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Here in Oregon, we're forced to use the 10% Ethanol fuel year around due to a mandate from the governor. Basically that means that we use "winter" fuel year around, which potentially shortens the life of engines in the long term and more importantly, makes us have to pay for fuel that results in not as good mileage. In theory, using 10% ethanol fuel results in less emissions into the atmosphere, but it seems that the consumer should be given the choice, much as one can choose to use the bags at the grocery store or bring your own from home.

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I agree with you that the 10% ethanol fuel at the pumps is crap. I believe we should have a choice of gas also in using blender pumps. With blender pumps you can choose from straight gas all the way to E85. With E10 you do lose MPG but not all of that is from the ethanol a lot of it has to do with that it's a lower quality gas that they use to cut with the ethanol. 10% is also a very bad ratio to mix with gas. 30% ethanol is a much better ratio to mix with and you will get better MPG on 30% ethanol then you will with 10% ethanol as long as it is a quality mix and not E30 gas that is rated at 87 octane. As you had said you losing MPG when using 10% ethanol but keep in mind ethanol is also keeping the price of gas down about .50 a gallon.

Not sure what you mean as far as a winter blend and also making your engine last as long.

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We have 10% ethanol here in Maine most of the bad things people say they do to engines is unfounded but bottom line there is less energy in the ethanol, will it cost a 10% hit in mileage no because there is some energy there. I am under the impression that ethanol is far more expensive to make then then it is to produce gasoline per gallon but the benefits as compared to the other stuffs toxins are a better alternative. When this country figures out how to make ethanol out of some thing other then food (corn) I'll feel a lot better too.

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I know what your saying about BTU rating and energy rating but there really is more to it then that. They have done many studies with cars on straight gas, e10, e20, and e30 and compaired MPG and e20 and e30 for a lot of cars get better gas milage then or e10 or straight gas even though the e0 and e10 have a higher BTU rating. I has to do with the chemical reaction of the two and having a more complete burn. If you would like to read a story on in here is a few. http://www.ethanol.org/pdf/contentmgmt/ACE_Optimal_Ethanol_Blend_Level_Study_final_12507.pdf

As far as price was ethanol is cheaper to produce then gas and also has a higher output rate. There are plenty of people out there that talk about how you only get 1.3 units of energy of ethanol for every 1 unit put in the thing you dont here is gas is .84 units out for every one unit in.

With using corn for ethanol they only use the outer shell of starch and the rest can be used for food. There are plenty of other ways we can make ethanol in the country it's just the demand needs to be there from the consumer. when we learn how to use it right it will be there.

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The price of Ethanol is not cheaper, its subsidized with money that we are borrowing from our children.

Stop the government subsidies and ethanol goes away.

John Mc

88 Dolphin 4 Auto

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The price to produce ethanol is cheaper then gas when oil is around $45-$50 a barrel. At today's price of oil at $98 a barrel yes ethanol is cheaper to produce. When oil is at $50-$70 ethnaol beats oil even without the subsidy even taking into account the 2/3 energy loss that today's engine produce from running ethanol. This is also with today's ethanol production efficiency rates right now which are getting much better every year.

Farmers are goverment subsidized wheather or not they are in ethanol production. With the ethanol market is rises corn prices so there is not a need for farming to be subsidized. So no if you stop goverment subsidies farming will go away but not ethanol because that seems to be their money maker. And do you really want to get started on what the goverment has to pay to make sure we have a source of oil?

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And do you really want to get started on what the goverment has to pay to make sure we have a source of oil?

NO - I probably shouldn't have even went in this direction, but over the past few years I've become an active extreme conservative and just couldn't help myself. :headbonk::headbonk::headbonk:

John Mc

88 Dolphin 4 Auto

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Present ethanol hand out is $.45 per gallon not to mention the fact it's mostly made from food products and that does hurt the food bill.

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We have a brand new Ethenol plant 20 miles south of here, capable of 20,000 per day, hasn't produced one drop. The Government Subsidy spent over 100 mil to build the plant, but the subsidy for the crop dried up, so not one grain of corn has went to the plant.

The current plan is to cut the plant up and sell it at auction. (There are several evaporators that my company is very interested in._

My tax dollars at work.. Ethanol fuel is not economical at this time and cannot stand on its own merit, Same with Solar and Wind energy.

Sorry, that's the way it is!

