Weber Carburetor

[MontanaChinook]

Yeah EFI is a whole other system to learn. Doable, but roadside repairs become much harder.

For R to RE conversion you need to swap: gas tank, entire engine wiring harness, intake...can't think what else right now...tea hasn't kicked in yet.

Doable but the wiring is complicated. Many people do it (in the offroad "anything is possible" crowd), but its not simple.

[86rader]

In the end, I guess this one goes into the possible, but just not worth the trouble, category.

You know what would be interesting to try with the weber is to use a FI header with the O2 sensor. Then wire the sensor into a dash mounted voltmeter. The O2 sensor is basically nothing more than a variable resistor. its output voltage varies with fuel air ratio. This way if you did have to cross an 11000 ft pass, you could pull over and quickly adjust the ratio as you climbed/dropped. If you did it often enough, you could figure out a way to do it remotely on the fly from the cockpit. Small piston engine planes have had this feature for as long as there have been planes. it might also be a way to eek out that last bit of mpg on a highway trip by fine tuning on the lean side. Just make sure you don't melt a piston in the process.

[Sunrading Arkansas]

I was actually trying to figure out how to install a manual vacuum switch, to toggle the #2 vac port (outer) on the Vacuum Advance when above 4000ft. (as discussed in post #8 here: http://forum.ih8mud.com/60-series-wagons/575436-what-vacuum-lines-do-i-need.html). Essencially accomplishing what the HAC used to do...i believe, still researching though.

[MontanaChinook]

Awesome

[Sunrading Arkansas]

Just a quick update:

Took the newly desmogged/webered rig for a 350+ mile trip this weekend. On the way out (with a much heavier foot) there was a noticable increase in available power - not down-shifting as much up longer/steep passes (for Arkansas anyway). For example, hills I had to take in 2nd I could now take in 3rd or even 4th and I could also maintain a more appreciable Interstate speed (65-70mph as opposed to 55) on flats. However, when i filled up at my destination the cost was realized...15mpg. SO, on the way back I used a more ginger footing on the throttle and down shifted slightly more - 18.2mpg (best yet)! And this was with all windows open in cab and camper!

So my conclusion is, with these upgades, I now have the AVAILABLE power when I want it and better mpg when I choose not to use it. Overall very happy.

[MontanaChinook]

That's great! More motivation to do it myself this summer.

[Stevo]

Patrick - Did you follow the de-smog directions at the Yotatech forum? I'm probably going to do that too but I might keep the Aisan carb. Sorry if you already mentioned it, but did you do the de-smog and install of the new Weber at the same time?

[Rusker]

Okay I'm convinced.

I love the look of the cleaned up engine bay. Much easier to work around.

I'm also going to toss my A/C unit as it had died before I purchased the camper.

[Sunrading Arkansas]

Stevo, sorry for the delayed response. Yes I did the complete Yotatech de-smog (as I live in a more environmentally un-conscientious state). It worked great on our 8000mi. trip out west, and the extra umph was appreciated in the mountains for sure! Rusker, it is definitely nice to be able to see and reach the engine, and it also GREATLY decreases the number of what-ifs when diagnosing issues...mainly because you eliminate the rat's-nest of vacuum lines (I now have only 2). I had very little carb experience going into the conversion, and it was more or less a cake walk.

[Stevo]

I'm encouraged by how easy the de-smog and new Weber carb install was for you. Thanks.

[Sunrading Arkansas]

Just FYI, for those with Webers (or soon to be . I recently installed this filter set-up on my Weber: http://www.summitracing.com/parts/KNN-56-1070/

It's K&N Part Number 56-1070, and replaces the entire airbox that comes with most Webers. LCE sells a larger 11" circular kit but it's $150.

Not sure what if any difference in fuel economy it will make, but I'll report back once I've put some miles on it.

[Stevo]

Thanks for the update dude. And what is it about that special air filter you got thats supposed to be better than the stock Weber air filter? More air to the carb?

