs 264 lb. ft. @ 1200 RPM Mack had a pile of long-stroke gas engines. 707 cubic inch gasoline Mack had 5" bore by 6" stroke. 232 horse @ 2100 RPM and 617 lbs. of torque @ 1200 RPM. 707 cubic inch diesel Mach had 5" bore by 6" stroke. 201 horse @ 2100 RPM and 602 lbs. of torque @ 1500 RPM. Mack's "little” 464 in gas and diesel: 464 gas engine, 464,cubic inches, 4 7/16" bore by 5" stroke, 185 horse @ 2800 RPM and 380 lbs. torque @ 1400 RPM 464 diesel engine, 464 cubic inches, 4 7/16" bore by 5" stroke, 140 horse @ 2600 RPM and 325 lbs. torque @ 1800 RPM Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wimpie Posted July 2, 2013 Share Posted July 2, 2013 I'll be using a Toyota 5-speed, probably an R-151 turbo tranny that I have in a parts truck here. They have a nice low first gear that will be perfect for the Sunrader. Mercedes seem to go for a premium out here on the west coast, very occasionally I see them that cheap though. I'm curious of transmission temperatures and coolers in sunraders. Also whats the ratios of that R-151 tranny? If I have stock nissan automatic, what temperatures should I be expecting? And how can I cool it if I wanted to? Aftermarket kit for that? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zero Posted July 2, 2013 Share Posted July 2, 2013 Aisin Transmissions in Toyotas: “Short” transmissions: 1978 L and W series are 20.8” long including bell-housing. L43, L45, L50, L52 are all the same 20.8” length and have a 21 spline output:W50 5 spd, 20R, 1975-86, 1st has 3.28 ratio, 75 mm X 20 mm input bearingL50 5 spd 1981-1982, 22R, has a 3.92 ratio 1st gear, 75mm x 19mm input bearingL52 5 spd 1983, 22R, 3.92 ratio in 1st gear, 80mm X 20 mm input bearing (best?) Longer 25.5” transmissions with 21 spline outputs : G52, 1984-86, 22R, 3.92 ratio in 1st gear, 80mm X 20 mm input bearing – open G54, 1986-88, 22R, 3.92 ratio in 1st gear, 80mm X 23 mm input bearing – sealed W56, 1986-95, 22RE, 3.95 ratio in 1st gear Longer 25.5” transmissions with 23 spline output R150F, 1992-2004 3.83 ratio in 1st gear R151F, 1986-1987, 4.31 ratio in 1st gear Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
85Diesel Posted July 2, 2013 Author Share Posted July 2, 2013 Check out this chart. A little easier to read. http://www.marlincrawler.com/tech/transmission/transmission-gear-ratio-chart Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
85Diesel Posted July 10, 2013 Author Share Posted July 10, 2013 One step closer. I found and bought a 1983, 145,000 mile mercedes five cylinder turbo-d today out of a smashed up coupe. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
85Diesel Posted January 25, 2014 Author Share Posted January 25, 2014 Well I just got one more step closer, sort of. Today I finished up a Mercedes OM617 turbo-diesel swap in a 91 4Runner. It's the same swap I want to do on my Sunrader this summer. My goal is to have the Sunrader up and running before next winter. The engine bay will look something like this: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stamar Posted January 25, 2014 Share Posted January 25, 2014 Diesel is fine for gas mileage but altering the reliability is a downgrade. Gas mileage of a motorhome is a estimate and its usually a misestimate. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stamar Posted January 25, 2014 Share Posted January 25, 2014 Theres a conversion to e85 for the 22re here onthe forum. For the most parte85 prices are set to beat diesel for v8 american van. In cost not in mpg. Consider it at a fraction of the cost. Then you really only have torque vs power. Honestly the 22re is not lqcking inbtorque its power Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Maineah Posted January 25, 2014 Share Posted January 25, 2014 I don't think I would call a Mercedes diesel unreliable. They generally go 300K before a rebuild. Diesels take to trucks like ducks to water due to their very strong torque right where you need it the most at low end instead of 4000RPM. Like any swap there is some assembly required so you had better be careful of what you wish for. The down side of diesels you cannot be lax about maintenance. The gas engine per displacement usually has more HP but the diesel torque range is all ways going to be the winner for something that needs it when the going gets tough, climbing hill etc. The diesel is more efficient at burning fuel due to its very high compression so it is reasonable to say you are going to gain about 30% in economy over the same displacement gas engine. More often than not they also will be turbo charged making them more suitable at altitude. If you are a tinkerer you can get immense HP from a diesel at the expense of fuel economy. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
getout Posted January 25, 2014 Share Posted January 25, 2014 Well I just got one more step closer, sort of. Today I finished up a Mercedes OM617 turbo-diesel swap in a 91 4Runner. It's the same swap I want to do on my Sunrader this summer. My goal is to have the Sunrader up and running before next winter. The engine bay will look something like this: That is one clean looking swap. Nicely done. It'll be fun to see that in the rader. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
linda s Posted January 25, 2014 Share Posted January 25, 2014 Yeah nice job. Sure looks like a tight fit Linda S Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
