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1990 Sunrader Remodel


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Where do you get your West System from? It always seems super expensive.

I buy all my epoxies fiberglass supplies and specialty hardware (including stainless) from Jamestown Distributors. They ship fast and have an amazing selection. I can't say if their prices are the best or not. I had a few problems with polyester resin not curing properly in my shop when it was 50 degrees. At that time I was just buying the standard fiberglass resin and hardener at a downtown NAPA store at $17 per quart. Buying epoxy in bulk now on-line isn't cheap but in my mind, worth the extra price. The epoxy has a very long shelf life. I have a quart on my shelf that is 7 year old and is still fine. Comes with a pump-dispenser which makes it real easy to use whenever you want it. No measuring or resealing containers. Just count the pumps from the resin jug and the hardener jug. They sell 2 or 3 brands of epoxy resins. West prices - 1 quart resin - $39, 1 pint hardener - $20. Mas prices - 1 quart resin - $35, 1 pint hardener - $30. From the same place, polyester resin is $24 for 1 quart (comes with the hardener).

http://www.jamestowndistributors.com/userportal/search_subCategory.do?categoryName=Epoxy%20Resin&category=589&refine=1&page=GRID

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For those new to FG, the use of the term 'hardener' can be misleading. Using more 'hardener' than called for in the manufacturers instructions will NOT make the end result harder or stronger! Quite the opposite. 'Catalyst' would be a better term, IMO.

Yeah, but using no hardener results in resin that never gets hard. Adding "hardener" does make it get hard. I learned that lesson the hard way over 50 years ago doing my first bondo-job on a 49 Pontiac. Sat in the yard for 6 months and never even got "firm."

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I agree that not adding the so called 'hardener' will result in the problem you had. But my previous post was merely an attempt to inform that more 'hardener' than recommended by the manufacturer won't give a better result, and usually a poor one! Taken to a ridiculous extreme, 100% 'hardener' will never harden either!!

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I agree that not adding the so called 'hardener' will result in the problem you had. But my previous post was merely an attempt to inform that more 'hardener' than recommended by the manufacturer won't give a better result, and usually a poor one! Taken to a ridiculous extreme, 100% 'hardener' will never harden either!!

Adding extra hardener to polyester resin speeds up the curing process. So yes, in the end it does't increase the hardness of final procuct. But -if working in cold temps and spot heating an RV while working on it -adding extra hardener can help the resin cure before it gets too cold. In that case, not adding extra hardener and having the RV get down before low temps can result in the resin never curing properly. Not such a problem with epoxy based resin. And with epoxy, to get a faster cure you use a faster hardener instead of more.

My main point being I've got no argument with "extra hardener" not yielding a corresponding "extra hardness." When the guy who started this thread mentioned using extra - it was about a faster cure time (I think). I'll have to go back and re-read post.

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Hardness - Word of caution when using Epoxy. You need to stick with the mixture schedule. Most epoxy manufactures supply "Ratio Pumps" that measure a specific volume on every squirt, some also supply weight data. Make sure your using the correct number of squirts from the correct pump, or if weighing, the correct weight of epoxy to the correct weight of hardner.

To achieve the maximum published strength, the published mixture - ratio / weight needs to be pretty close (We like to see it within 10%). As JB pointed out, adding more "hardner" may or may not make it cure faster, but it will impact the strength of the cured component. Most manufactures offer different hardners for use in different temperature / time environments.

In the Aviation community, we use West Systems a lot for non-structural components.

Heres a couple links to stuff made out of fiberglass, foam, and epoxy.

LongEZ Wings

LongEZ Misc

John Mc

88 Dolphin 4 Auto

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I've put the glassing on hold until the budget can recover and until the weather is more cooperative. All the pieces are glassed from the interior so they're not going anywhere. I stuck the windows back in temporarily and covered the top in plastic so I can start working on the interior through the winter.

I made some extra support for the back on the driver side where the wood was sagging so much and where I need to fill the hole where the generator box was. The neighbors were throwing away a futon bed frame and the steel is the same gauge as what's holding the floor so I figured it would work for support. I ended up having to cut out the middle support after I welded it in place because it didn't touch the frame. I put one back in now that it's in place.

I used two bottle jacks to push the floor up and into place, then welded the supports to the frame. Now the floor is about as flat as it's going to get back there.

Slowly but surely this thing will come together. It's just going to be a while.

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Edited by getout
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  • 3 weeks later...

