linda s Posted November 23, 2012 Share Posted November 23, 2012 Propane here in Northern Cal is about 3.50 a gallon but comparing it to gasoline doesn't make much sense unless I'm running a vehicle with it. My fridge uses a 1000 btu's per hour so that means it costs about 91.5 cents a day to run on propane. That is the max usage on high though so it is really less Linda S Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zero Posted November 23, 2012 Share Posted November 23, 2012 Propane here in Northern Cal is about 3.50 a gallon but comparing it to gasoline doesn't make much sense unless I'm running a vehicle with it. My fridge uses a 1000 btu's per hour so that means it costs about 91.5 cents a day to run on propane. That is the max usage on high though so it is really less Linda S I made the cdmparison because someone said propane is cheaper then gas. Most often it is not but some people just go by the price per gallon and not price per energy unit. Propane hasn't been cheaper then gasoline where I live for over 30 years. When it was - some farmers were running their tractors on propane. Talking cost per BTU for RVs can be relevant for some people and some uses. If someone opts to use a compressor-type refrigerator, AC or DC - then ultimately gasoline, propane, or diesel fuel will supply the energy - to make the electricity - to run the refrigerator and maybe some other applicances. That is . . . unless they are relying on solar-electric panels. Even a propane refrigerator - when run on DC electric mode is using gasoline or diesel to power it. If on AC from the grid - here in NY - it would be in effect- running on coal. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Derek up North Posted November 23, 2012 Share Posted November 23, 2012 If on AC from the grid - here in NY - it would be in effect- running on coal. Or wind. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zero Posted November 23, 2012 Share Posted November 23, 2012 Or wind. The vast majority of grid-supplied AC power in NY is from coal and tire burning. Small amounts are sourced from hydroelectric, wind, nuclear, biomass burning,, solar, etc. Technically I am a producer and supplier to the NY grid since I sell my excess solar electric via grid-tie. The amount I supply probably isn't enough to charge an elf's flashlight. I sell around 800 KWH per year to the NY grid. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Maineah Posted November 24, 2012 Share Posted November 24, 2012 The vast majority of grid-supplied AC power in NY is from coal and tire burning. Small amounts are sourced from hydroelectric, wind, nuclear, biomass burning,, solar, etc. Technically I am a producer and supplier to the NY grid since I sell my excess solar electric via grid-tie. The amount I supply probably isn't enough to charge an elf's flashlight. I sell around 800 KWH per year to the NY grid. I made the cdmparison because someone said propane is cheaper then gas. Most often it is not but some people just go by the price per gallon and not price per energy unit. Propane hasn't been cheaper then gasoline where I live for over 30 years. When it was - some farmers were running their tractors on propane. Talking cost per BTU for RVs can be relevant for some people and some uses. If someone opts to use a compressor-type refrigerator, AC or DC - then ultimately gasoline, propane, or diesel fuel will supply the energy - to make the electricity - to run the refrigerator and maybe some other applicances. That is . . . unless they are relying on solar-electric panels. Even a propane refrigerator - when run on DC electric mode is using gasoline or diesel to power it. If on AC from the grid - here in NY - it would be in effect- running on coal. No, I guess the price is considered cheap because of what it costs to power the MH acc. with it. Gasoline is not an option in that case. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Maineah Posted November 24, 2012 Share Posted November 24, 2012 Or wind. Derek that's cheating you guys in QC have the cheapest power in North America! We ran a 2200HP generator during the peak demand in the summer for years to save money for our county complex guess where the power was coming from you guess it Hydro QC! Guess where it was going NY and CT! I used to watch the power grid and start the generator just before peak. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zero Posted November 24, 2012 Share Posted November 24, 2012 No, I guess the price is considered cheap because of what it costs to power the MH acc. with it. Gasoline is not an option in that case. Gasoline is not an option to run accessories in a motorhome? Gasoline runs AC generators that make AC to run all sorts of appliances. Gasoline runs the engine that spins a alternator that makes DC current that runs appliances. Gasoline can be used to direct-fuel cabin heaters. Directly or indirectly, gasoline or diesel can run all the appliances in a motorhome if that is what someone wants. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
