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I dont understand. It's an article about oil companies that are mixing in ethanol with their gas before they export it to get the ethanol criedt from the goverment and working the system. How does this down play ethanol as a fuel? This is just another example of why it's a good thing we are cutting the ethanol subsidy.

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This is just another example of why it's a good thing we are cutting the ethanol subsidy.

Yes, I agree.

John Mc

88 Dolphin 4 Auto

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First off, being a newb here, I don't mean to jump on toes, and this is a great discussion, but I'm seeing some things here that I just have to comment on.

Air cooled motor cycle engines are cooled by fuel, they run a very rich mix that is why comparatively small engines get poor mileage.

What?!?! :huh:

Where in the world did you get that from?

I see that Derek wanted to know about my Propane powered Toyota in a post above, just saw that. Also in college I had an Organic Chemistry professor that was from Phillips Petroleum (now you know how old I am) & he turned me on to Propane. Propane has a much higher octane (112-115) and as a dry gas does not wash the oil off the cylinders & pistons like gasoline (a solvent). Although it has way less BTU's per gallon than gas, it essentially combusts every last BTU where gas does not completely combust every molecule (thus pollution). So Propane just puts out CO2, Water, and Nox (Nitrous oxide) while gas engines put out "unburned hydrocarbons" + carbon monoxide in addition to water & CO2 + Nox.

All of the above is great, except that NOx is nitrogen oxides, a by-product of combustion - which increases with temperature. Nitrous Oxide is N2O.

Oh - and it is not predetonation, it is just detonation. I think you are mixing pre-ignition and detonation. It sounds kind of like irregardless.

Again there is much more to it then just BTU numbers. The gas engine is only 16%-18% effencient so there for your not using anywhere close to the full number of BTU's for power. If you rise the number of effencieny, which you can with a fuel like ehtanol, you can use a lot more of those BTU's. The more complete burn of the fuel you can get the better effencieny rate you will have. There are guy's that will run CNG kit's on their diesel trucks to work with the diesel. It mixes in at the intake of the engine. Some of these guys are getting upwards of 40 MPG out of a full size diesel truck that would usally get around 20 MPG. The BTU rating of CNG is about 1/4 of diesel so how could that be. It's because it lets the fuel burn more completey. CNG always works very well in diesel engine's because of the high compression because CNG is around 120-130 octane if I can remember correct.

Efficiency does not necessarily make power. Period. Complete burning of the mixture does not mean more BTU's have been created, it just means that the exhaust will be cleaner. Now maybe if you were to raise the compression ratio to more like 11:1, the engine could take advantage of the cooler burning (lower BTUs) of the ethanol, and then make more power. Ethanol isn't a bad thing, but it can't be dumped into our current engines and expect better returns.

CNG to a diesel is kind of like what Nitrous Oxide is to a gasoline engine, and puts the same kind of strain on components.

Edited by a2ndopinion

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Is there a way you can tell which gasoline stations do NOT add ethanol to their fuel before you pull in to fill-up? Or is it a federal mandate to add 10% ethanol to all petroleum sold in the US? Thanks!

Here is a place to start for your fuel info...... pure-gas.org Donnie

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that's www.pure-gas.org Why won't my link's hilite?

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OK http://www.pure-gas.org nope, no cigar ??????????

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Pure gas info: be sure to click on the link in the center of the page for more info........fuel-testers. com.............Donnie

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In response to questions about government mandates on ethanol: The EPA mandated that U.S. gasoline must contain 10 percent ethanol as well as a higher MPG average for the national car and truck fleet. As one forum member noted, this conflicting goals but EPA bureaucrats never think before acting. To make matters worse, the EPA is now trying to impose a 15 percent ethanol blend in gasoline but has run into a buzz saw of opposition from car makers and service station operators. The problem is the higher ethanol blend could negate warranties on many existing vehicles and older vehicles (including most Toys) cannot run on 15 percent ethanol without damaging their engines. This means service stations will have to add an extra pump for older 10 percent ethanol blends. Write your congressmen--this is insanity. Keep in mind that there would be no ethanol in gasoline if Iowa did not hold the first presidential contest in the country. To win there, all candidates must swear to support continued ethanol industry subsidies. Ah, democracy at work.