Some of you already know this stuff, but for those that don't, here are a few words about resins...

- Epoxies don't stink at all whereas uncured polyester is super stanky and will give you a headache when glassing in closed quarters without a respirator mask.

- To avoid becoming sensitized, its important to work clean with uncured epoxy by keeping it off your skin as much as possible (wear gloves!), cuz IF you become sensitized then you can never be around uncured epoxy again.

- Epoxy will adhere to polyester (and almost anything else for that matter) but polyesters do NOT adhere to epoxy.

- If strength is important then use epoxy cuz epoxies are way waaaay stronger/harder than polyesters. Seriously, the difference in the greater strength of epoxy verses polyester is like night and day.

- If you're glassing anything that food or water will go in then use epoxy.

- If you're glassing over wood that will be regularly submerged in water...and you want it to last forever...then use epoxy cuz cured polyester has tiny pinholes that allow water through that will ultimately lead to delamination and dry rot.

- You can tweak the flash time of polyesters by adding more if it's cool and less when it's hot. There are limits though cuz I've had polyester not go off at all in super cold temps and even in super hot temps regardless of how much catalyst I added or didn't add. Epoxies are very different though. Instead of shootin from the hip like you can with polyester and catalyst, epoxies use hardeners and it's really important to carefully measure the amount of required hardener.

Hope that helps. :-)

Steve

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What material do you plan on using for the subfloor?

I don't know yet. I just finished reading all the responses to your other post. My floor is just a few pieces of mdf - about 1" thick. I'm thinking about covering it with something insulated and then flooring on top but haven't made a decision yet. I've still got holes to fill first, and then cover. I think you're moving much faster than I'm going to be able to.

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  • 3 weeks later...

Hello all,

Sorry it's been a while. It's cold and we've been working on a bunch of other house projects indoors.

Question for everyone: what should I do about insulating the floor? As mentioned in the previous post, it's just thick mdf. I thought about laying down some foam board insulation between a wood slats every couple feet and covering it all with another ply but I don't know if the loss of interior height and minimal insulation is worth the work. Any thoughts?

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Hello all,

Sorry it's been a while. It's cold and we've been working on a bunch of other house projects indoors.

Question for everyone: what should I do about insulating the floor? As mentioned in the previous post, it's just thick mdf. I thought about laying down some foam board insulation between a wood slats every couple feet and covering it all with another ply but I don't know if the loss of interior height and minimal insulation is worth the work. Any thoughts?

Well I'm wondering what your looking at when you say it's just a sheet of MDF. Look here and scroll down to see what your floor should be made of. There is a 3/4 inch sheet of foam under there and I have fixed the floor on my Sunrader and the top layer was definately plywood, not MDF

http://f1.grp.yahoofs.com/v1/kNz2UAVk7Wz_tjxYulTmVmVWCUJ6YX21uaQjfQgdXaG2zK3M2rOMBucEiTldTmb7WRoxMAyhISIGdNCM2cOxnt7t2369Gw4/Coach%20Manufacturer%27s%20Information/Owners%20Manuals%20and%20Brochures%2C%20Etc./Sunrader/Sunrader%20Brochures/SunraderClassics.pdf

I don't know if you belong to the toyota-campers group on yahoo but you might need to join to see this. Kind of wondering if someone didn't add the mdf to strengthen the original floor

Linda S

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Is it 3/4" MDF? If so, I would leave it as it is and install all your interior stuff like cabinets, and then when the interior is completely done I would install a floating laminate floor and use 3/4" finished 1/4 round to trim the expansion gap around the edges. (Don't install the cabinets on top of the laminate floor!) Laminate floors are tough and give pretty good insulation because of their foam underlayment. Maybe go with the thicker foam underlayment. Some would argue that floating floors are too heavy, but you're going to have very little square footage since it won't be installed under cabinets. Carpet is out as far as I'm concerned so any other flooring is going to be heavy except for vinyl, and vinyl requires a super smooth and even subfloor, whereas floating floors are very forgiving of uneven subfloors. Did you use that light weight MDF? I think its called "Feather Light" or something similar, or regular MDF?

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Hello all,

Sorry it's been a while. It's cold and we've been working on a bunch of other house projects indoors.

Question for everyone: what should I do about insulating the floor? As mentioned in the previous post, it's just thick mdf. I thought about laying down some foam board insulation between a wood slats every couple feet and covering it all with another ply but I don't know if the loss of interior height and minimal insulation is worth the work. Any thoughts?