[MontanaChinook]

Yes, exactly, why?

I'm loving my Weber. I put it on a week before I left on my trip, so even though I live at 5,000', I just went with the sea level jets I hear it comes stock with, and tuned it the best I could. It definitely has run rich, but still very well, this whole trip. Now I'm at sea level for probably a month, so I need to tune it correctly, finally.

I'll be interested to see how it runs.

[Stevo]

Did you check your gas mileage when it was running rich? How does your Weber compare, rich or not, with the old Aisian carb?

Yes, exactly, why?

I'm loving my Weber. I put it on a week before I left on my trip, so even though I live at 5,000', I just went with the sea level jets I hear it comes stock with, and tuned it the best I could. It definitely has run rich, but still very well, this whole trip. Now I'm at sea level for probably a month, so I need to tune it correctly, finally.

I'll be interested to see how it runs.

[MontanaChinook]

I can't say 100%, because it's not a fair comparison. When I took a 2,000 mile trip with the stock carb, my water tank was empty, I had fewer cabinets built, and way less stuff.

As soon as I put the Weber on, I filled my water tank + carry up to 6 gallons of drinking water in separate containers, and have a whole bunch of stuff with me, plus a basket on top of my roof rack now with crap in it.

It's been very windy...and instead of averaging 20, I'm averaging 17mpg. With the old carb, my best mpg was 22 and my worst was 17. With the Weber, and my much-more-loaded-down camper, my best has still been 22, but my worst has been 14.

I don't know much about carbs and engines really...but I wonder if the difference between running rich, and running just right, is really very little fuel. Enough to blacken the spark plugs and see a little unburnt fuel come out the tailpipe, but not enough to seriously effect gas mileage?

I don't know.

I'm about to calculate my last month's gas mileage, where there was a little less wind. Between that and getting it tuned correctly, I'll report back on my mileage.

[Sunrading Arkansas]

@Zach - Glad to hear the conversion worked out well! I think it makes a great deal of difference to have the carb tuned properly (air/fuel mixture not necessarily jetting) and with Weber's a properly dialed in fuel regulator (other wise the carb will always be running with a flooded bowl). I first did a valve adjustment, then adjusted the timing to factory (5 degrees TDC w/ vacuum lines off the distributor and capped), then adjusted the air/fuel mix screw (with a digital tachometer hooked up) until I had the highest RPM I could get with that adjustment, and finally I set the idle speed screw at close to factory RPM (750 I think). *You can do the whole thing by ear and get close, but a digital tach (mine is on my timing light) is worth it's weight in gold in my opinion.

@Stevo - As to the K&N, I mainly replaced the standard one because A ) those clips broke WAY to easily when removing the filter and B ) because my original air filter was FILTHY from my trip out west and saturated with oil because I (stupidly) routed the Valve Cover breather (NOT the PCV but the other one) into the airbox (as instructed) which ended up just sucking oil into the airbox & carb. The K&N is supposedly going to increase air flow 30%, but I don't think that will make much difference since I'm running a stock exhaust...we'll see. If I was a richer man I'd probably throw a JCE header on there and a 2.25" pipe, which I know would make a difference.

[MontanaChinook]

I'm about to learn all the finer points of tuning this thing pretty soon. It seems to run really well, but has some backfiring when I coast. My adjustments tell me I'm running too rich, but I don't know...I thought I could get it tuned correctly at sea level, but getting it within the 1 3/4 turns out on the mixture screw made the backfiring worse. (I mean post detonation...I guess technically backfiring happens out the carb but I'm getting popping out of my exhaust).

I always thought that when you get detonation in the exhaust it's from unburnt fuel detonating when it hits the hot exhaust. Which I assumed means I'm running rich. But I did an experiment since I have a manual choke. When I was coasting down a hill, I closed the choke all the way. No backfiring. But I'd be running more rich with the choke closed...I could even smell gas. When I pulled it back open I got a big loud backfire, then back to the normal backfiring.