5Toyota Posted November 24, 2012 Share Posted November 24, 2012 washington state has a state gas tax of something close to 40 cents a gallon this summer in central wash reg gas at four dollars a gallon. propane was three fifty nine a gallon for rv use. the electric is on the order of eight cents a kilowatt Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zero Posted November 24, 2012 Share Posted November 24, 2012 washington state has a state gas tax of something close to 40 cents a gallon this summer in central wash reg gas at four dollars a gallon. propane was three fifty nine a gallon for rv use. the electric is on the order of eight cents a kilowatt If gasoline was $4 per gallon and propane was $3.59 - the gasoline was cheaper. A gallon of gasoline has a lot more energy and makes more heat then a gallon propane. That propane would need to be cheaper then $2.60 per gallon to be a "cheaper" then gasoline at $3.59. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zero Posted November 24, 2012 Share Posted November 24, 2012 If gasoline was $4 per gallon and propane was $3.59 - the gasoline was cheaper. A gallon of gasoline has a lot more energy and makes more heat then a gallon propane. That propane would need to be cheaper then $2.60 per gallon to be a "cheaper" then gasoline at $3.59. The added factor is that many RV users do not get the benefit of buying propane in bulk. Often when the currrent bulk price is $3.75 - the price you pay when having a 20lb. or 30lb. tank exchanged costs $5 per gallon. Especially with the new "partial fill" rip-off that most of the big name filllers are doing. Blue Rhino is one of them. When filled correctly a tank should get an 80% fill. A few years back when prices skyrocketed - many fillers started filling at 70% fill so the price did not have to be raised. When prices came back down - many stayed at that rip-off 70% fill. I know Blue Rhino did at Walmart because I checked recently (this past summer). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bob C Posted November 24, 2012 Share Posted November 24, 2012 I would have bought a propane frig but could not find a good used one or a new one that I could afford. I did find a 4 cu ft 120/12 volt marine Norcold that I bought for $75. This is a compressor type unit with auto switching when plugged into shore power. The guy was stripping out a large sail boat that got totaled when it broke free during a storm. The frig does a great job during any weather or driving conditions. When i installed it, I added 1 1/2" of styrofoam insulation to the top, bottom, and sides. I could not add to the front (door) or the back (compressor side) The unit ran infrequently on 95 degree days going through S. Dakota, Wyoming, and Montana this summer. Stuff that we put in the freezer had to be defrosted before cooking 4 days into the trip. My wife and I do more drive and camp type trips rather than destination trips. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
5Toyota Posted November 25, 2012 Share Posted November 25, 2012 I would never use blue rhino what a rip off i owen four tanks two rv type two upright bbq type. I look ed at that a long time ago the ex rate was about double the price of going to a bulk plant and re filling my own tanks and i get them full as safe can be. SAD TO SAY BUT I KNOW SOME PLACES NOT OVERLY BLESED WITH PROPANE REFILLING STATIONS THEY ARE GOOD HERE Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
5Toyota Posted November 25, 2012 Share Posted November 25, 2012 too me 30 or 40 for gas is a lot 12 dollors for fill up propane is not Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Maineah Posted November 25, 2012 Share Posted November 25, 2012 Gasoline is not an option to run accessories in a motorhome? Gasoline runs AC generators that make AC to run all sorts of appliances. Gasoline runs the engine that spins a alternator that makes DC current that runs appliances. Gasoline can be used to direct-fuel cabin heaters. Directly or indirectly, gasoline or diesel can run all the appliances in a motorhome if that is what someone wants. Well the only fridge I found was not for mobile use and was all most 2 grand. That leaves you to deal with two fuels unless you want to change out all the rest of the gas appliances too. So I guess to save $2 you'll have to spend $4,000. Starting from scratch in the woods is great because you can carry your fuel in a bucket but retrofitting a MH would be a nightmare. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zero Posted November 25, 2012 Share Posted November 25, 2012 Well the only fridge I found was not for mobile use and was all most 2 grand. That leaves you to deal with two fuels unless you want to change out all the rest of the gas appliances too. So I guess to save $2 you'll have to spend $4,000. Starting from scratch in the woods is great because you can carry your fuel in a bucket but retrofitting a MH would be a nightmare. Maybe to some retrofitting is a "nightmare" but not to all. There are many old RVs and motorhomes getting updated and/or retrofitted anyway just due to age. Some people included a few on these forums like rehabing older RVs. And yes -some have their work done by others (so it's expensive). Also, as it's already been stated - not everyone uses an RV the same . . . and . . . fuel prices and availability vary all over. I've never had an RV that I did not wind up going all through and changing things around. That's my preference. Buy cheap, change as needed and/or desired -and wind up with a good low cost rig that fits my personal lifestyle. I camp mostly at night and drive