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'Maineah', on 12 Jun 2011 - 13:31, said:snapback.png

Air cooled motor cycle engines are cooled by fuel, they run a very rich mix that is why comparatively small engines get poor mileage.

What?!?! huh.gif
Where in the world did you get that from?

38 years in the automotive trade. An air cooled stationary motorcycle has no cooling from moving air it takes a huge amount of heat energy to vaporize fuel. If the fuel is not there it can not take off the heat. If not a air cooled motorcycle would just plain lockup on a hot summer day ideling as it got hotter and hotter. Ever wonder why there are no air cooled cars and most motorcycles are now water cooled? You guessed it to save fuel. A big old Harley got about 25-30 mpg it weighed maybe 800# and had 2 cylinders that is not fuel efficient.

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Yeah, gotta keep that corn industry artificially propped up.

Subsidies were dropped a couple of years ago.

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" if Iowa did not hold the first presidential contest in the country. To win there, all candidates must swear to support continued ethanol industry subsidies. Ah, democracy at work."

Ah isn't that New Hampshire?

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Subsidies were dropped a couple of years ago.

I'm not really sure I feel like getting into a discussion about this...but are you saying that the government is no longer paying farmers to grow corn?

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Sorry I am so late on commenting on this, but if you want a source of where to buy non-ethanol gas in your state, you can get a free overlay (POI Megafile) for Microsoft Streets and Trips that has a database of "pure gas" stations in your area. I won't leave home without MS Streets and Trips and the latest Megafile. You can also download a comma delimited xcel file, or use the pure-gas iphone app or the android app. I like MS Streets and Trips for all the other functions

Edited by pbjeeps

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Well I can buy non ethanol in Maine it's $5.59 a gallon pretty much any airport has it. Ethanol is not some thing I stress over we have had it here in Maine for a long time and at least in my case I have had zero issues related to the ethanol, my last Tacoma 4X4 only had 285,000 miles on it feed with ethanol it's entire life.

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On a completely different side note and to derail this topic :lips-sealed:

How I deal with fuel when traveling

If I am going to be running at crusing speed and just burning through the tank, I will fill up with regular.

IF I am going to be in mountains or on winding roads with the ECT engaged I will use premium.

This seems to be the best combo for me.

I don't worry about alchol based fuel or not as I rarely have any choice. When I need fuel. I get fuel. My only choice is what grade and I base that decision on how I will be driving that tank through.

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I've been using premium on my trip. It's a couple bucks difference in the end.



We've probably already been over this back in the thread somewhere but what I always hear is that regular gas used to be in the 90's for octane. Now premium is usually 91 or something. The other two are in the 80s. So our vehicles were meant to run on higher octane than is really available, so getting higher octane is better.



But now that I have a Weber carb instead of the stock one, it might not make quite as much difference. I might be confusing a couple different issues, though... I still haven't sat down to calculate my mileage but I think I'm still getting in the 20 range, just like I was before.



In the end, I don't notice much difference...I agree. When I need gas, I get gas.


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Very interesting thread. Obviously we have some member's who KNOW what they are talking about based on education, experience, and backed up with links that confirm their findings/knowledge. One note on a more recent post about not having any issues. Praise God, I'm glad you didn't. But keep this in mind, newer vehicles were made to use ethanol. Older vehicles were meant for regular or plain unleaded gas. Older vehicles have component's in them that can be damaged by the ethanol/alcohol. I may have missed it as I read so much, but keep in mind ethanol blends have a shelf life! Depending on what experts you talk to the time frame varies. I believe possibly the climate plays a roll also. What does this mean? Ethanol blends are COMPRESSED into our regular unleaded fuels. Think about carbonated soft drinks. In time they go flat. In time Ethanol separates leaving you with 10% alcohol laying around and causing issues with some parts, performance, etc. I bought a Yamaha Grizzly from our local Yamaha dealer. The warranty will not cover ANY fuel related issues. A step further, they had a clear container of El0 Fuel that separated on their counter. You could shake it up or what ever and can't remix the fuel. Wasn't it Florida Marina's and Boat owners that brought class action suit against the state as the alcohol was melting through some fuel tanks and/or other components causing multiple boat/yacht fires? Not trying to scare anyone but pointing out as long as your driving your vehicles and using the fuel you should be okay but don't let your E blends sit around in older vehicles, mowers, ATV's etc. One problem was with the fuel needles in the carbs on motorcycles and ATV's. I literally saw the damage done to lawnmower carbs where certain parts melted, corroded, etc. Sorry for the long post. Here in NY they now have separate pumps for boats etc. that are ethanol free. The bad is the price is usually 1.00 or more per gallon. Hope this helps. I know it is a difficult topic on a lot of Forums but knowledge is power. Thank you for the links above!