I know that it might be something other than the carb causing this, so I'm going to start with my timing, then adjust the carb following the instructions, and see what it does then. But I don't know anymore if I'm jetted for sea level or not, since when I went back to just 1 turn out on the mixture screw, the backfiring calmed back down to where it's been this whole trip. I just heard somewhere that every carb sent out stock from Weber comes with sea level jets... (?)

We'll see! I have brand new spark plugs, new distributer, coil, ignitor. So it's got to be an adjustment thing, but not positive if it's my carb, or timing, or what.

[WME]

"Typically" a backfire under deceleration is caused by a lean condition. Often caused by a Bad gasket or broken vacuum line.

The only way to jet a carb is with an air/fuel meter, Ebay has them in the $175 range.

In the OLD days I learned how to jet a Weber by reading sparkplug color. I had bags of jets, air bleeds and emulsion tubes.

[MontanaChinook]

The Weber instructions say something along the lines of: "if the mixture screw is 1 3/4 turns out, you are rich and "over jetted", if you are more than 2 1/2 turns out, you're lean and under jetted" or at least that's how I read it. So at least according to Weber you can tell what jets you need by looking at how many turns out your mixture screw ends up being in search of the best idle.

Mine was set, for best idle, at 1 turn out. I guess I've assumed I'm rich (ha) because I can see unburned fuel coming out the tailpipe. At least I hope it's that and not coolant...but I haven't been losing any coolant and it's not constant. And doesn't stop when I warmed up, though like I said, it's not doing it all the time. When I got it to still run well a couple days ago at 1 3/4 turns out, everything was cool until I used my gears to control my speed down a hill. Lots more backfiring than I'm used to. Going back to 1 turn out calmed them down a little, but they're still happening.

Can you explain how running lean causes the backfire? As I'm fixing this, it's brought up a lot of questions on how this thing functions.

When I have time I'm going to check the timing, then re-tune the carb.

[WME]

All your adjusting is the idle mix. Each throttle has a main jet, air bleed jet and a emulsion tube. To rejet for a higher altitude you need a smaller main jet, if you make a big change you will need a larger air bleed, and if you get crazy then you will need an emulsion tube with more holes in it.

[Sunrading Arkansas]

Sounds like something is definitely amiss in your setup. I have to imagine that's condensation, not fuel, coming from the exhaust. I ran my Weber through elevations between 0ft and 11000ft (mostly between 3-8k) with factory jetting and it ran fine - no backfire. You'd have to get a A/F guage as WME suggested or pull the plugs to determine if it's running lean or rich (sounds like it's rich to me, so the plugs would be black soot covered). But if it was THAT rich, you'd be fouling plugs pretty regularly (and then it would have a miss). I've attached some pics of my setup. I'd recommend tracking down a friend/relative that's familiar with carbs and trade them a sixer for some help & a walk through.

[MontanaChinook]

Where you're running your pcv...is that part of the old egr system? Is there anything "wrong" with routing it to the base of the carb, where it would normally be? The Weber has a spot specifically for it. Or I guess it's the adaptor that has the place for it.

That's what I figured, too...and I'm not fouling plugs. I just changed them, and was surprised they weren't all black and sooty. I need to look up some internet photos to compare them too.

I mostly just get that popping noise out of the tailpipe when I'm coasting, not typically loud cracks. But as soon as I give it a tiny bit of gas, it stops.

Between checking the timing and following Webers tuning instructions, I'm hoping it will be fixed. This was also just posted on Yotatech: http://www.yotatech.com/f114/weber-tech-tuning-newbies-tuning-261129/

Which should help clear up a couple sticky spots in the instructions.

But yeah, if that doesn't help...I'll be back in Montana in a month or so, and the guy who helped me install it will be happy to take a look, I'm sure. He was an aircraft mechanic in the Marines, and will pretty much fix or build anything.