my RVs during the day. For my family they are "travel machines." I like to stick to one fuel if possible. My 1986 diesel 4WD Chevy RV has . . . diesel RV heat (runs off the main fuel tank). Refrigerator is AC electric and in essence - runs off the same diesel tank (diesel engine charges the batteries). Microwave oven also indirectly runs off of diesel. Cook stove still uses propane and so does the hot water heater. I used to love using propane for many things. It used to be substantially cheaper then all the other fuels (by BTUs you get for a dollar) - even grid electricity. Not any more - at least where I live or anywhere I go. 30-40 years ago just about all the homes in my area were using propane or heating-oil (diesel) for their tank-type hot water heaters. Now most have changed over to grid-supplied AC power. It's cheaper and . . . it's easy to super-insulate an electric hot heater. Note that we have some of the highest electric rates in the contiguous USA. Can't be done with a propane heater because of the chimney it requires - and air supply for the flame. When it comes to RVs - you can't super-insulate a gas refrigerator either. That because of the air intake and exhaust needs. Most AC or DC electrics can be heavily insulated and made to work extremely efficiently. Propane heating furnaces (convection or forced air) are extremely inefficient. Usually 65-75% of the gas actually heats the RV and the rest goes outside to the birds. There may be some pricey 95% efficient units somewhere for RVs but I haven't seen any in actual use. The ones I do have experience with in residential use are less reliable then the less efficient furnaces. I assume this is why so many are now using unvented heaters inside RVs and taking their chances with not waking up in the morning. If I was living in one spot, off the grid and propane was cheaper then electric - I'd use it. I DO live off-grid in summer in one spot and formerly had a propane and a kerosene refrigerator. Also had a kerosene cook stove. After installing solar electric for purposes of supplying power for my DC powered piston water pump, TV, DVD, TV antenna amplifier, code-required smoke alarms, etc. - I changed over to a DC chest refrigerator and never regretted it. For my use I by far prefer it to propane. But to be fair - if I was living there during the darkest parts of the early winter I'd have to use a fuel driven generator to charge the batteries up every few days. Not many choices on that. Propane, diesel, gasoline, or firewood-smoke to run a gasoline generator. My full-time neighbor has been off grid for 10 years. He powers his house with solar, wind, and propane. He spends a fortune on propane during the winter running his clothes dryer, hot water heater, and electric generator. Not many great options when you live in area that sometimes gets down to 30 below 0 F. And yeah, not all of this applies to people who camp in RVs. But for those that live in RVs, maybe. My farm (barn and house) run on solar electric. Our heat is 100% firewood from our land (I've never bought firewood ever). Our domestic hot water in the winter is from wood. For cooking we have a Rumford wood-cooking fireplace, a wood-fired bake oven, an oil stove, a gasoline stove, a wood cook stove, and an old Chambers propane cook stove. We still use the propane quite a bit for cooking, summer hot-water, and clothes drying in the winter. We have a 1000 gallon tank and get it filled once a year at the lowest rate. At that so-called "lowest rate" the last fill up was $3.90 per gallon. I wish I could find a convenient way to stop using it altogether but so far - have not. Hey, to "each his own." No right or wrong here. Just different people with different ways of doing things. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Maineah Posted November 25, 2012 Share Posted November 25, 2012 Oh I could not agree with you more it's an excellent off grid option I live in the middle of 80 acres in the western mountains and would have been off grid completely except that we were homeless while we built the new house 12 years ago and time was of the essence. We heat water and the house with wood we have 10 life times of wood to burn and I love to cut wood. I am living my dream vicariously through my neighbor from away the power co. told him they would be glad to bring him power for $18,000 so we have been installing solar electric and wind power to make up for the winter loss they intend to retire up here in 5 years I will admit he is heating his water with propane. But I'll stand by my propane for a camper it is a camper approved standard and certified very easy to store and replacement parts for the accessories are every where. Yes the heaters are huge energy hogs but it takes a lot to heat a cardboard box. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