85Diesel Posted January 26, 2014 Author Share Posted January 26, 2014 Yeah it was really tight. I just barely managed to fit the radiator in without cutting the core support. The main problem was the oilpan to tie rod clearance with the 4WD IFS setup. It will be roomier with the solid front axle on my Sunrader. I think the 2WD drive IFS allows more clearance in that department too. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
linda s Posted January 26, 2014 Share Posted January 26, 2014 The diesel must weigh quite a bit more than the Toyota engine. Do you think it will cause any handling or steering problems. The Sunrader already has some extra weight on the front from the camper Linda S Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
85Diesel Posted January 26, 2014 Author Share Posted January 26, 2014 I haven't noticed any difference in handling in the 4Runner, even at 70mph. And I had to remove the steering stabilizer to make room for the oilpan. It shouldn't be a problem in the Sunrader either, especially since it has the stiffer leaf spring suspension up front. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rockatansky Posted January 31, 2014 Share Posted January 31, 2014 I fully support the merc diesel swap! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
85mirage Posted February 9, 2014 Share Posted February 9, 2014 Wow Nice job! would love to drive. Keep us posted.Positive everytime Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
85Diesel Posted June 1, 2015 Author Share Posted June 1, 2015 Well it's been a while but I'm finally getting around to this thing. Today I pulled the Chevy V6 and auto tranny and all its wiring. Hopefully I'll get that sold soon. Now I need to cut off the engine mounts and weld new ones in for the 3.0 Toyota diesel, then do some engine prep on it before I drop it in. Also have to re-convert it to a manual transmission, but that should be pretty easy since it was a manual originally. Don't know why the images are sideways and upside down. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
linda s Posted June 1, 2015 Share Posted June 1, 2015 Very cool that you found a KZ engine. I know at first you didn't think you could find one. Linda S Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
85Diesel Posted June 3, 2015 Author Share Posted June 3, 2015 A few have been popping up lately, I even found one that was already a five speed. I pulled the underbody grey and black water tanks, now I need to get some more metal joists to prop the sagging floor up. Also need to make some roof arches and get them fiberglassed in. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
85Diesel Posted November 8, 2016 Author Share Posted November 8, 2016 One micro step closer. Got a carport put up today and freed the rader from tarp hell! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
linda s Posted November 8, 2016 Share Posted November 8, 2016 Hey guy good to hear from you. So waiting to see this project come together. Get closer and I might just show up at your door to see it. I live closer now so there will be no getting rid of me. Going to be awesome Linda S Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Trailhead Posted January 6, 2017 Share Posted January 6, 2017 I just ran across this post. I would love to see your project as well ! I live close also, just north of Salem. I have an 85 sunrader 4x4, 86 turbo custom cab and a sweet stock 85 4runner. So cool to see all of the Toyota lovers on this site! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
85Diesel Posted January 10, 2017 Author Share Posted January 10, 2017 Trailhead, got some pics of your Sunrader? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Trailhead Posted January 18, 2017 Share Posted January 18, 2017 I can only find two that I can pull to this site. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
85shasta Posted September 2, 2017 Share Posted September 2, 2017 @85Diesel I know this is an old thread but any update? I'm just north of you in Redmond and there's an auction on some om617s coming up and I'd love to know if this is worth while. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
85Diesel Posted July 19, 2019 Author Share Posted July 19, 2019 Hey everyone, this project is now for sale! Message me for details. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Odyssey 4x4 Posted July 19, 2019 Share Posted July 19, 2019 1 minute ago, 85Diesel said: Hey everyone, this project is now for sale! Message me for details. nooooo why? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
85Diesel Posted July 19, 2019 Author Share Posted July 19, 2019 No time to deal with it. I'm converting my other truck into a full time camper though, getting a custom aluminum Sunrader size shell built onto the frame. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Odyssey 4x4 Posted July 19, 2019 Share Posted July 19, 2019 4 minutes ago, 85Diesel said: No time to deal with it. I'm converting my other truck into a full time camper though, getting a custom aluminum Sunrader size shell built onto the frame. Sounds sweet! Do you have an instagram for the build? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
85Diesel Posted July 19, 2019 Author Share Posted July 19, 2019 Not specifically for the build but it has some pics on it. @lassonlasson Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Join the conversation
You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.