John Mc

88 Dolphin 4 Auto

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Yes ethanol gets .45 a gal from the goverment but like I had stated before this is not even needed if the price of oil is over $60 or somewhere around that. As far as food prices the cost of what your buying that is going towards the food is less then 20% of the cost of the item. When food prices go up and everybody blaims ethanol most of the cost spike is not. When the price of oil goes up everything goes up including the cost of food. This has a much larger impact on the price then the price of the corn.

There are a couple of ethanol plants that's this has happened to. I bill came out stating how much ethanol production we need to have per year all the way up to 2022. The problem is that bill was projecting making ethanol faster then we can build up the pumps to sell it. If they would mix it at e30 then we wouldnt have a probelm but as this thread is a perfect example of the what the public thinks they know about ethanol. If we would back this plan and would also push car makers to produce these ethanol effienicent engines we would have a lot stronger economy and a much more stable fuel supply.

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Burton,

Ethanol receives subsidies between 1.05 and 1.30 per gallon from State and fed. Oil gets approximately 0.03 per gallon. (ref Cato- "Ethanol Makes Gasoline Costlier, Dirtier") et al.

Please keep in mind that many of the midwest states do not tax ethanol at the pump. this can amount to additional 0.45 to 0.65 per gallon.

This does not include the effect that Ethanol production has on the cost of other products, Anything that needs to be grown in the ground, its price has been increased i.e. feed for cattle has effected the price of beef, My box of Cheerio's has increased 45% in three years. Ethanol production crops make up approximately 12-15% of the plant-able fields. Every one of these receive a subsidy from State or Federal government

If we were to burn 100% Ethanol in all of our vehicles, we would need to mow down every square inch of our country and plant corn, AND it still wouldn't be enough.

Ethenol is NOT the renewable energy source as it is being touted. 75% of the production of a gallon of ethanol comes from a gallon of oil, coal, gas and diesel. i.e the tractor that plows, plants, and harvests the field. The truck that delivers the grain. the plant that distills the Ethanol.

My CONCLUSION - I agree that Ethanol is a good alternative to some of our energy needs, and in the future, will move into the forefront. This will happen when the Market place makes it a viable energy source, and its able to compete in the energy field on its own, without the false pricing controls that the Government introduces.

By the way, I'm a farmer.

John Mc

88 Dolphin 4 Auto

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I do understand what your saying and I am all for getting programs off the goverment money. I too grew up on a farm and in an area where you worked hard for your money. I'm now in the military in CA located in a city that is always top 5 on the unemployment ratings in the country. It's sad this state puts out $90,000,000 a day for unemployment. Like I said I agree with you 100% about getting this program and most other programs off the goverment it's just there are 5000 other things I would cut from the list before I cut this one.

I'm not saying food prices didnt go up I am just saying that only a fraction of the increase of the price your paying at the store is because of this. Yes when the price of corn goes up all the other crops go up as well. Again I dont see this as a 100% bad thing. You have to remember that the US can produce some of the cheapest food in the world, so cheap that it puts other countrys out of business because the can't compete with the world price of food. The price is so cheap but yet the goverment shells out money to farming. Why dont we let the price of food go up so the farmers can take care of themselfs and this will also spark business in other parts of the world to grow more food. As far as animal feed that is a whole different argument. I myself am a supporter of free range farming which has a much higher cost at the store in the first place over these other meats that are mass produced. Dont think I am a hippy or a extreme green party guy because I am not I dont pick one side of the goverment and base all my thinking with them I take each issue and put my own thoughts into it. I believe we have gotten so use to everything being so cheap and the second the price of something goes up we think the world is going to end. If you go to wal mart and buy a box fan for $5 and then you in a ace hardware and see a box fan for $30 you think wow that is a rip off. When the one box fan was produced in china paying cheap labor and the other one built by a factory in the US. We do the same thing for our food. We go to wal mart and buy all this food the is coming from these food factories that hire illegal workers under the table and have unsafe conditions with dieses outbreaks in food etc. And then we are in shock when these stories come out in the news about outbreaks. Do you know how much work is involed in the whole food process? Well I assume you do if your a farmer haha but anyways, if you add it all up that is the price your paying for top notch food such as free range meats and etc. It's not that that kind of meat is expensive it's just that is the price that meat is sposed to be, the other stuff just cuts a bunch of corners and sells it for 1/3 of the price but people now think that 1/3 is the normal price it should be. So yes your box of cheerio's has increased 45% in the last three years but my price of gas as increased 300% and it would have increased even more without ethanol.