5Toyota Posted November 26, 2012 Share Posted November 26, 2012 like that old saying different strokes for different folks Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zero Posted November 26, 2012 Share Posted November 26, 2012 Oh I could not agree with you more it's an excellent off grid option My place has solar grid-tie so I can get back the excess power I make on sunny days and using during the dark days. My neighbor ( 1 mile away) cannot hook to the grid unless he pays them $20,000. So, he's been on off-grid solar for 10 years now. He does fine in the summer but in the dark months of winter - he spends over $300-$400 per month on propane. A lot of that is to run his electric generator to keep his batteries charged up. He has also gone through several Generac "home backup" generators. Never actually wore one out. Just problems with the integrated electronic controls that he couldn't seem to get fixed. For him - there aren't too many good options to the propane anymore. Diesel is a little cheaper, but not my much. 20 years ago, off-road diesel or home heating oil was way cheaper then propane or gasoline when it comes to what a dollar buys in BTUs. No more. The only bargain for "store-bought" fuel is natrual gas and that is not available in my area. The neighbor owns a nice running creek. Plenty enough to power a turbine for electric. But the Dept. of Environmental Conservation will not let him do it even though he owns it. Same sort of thing on my land. I own two large creeks but since trout live there - I am not even allow to drive across or through any of them without getting a permit from the State of New York. In my area, running an electric generator on firewood smoke is the cheapest way do do it. Not the most convenient way to do it though. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Boots Posted May 4, 2014 Share Posted May 4, 2014 For what its worth, some Dometics are repairable; even if the mechanic says it is not. Here is the deal, these type of coolers are really absorption coolers, not refrigeration systems. Refrigerators use a compressor to pressure a refrigerant gas and then force it through a small opening (some call this a king valve or Schroder valve) which then allows the gas to expand from a hot liquid to a cold gas, this gas is the circulated through coils, which in turn transfers the cold to the interior of the refrigerator. Dometics (and other similar models) use something called an absorption column, and in a way the design approach is similar it is in the method the difference is obvious. A small (propane fueled) flame is used to heat a line which contains chemicals, that carry the heat up into the absorption chamber (this is an overly simplified explanation) where the pressurized liquid is forced through a small orifice, from there it expands, from hot liquid to cold gas, it releases it energy to the coils in the frig, much the same way as a regular refrigerator works. The difference is there is no compressor in an absorption unit. This makes for a remarkably simple system which is very energy efficient system. Why do Dometics stop, because there are some chemicals in its system, which convert to a mineral crystal that eventually blocks the flow through the system, hence a dead system. I don't know about where you live but ask around and see if there is a company or a business who will open the system and clean out these crystals or replace the passage way tubing. Good luck. Boots Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Donnie Posted June 2, 2014 Share Posted June 2, 2014 Boots, I just read the complete thread on the fore-mentioned refrig. systems...Very interesting discussion. My small Dometic RM 211..older unit using a square heater box, I read that the round heater box is more tolerant to being run in an off level position & that my system may be "blocked"... I tried inverting it for 24 hours, cleaned the gas orfice, etc...It burns a nice propane flame, but will not cool.... You mention a (mineral blockage)...........some one asked me if I tapped on the lines....My question to you is: do you think that tapping on the lines will break up a mineral blockage...I have a good understanding of compressor type units, either cycling clutch orfice tube or expansion valve systems, but have limited experience trouble shooting the absorption system .. Would just like your opinion on this.... I will listen also to ANYONE who has anything to add to this query.............TIA, Donnie Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zero Posted June 3, 2014 Share Posted June 3, 2014 For what its worth, some Dometics are repairable; even if the mechanic says it is not. Here is the deal, these type of coolers are really absorption coolers, not refrigeration systems. Refrigerators use a compressor to pressure a refrigerant gas Either one can be called a "refrigerator" in American English. The ice boxes that were common in the 1800s were also called "refrigerators." it's just a bad spelling of the Latin word for "make cold again." I've had a few absorption refrigerators that responded well to a beating. They would not cool well even with good heat in the back. With two, I shook them around, rocked back and forth - and they worked. Note though that both had been in storage a long time previous to the problem. I guess I've been lucky because I've yet to come across a Dometic or Trav'ler that could not be made to work. I've got some here that are over 40 years old and still work are fine. Maybe because I'm in the northeast where campers only get used for a small part of the year. Campers die early around here from rot and there's lots of good RV appliances around to be had cheap - and sometimes for nothing. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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