I would not use fiberboard in any RV floor. It deteriorates much worse from moisture then plywood does. I can' t say I've ever seen any RV with it OEM in the sub-flooring but I have not seen them all. Some RVs use extruded styrene in the middle of two plywood layers for insulation. Even a 1/2" adds heat loss protection and sound protetction. Polyiso foam has the highest insulaton rating but it has low compressive strength. 6.5 to 7.8 R rating per inch. Not great to put weight on. 2nd to that is extruded polystyrene (XPS) that I think is used in Sunraders. It is stronger then polyiso and had around a 5 R rating per inch. That's what I'm putting into my Chinook floor. The lowest foam in insulating quality is expanded polysytrene (EPS). It's what my Chinook has on the walls and ceiling. Cheap, soft, and only 3.8 R rating per inch.

My Chinook is getting a 1/2" CDX treated plywood bottom, then a 1/2" extruded polystyrene that gives an insultating factor of 2.5 R, and then on top 3/8" treated Douglas Fir marine plywood A/B/X. On my Chinook, I am putting in 1/2" thick treated southern yellow pine supports between the two layers of plywood anywhere things need to be fastened and screwed. Expanded polystyrene is often used under concrete floors due to its fairly high compressive strength.

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I agree about MDF and particle board not being good for water because it swells and falls apart, but maybe he used the waterproof MDF used for making exterior signs??

Good article about the difference between EPS and XEPS: http://www.dyplastproducts.com/newsletter/more_xpseps.htm I didn't know that XEPS loses some of its R value as it ages.

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So, I got really concerned after reading everyone's responses to the flooring insulation question and I started thinking I had forgotten what the floor was made of since it's been so long since I've been out in the Toyota. Apparently I had MDF on the brain from another house project I was doing. I braved the cold this evening to go look again and take some pictures.

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It's an 3/4" OSB (not MDF...sorry) and that's it. The little strands are fiberglass from earlier work but I think you can still make out the OSB pattern.
Still too cold for me to be interested in actually doing anything out there, but I did buy this over the weekend for it...eventually.

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A 63 qt edgestar portable fridge. Have it plugged in testing it out.
Thanks for all the input! Eventually you'll get some pictures the sunrader getting put back together...after the snow melts some.
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I bought the exact same fridge but the 80 quart model a few weeks ago for only $278 shipped to my door. Have you read the 100+ page long thread at the Expedition Portal forum yet about the Edgestars yet that started about 4 years ago?

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I bought the exact same fridge but the 80 quart model a few weeks ago for only $278 shipped to my door. Have you read the 100+ page long thread at the Expedition Portal forum yet about the Edgestars yet that started about 4 years ago?

Holy smokes. I breezed through the thread but apparently didn't read it well enough. Where'd you score that from? I thought I got a good deal on mine at $325.

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Holy smokes. I breezed through the thread but apparently didn't read it well enough. Where'd you score that from? I thought I got a good deal on mine at $325.

Must have been from here: http://www.openboxdirect.com/Edgestar-80-Qt-Portable-Fridge-Freezer-FP861SD/FP861SD,default,pd.html?cgid=Appliances-Scratch_and_Dent

I should have read more but I don't think I'd want anything bigger. I'm putting mine under the small bench that will be behind the driver seat. Any taller and it wouldn't be sit-able.

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I bought it from Compact Appliance or maybe it was Living Direct (same company I hear) on Christmas Eve but mine was a "scratch and dent" model but I swear you'd have a hard time finding the scratch or dent on it. I assume it was shipped to someone and was dented in transit so the customer sent it back for a pristine one. According to that long thread, most of the issues have been simple fixes like how the 12 volt cord that came with it should be tossed and some were shipped with loose wires inside, etc.

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  • 2 weeks later...

Trying to do some inside stuff while it's cold out.

First, if you know anything about trying to wire some AAA LEDs for 12V, please take a look at my post in the electrics section:

http://toyotamotorhome.org/forums/index.php?showtopic=5612

I've been doing some wet sanding of the stainless stove/oven I got from a guy. It's cleaning up pretty well. I still have a ton to do on it though.

Mostly before shots:

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One shot after:

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Get a wire wheel for drill, make long passes in a straight line.