We dont have the oil in the country to support our demand, Well unless you count shale oil but the goverment and the modern day public will not let us go that route anyways. What we do have right here and right now is ethonal. We already have the technology to use it more effient it's just that car builders are not going to build a car that's main selling point is ethanol when 99% of the public say's that's stuff is crap it will eat through your engine block, that stuff is only 85 octane, that stuff only gets half the MPG. etc The real problem is not with the fuel itself the real problem is with the public backing or really just public knowledge about the product. For the ethanol production layout until 2022 (which I dont 100% agree with myself) has corn ethanol maxed out in 2015 but leveled off in 2010 so there is not going to be much more of a drive on the corn market then there is right now. Cellulosic ethanol started up in 2010 but only brought in about 1,000,000 (because there was only one plant built) in 2011 though there is going to be 25x that amount of cellulosic ethonal. With the layout plan they have they have cellulosic ethanol bringing in 16 billion gallons a year by 2022 and corn staying at 15 billion gallons a year.Now what they didnt add into this plan is alge ethonal which I think is an even better idea. Alage and reproduce it's self 10x in one day in a sunny area. They have plans laid out that they could produce enough ethanol for this country just by building these alage plants in the deserts of nevada. Now I now that is not realistic but with the sources of the rest of ethanol already I believe it would take a huge chunk of our oil that why buy from other countries.

So yes the structure of how they are doing ethanol in this country right now being run by the goverment is worng I agree with you. But to say the structure is not there for ethanol (not just corn ethanol) to become a main stream source of fuel and not just a trendy green hippy fuel is just not true in my opion. There are so many options out there to make more ethanol with not using corn but these companies are not going to build these plants if the corn ethanol plants that the goverment built (like the one you talked about) are not even being used because we are not using the fuel as consumers. So like I stated earlier the main probelm I see is not with the fuel itself, it's with the public backing and more knowledge about the product.

Wow this thread has gotten a little off topic from fuel types haha.

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Well it's still fuels. Barzil has been using ethanol for over 40 years but they planed for this even though they are sitting on lots of oil they burn palm oil in diesels. it can be done but not by politicians corn is subsidized switch grass is not for instance any one can grow switch grass all most any where but there is nothing in it for politicians agrabiz makes big money growing corn and they feed politicians money. I'm for any form of renewable alternative energy but until we can keep the politics out of it, it will not work.

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Well, To get back on thread, I did burn a lot of E10 passing through the midwest. I was a little concerned about fuel system components, but I don't believe I had any problems.

I had changes in mileage, but I can't say it was fuel related. We bumped up the speed to cut our travel times.

As a note, I have an approval letter to burn auto fuel in my plane, but one of the things that we need to be extremely careful of is ethanol.

Ethanol will absorb water, which when changing altitudes can separate back out and freeze. Unless you can got your Toyhouse from o to 20,000 ft on one tank of gas, This probably isn't an issue with land based use.

Wheres Greg with his rocket powered Toyhouse :-)

John Mc

88 Dolphin 4 Auto

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Back when I was in college my Agricultural teacher told me that the BTU’s needed to grow corn and convert it to alcohol exceeded the BTU’s in the alcohol.

That was when you counted ALL the inputs, tractor fuel, parts, irrigation, fertilizer, transportation, fermenting, distilling, and the like. I did not want to hear that but it seems he was correct. The reason that we have not had ethanol before recently is that it “Did Not Pencil Out” as they say… Nobody could make money at it. Even when corn prices were low. In steps the government with politically correct legislation & subsidies & Wal laa we now have ethanol. The physics of the BTU conversion did not change, rather the politics.

I see that Derek wanted to know about my Propane powered Toyota in a post above, just saw that. Also in college I had an Organic Chemistry professor that was from Phillips Petroleum (now you know how old I am) & he turned me on to Propane. Propane has a much higher octane (112-115) and as a dry gas does not wash the oil off the cylinders & pistons like gasoline (a solvent). Although it has way less BTU’s per gallon than gas, it essentially combusts every last BTU where gas does not completely combust every molecule (thus pollution). So Propane just puts out CO2, Water, and Nox (Nitrous oxide) while gas engines put out “unburned hydrocarbons” + carbon monoxide in addition to water & CO2 + Nox. So it runs really clean emissions wise and you can tear off all the EPA mandated BS on the engine and still exceed EPA mandates for low emissions.

I put my first set up on a 72 Datsun Pickup 1600 cc, cooled the intake, jacked the ignition timing way up & could have raised the compression a lot, but I was poor in college. Man that thing hauled behind. It dropped from 25 MPG on gas to 18 on Propane, but propane was 17 cents and gas was a quarter…

After 275, 000 miles the engine still had brand new compression by the tranny was noisy so I took all the stuff off the rig and stuck the exact same “carb” converter, and tank on my “new” 88 Toyota 22r truck which now has 275000 miles on it. It also dropped MPG in the conversion but until China started sucking up all the (used to be surplus) propane, the economics were still good.