[MontanaChinook]

Nice Steinbeck quote, by the way. Just noticed that. Everyone forced that book on me as soon as I started talking about this trip. He had particularly good things to say about Montana...

[Derek up North]

I'd like to suggest you read 'Travels with Andy' too.

http://www.andybaird.com/travels/index.html

I found it an enjoyable read even if not about Toyotas.

Oh, and Andy has good things to say about New Mexico.

[MontanaChinook]

I've spent a lot of time on that site. A lot of the things I bought leading up to this trip were at his suggestion.

[Derek up North]

I think when I first found his site, I read every page. I think he's written a little less since then and more about photography and birds than about full-time RVing.

[Sunrading Arkansas]

My Weber came with that plate with a threaded nipple that the PCV hose connects to on the Manifold...I can't remember exactly what was there before, but I think there was just a solid block-off plate (though it may have been part of the EGR). If you don't have a second breather on your valve cover (i.e., where my little red filter is on next to the oil cap) then I'm not sure how yours is supposed to be setup. But I know that on my 22r the PCV needs continuous vacuum from the manifold - which you wouldn't be getting from the filter housing port - in order to draft the crankcase gases/pressure/air.

[MontanaChinook]

My vent near the oil cap is routed to the air cleaner, the way Weber intended it.

My PCV is routed to an opening in the adapter plate, below the base of the carb, right about where it went with my stock carb. Where yours is routed, unless I'm really confused, is indeed a port which was part of the egr system, and probably had a block off plate on it. Mine does.

I'm assuming I'm getting vacuum from the manifold with the egr routed where it is. I mean they drilled a hole in the adapter plate right there specifically for the egr, and it's the same spot it was routed into the Aisin carb.

Could be something with my desmog, or something with my timing or valve adjustment is causing the backfiring. I've got a little miss here and there, too, but it's not constant.

Hopefully I'll get around to working on all that soon. Maybe in Portland.

Here's a photo. You can see both hoses.

[vert]

WEBER TUNING GUIDE 22R 32-36 carb (all emissions removed other than the catalytic - new one installed (this is what i did after lots of research)

--0 suggest to read from the beginning of that thread.... lots of good info...

My settings -- goal was to pass smog/ air care in Vancouver BC. and improve running of the 22R the normal weber settings are very thougho http://www.sv3power.com/?page_id=371

and http://www.yotatech.com/f114/weber-tech-tuning-newbies-tuning-261129/


this is what i did... as i understand the weber set-up is LEAN and generally better to run a little richer and help extend the life of a hard working engine on an 82 Toy and get a little more pep up the Hills -- a little more power.... Hope this helps -- it took me a long time to find and figure it out.... thread is here also worth a read from the beginning... http://www.yotatech.com/f114/weber-tech-tuning-newbies-tuning-261129/index2.html


premium 91 octane gas
changed timing advance to 4deg (factory recommended 8deg)
increased idle mixture jet up one size to 65 (from stock 60)
increased main jet one size to 145 (from stock 140)
idle mixture screw = 1.25 turns out (failed at 1.75 for air care testing) adjusted after air care cause it seemed to run better to 1.50 turns out....
cold choke set to run ok ... idle screw -- set to idle 900rpm
changed catalytic convertor to 3 way (better at dealing with most and esp N0x's)
Vancouver auto parts # 608204 was only 100.00 this probably the most influential esp on N0x's (and was what I needed to be reduced) everything else was very low already...

NOTE: my engine had all the emissions removed or capped off as well as no air pump or EGR valve...

passed air care in Vancouver Canada with flying colors...

got 30 mpg -- tho really i have to look at that again -- i kinda don't believe it -- I'll do other tests and post... while away on holidays...

stock engine r22 with Weber 32-36
new timing chain and new cylinder head... compression on engine within specs....
with 2 lines running on the distributor

V