Edited by Timbone

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Very interesting thread. Obviously we have some member's who KNOW what they are talking about based on education, experience, and backed up with links that confirm their findings/knowledge.

Internet URLs rarely prove anything unless based on primary documents.

A few comments. #1 - the idea that air-cooled engines are by nature ineffecient, is ridiculous. Some of the most fuel efficient engines in the world are air-cooled.

Take hard working engines like used in farm tractors. Deutz air-cooled diesels, out of hundreds of water-cooled, are in the top-ten of the most fuel efficient ever built.

For example. Fuel eff. in tractors is measured in HHGs instead of MPGs (Horsepower-hours-per-gallon). All figures from the Nebraska Test Institute.

Deutz air-cooled D-6206, 230 cubic inches, 17.6 HHG @ 60 horsepower

Deutz air-cooled D-4506, 172 cubic inche, 17.5 HHG,@ 43 horsepower

Compared to some water-cooled with similar sized engines

Ford 5600 diesel, 233 cubic inches, 15.5 HHG @ 60 horsepower

Farmall 656 diesel, 281 cubic inches, 14.3 HHG @ 61.5 horsepower:

John Deere 2520 gas, 202 cubic inches, 10.4 HHG @ 60 horsepower

Massey Ferguson MF235 diesel, 153 cubic inches, 16.3 HHG @ 42.3 horsepower

White-Iseki 245 diesel, 169.3 cubic inches, 13 HHG @ 43.7 horsepower

International 350, 175 cubic inches, 11.1 HHG @ 43 horsepower

The claim that air-cooled engines are cooled by the fuel is also silly. The valves are partially cooled by the air-fuel mixture, NOT the entire engines.

It has been claimed in the engineering field that the hotter an engine runs, the more fuel efficient it can be. Problem is - hot engines and lubricants self-destruct at high temps.

Many makers shy away from air-cooling because it's so problematic. Hard to get uniform cooling and air-cooled engines often develop hot-spots. It's also hard to make good heating systems in cars that lack a liquid cooling system. Back when there were a few air-cooled cars available, fuel mileage was comparable to equal sized and powered water-cooled cars. Like a Chevy Corvair versus a Ford Falcon.

In ref. to ethanol in fuel? Anyone who is honest and has a grip on the science knows it offers only loss. Takes more petroleum to put ethanol in gas then to just make it all from petro to start with. Ethanol also raises hell with certain soft materials used in fuel systems.

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Porsche.

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Frankly I have never had issues with ethanol fuels it can be an issue in boats or aircraft that sit but for me it has posed no problems my mowers chain saws etc. just get put away I don't drain them or run them out of gas the twin carb snowmobile sits all spring and summer with last year’s gas. The biggest problems came up when it was first put on the market alcohol is a solvent for shellac so all the tanks, carbs etc. now had dissolved shellac floating around in the fuel. I can buy ethanol free fuel it's only $5.59 a gallon but I think I'll just stick to the standard pump gas.

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Well I can buy non ethanol in Maine it's $5.59 a gallon pretty much any airport has it.

Aviation gas is heavily leaded and will ruin catalytic converters. Farmer's Co-ops are a good place to find non-ethanol gas, just make sure you buy it from the taxed pump.

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