All this talk about ethanol when propane really is a clean running fuel to begin with and goes further per BTU (but not per gallon), cleaner than anything else

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alright well this is an aurgument that just keeps going back and forth now. the energy in to energy out ratio of ethanol is 1 in to 1.3 out. The energy in to out ratio of gas is 1 in to .87 out. You name all that stuff about what needs to be done for ethanol, how about the process for oil. If there is enough demand to build a platform in the middle of the ocean and drill down miles deep just to get the raw product seems like a lot of work to get that energy. Like maineah said look at brazil has done to fuel their country on ethanol. I understand they have sugar cane there which has much more sugar content then corn but it just shows you can run a country on ethanol.

We cant really do much to change the process of how the goverment has run the program up till now but what we can do is use the fuel. If the demand goes up for this fuel then it will enter the private sector more. The same situation I just talked about oh how the demand of oil have made drilling in remote places worth the expense could be the same drive that would take place in the ethanol market.

Waiter have you herd of AGE85 fuel? Its an avation fuel and containes 85% ethanol. One of the main selling points they say is it helps fight off icing in the fuel lines. When water get's into ethanol is has the ability to be able to spread in out even and pass through the system with no problems. When water gets in gas in get's together in pockets and can cause problems when it hits the system all at once. If you ever used the additive dry gas all it is doing is grabing the water and spreading it. It uses alcohol to do this.

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alright well this is an aurgument that just keeps going back and forth now. the energy in to energy out ratio of ethanol is 1 in to 1.3 out. The energy in to out ratio of gas is 1 in to .87 out. You name all that stuff about what needs to be done for ethanol, how about the process for oil. If there is enough demand to build a platform in the middle of the ocean and drill down miles deep just to get the raw product seems like a lot of work to get that energy. Like maineah said look at brazil has done to fuel their country on ethanol. I understand they have sugar cane there which has much more sugar content then corn but it just shows you can run a country on ethanol.

We cant really do much to change the process of how the goverment has run the program up till now but what we can do is use the fuel. If the demand goes up for this fuel then it will enter the private sector more. The same situation I just talked about oh how the demand of oil have made drilling in remote places worth the expense could be the same drive that would take place in the ethanol market.

Waiter have you herd of AGE85 fuel? Its an avation fuel and containes 85% ethanol. One of the main selling points they say is it helps fight off icing in the fuel lines. When water get's into ethanol is has the ability to be able to spread in out even and pass through the system with no problems. When water gets in gas in get's together in pockets and can cause problems when it hits the system all at once. If you ever used the additive dry gas all it is doing is grabing the water and spreading it. It uses alcohol to do this.

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Well, its going to get more interesting. I just heard that the Feds did not renew the $6,000,000,000.00 Ethanol subsidy (6 billion / year).

This particular subsidy gave Oil Refiners $0.45 per gallon to blend ethanol in gasoline. ( The main reason you can buy E10 for less than regular unleaded)

The bill also ends the $0.54 per gallon import Tariff.

http://www.msnbc.msn...07/ns/politics/

There are many mid west States that still subsidize Ethanol, but this may be the end of Ethanol until the price of gasoline gets to about $6.00 per gallon, and Ethanol can then compete with it.

John Mc

88 Dolphin 4 Auto

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I've seen the research on AGE85. I think the certification requires testing of the fuel to ensure its dry and has not absorbed water. Jet fuel is like this, the certificate requires ongoing testing at the final distribution point (normally the airport) to ensure it has not absorbed a certain percentage of water.

Aviation fuel operates a lot differently than auto fuel. Its under very tight production, test, and handling controls. This is one of the reasons I pay $5.50 per gallon for 100 Octane Low Lead fuel for my plane.

The Aircraft is certified to burn very specific fuels. Even burning automotive fuel in an aircraft requires a re-certification of the aircraft for that specific fuel. Very exhaustive testing of the fuel / airframe combination to receive the certification.

With my Supplemental Type Certificate (STC) to burn Automotive fuel. One of the specifications is to test the fuel for ethanol. Ethanol is not allowed in the fuel. Fortunately its an easy test, put about 1 qt of fuel in a small glass container, add one or two drops of water, shake well, and see if the water disappears. If it does, the Ethanol absorbed it, and this fuel cannot be used.