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how hard was it to get that stove out? where are the screw locations? and finally, can the oven inside be removed from the housing? I have a microwave I'd like to install IN the oven cavity but retain stove top. Can this be done mechanically or should I break out the angle grinder and of course leave the gas on when I do because I live for danger

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how hard was it to get that stove out? where are the screw locations? and finally, can the oven inside be removed from the housing? I have a microwave I'd like to install IN the oven cavity but retain stove top. Can this be done mechanically or should I break out the angle grinder and of course leave the gas on when I do because I live for danger

Don't think you'll be able to separate them even with a saws all. They do make a nice 2 burner cook top for around a hundred bucks. If you are going to leave the gas on be a nice guy and ask your neighbors if they would not mind going to a ball game or some thing for an hour or two. I often wondered what they were thinking when they put a 4 burner stove top and an oven in some thing 11' X 71/2' like they were going to have a sit down dinner for 8?

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My stove and oven was one piece. There are screws on the sides of the oven and lift the top of stove top up to remove final screws on top under stove top or under burners.

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I am pretty sure my angle grinder can cut through that stove box to make it bigger or just a cavity. I could then make a box mount inside underneath the microwave or conversely maybe i could just cut the bottom of the stove off and build a cabinet to hold the microwave. I bet if I did that I could get extra drawers or cabinets too.

Agreed Maineah, the small oven is practically useless for anything but baking very small things; it seems a novelty and wont cook a pizza well at all. I do like the 4 burner cooktop though, I have used all 4 at once many times.

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I don't know about removal. Mine didn't have the stove or oven installed when I bought it so I had to get this from the classifieds.

If you want the cooktop but don't want the stove, I'd probably just look for a stand-alone cook top. I don't doubt that you could cut this up and re-install it so it was just the cooktop, but it seems like it would be a huge mess. There's a bunch of insulation around the stove box. I'll take a look at mine when I'm home later and snap some pictures for you if you want to see how the top is connected to the bottom. I'm pretty sure this is similar to what was used in the sunraders but I know it's the 'the one' that was actually installed.

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Here are some more stove pictures. It doesn't look like it would be too hard to cut the top off and just leave the burners. There's a picture of the hoses that go to the oven too. I guess you could just plug those.

Take pictures if you do it.

http://postimage.org/image/6eq2r1ect/'>2013_02_05_21_25_50.jpghttp://postimage.org/image/j7e6qypyl/'>2013_02_05_21_26_17.jpghttp://postimage.org/image/8ylpl51wt/'>2013_02_05_21_26_38.jpg

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I agree that 4 burners on those stoves in a little motorhome is ridiculous but are you sure the oven wouldn't come in handy once in a while? I'm going to be totally redoing the interior in my Sunrader but am undecided if I should keep the existing stove/oven combo or replace it with a 2 burner Coleman propane or white gas camp stove. I have a 25 year old Coleman propane stove that looks funky with lots of dents but it has never let me down. Can you think of a reason to keep the little oven? Is the oven a joke?

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We actually bought the stove and oven combo because of the four burners and oven. We cook a lot at home and use four burners for many meals of camping/rafting trips. Big griddles and another pot or two depending on the meal. We thought the oven would just be a bonus...for cookies.

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And have you used the oven? I've heard about people using Dutch Ovens to cook all kinds of stuff. Could a Dutch Oven replace a regular oven for smaller stuff or is it only good for cooking beans and stews?

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  • 4 weeks later...
  • 3 months later...

Well, it's been a while. Lot's of house and baby stuff going on during the winter. When you don't work on a project for months because you're working on other things, you have a lot of time to think...and I think I'm going to 4x4 this guy.

I'm still trying to decide how to do that, but in the meantime I'm taking the shell off the truck so I can do some welding to the support structure and frame underneath. The floor is sagging pretty good on the sides so I think I'll build some more support for that.

Anyway, in case you wanted pictures of the removal, here's what I've got.

Please note: the picture with the screws represents maybe a quarter of all the screws. If you're doing this and you think you've taken all the screws out, you've probably gotten about half of them. There are always more and they're hiding.

To take the shell off, after removing as many screws as I could find attaching the cab to the shell and the 8 bolts through the floor to the frame I started to jack up the rear of the camper from the floor. As shell would go higher and higher, the adhesive at the cab would release a little at a time starting from the bottom. I also used a thin pry bar to hammer into the gap to loosen up more adhesive. I didn't do much prying with it and wouldn't recommend it as it started making a cracking sound.

With the back about 6" off the frame, I used the pry bar to cut through the adhesive around the roof area and then jacked up the front of the camper. It released and the shell was free. Now I'm trying to figure out how to get the truck out from underneath it.

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