John Mc

88 Dolphin 4 Auto

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The fact that they did not renew the subidy is great news. All that money was doing was going to the oil companies. The oil companies could cut their gas with a cheaper ethanol and get paid .45 a gallon for it, it just wasnt making sense. This also helped them because they could make a poor quality gas and mix in with ethanol to bring it up to the legal minimum. I dont think this is going to be the end of ethanol at all, like I said all they are doing is talking $6 billion from the oil companies $85 billion a year profit. How do you figure it will not be around till gas is $6.00 a gallon? Ethanol is still cheaper and the oil companies will still cut it with gas to save money they just wont be getting paid for the goverment to do it now. 10 years ago E10 was only around in the big cities to cut down polution but when oil spiked 10 years ago that's when everyone start mixing e10 because it was cheaper.

I just wanted to show you that ethanol in avation is out there. I too work in the avation industry now. I am a jet engine mechanic for the U-2 and global hawk airframes so I do know a thing or two about fuel preperation for high altitude as our planes fly to 70,000+ feet.

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Perhaps I am missing the point, but if it takes more energy to get the oil out of the ground than what is in it, how can you possibly get it out of the ground? Wouldn’t you run out of energy pretty soon? So I guess I don’t understand Burton’s statement

the energy in to energy out ratio of ethanol is 1 in to 1.3 out. The energy in to out ratio of gas is 1 in to .87 out.”

I am pretty sure that they are using oil energy (not nuclear, hydro, solar) to pump the oil out, so why aren’t these filty rich oil companies going broke?

I do understand that since quite a bit of the easier to get oil in the USA is “off limits” now because of various reasons, mostly political, we find ourselves (1) importing it from the outer side of the earth (2) drilling in out of sight places like Alaska (3) drilling in out of sight places like the ocean (4) mostly buying it from out of sight places like Canada, Mexico, & Venezula so it would cost more to move it from somewhere else, out of sight that if we drilled our own oil. Don’t tell me we used all ours up because we have a lot here in the USA.

Like Burton, I would really like to be able to have the USA “Grow” its own fuel supply, it would just feel right somehow. However, in reality, most of our biodiesel & ethanol comes from third world countries. The several Oregon biofuel companies that us Oregonian taxpayers subsidized have not panned out. Our USA biofuel subsidies are by and large going offshore rather than to our cornbelt growers. And we read about these massive tropical mudslides that bury villiagers in rainstorms recently. What is usually left unsaid by the media is that these tropical hillsides had recently been cleared of the deep rooted native vegetation and planted to shallow rooted Oil Palms for biodiesel production. The native vegetation had been holding the soil through previous rains but the palms can’t.

As a person that wants to have a “lighter footprint” on the planet I got a Toyota motorhome, & like everyone else on this site, I think we all want to research and live “lightly”. But there always seems to be “more to the story” than what passes as the news these days. For example we were told that mercury was so toxic that we must get rid of all the dangerous old fashion thermometers. Next they tell us that the newly mandated light bulbs have mercury in them so “dispose of them properly”. Congress mandates that cars get better MPG one day then they mandate that the fuels contain less BTU’s the next day. They probably flunked science class but it takes BTU’s to get MPG’s…

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The US is the largest producer of ethanol in the world. We produce twice the amount that brazil does and we even export ethanol. Ethanol is a fuel and can be made number of different ways. As it is now in the US it's well known to come from corn but as other sources get larger the corn ethanol will become only a fraction of the total output. Again cellulosic ethanol began is 2010 and will out produce the corn market in the next few years. Cellulosic ethanol is made from bio waste and not from a food source.

So your going to bring up a mudslide that "could" have been started by these biodiesel plants? How about the gulf oil spill????? I just get this picture in my mind of someone telling you a candy bar is bad for you while they are smoking a cigarette.

Again there is much more to it then just BTU numbers. The gas engine is only 16%-18% effencient so there for your not using anywhere close to the full number of BTU's for power. If you rise the number of effencieny, which you can with a fuel like ehtanol, you can use a lot more of those BTU's. The more complete burn of the fuel you can get the better effencieny rate you will have. There are guy's that will run CNG kit's on their diesel trucks to work with the diesel. It mixes in at the intake of the engine. Some of these guys are getting upwards of 40 MPG out of a full size diesel truck that would usally get around 20 MPG. The BTU rating of CNG is about 1/4 of diesel so how could that be. It's because it lets the fuel burn more completey. CNG always works very well in diesel engine's because of the high compression because CNG is around 120-130 octane if I can remember correct. Even if you want to do a test for yourself try mixing some ethanol into your tank you have now at a ratio higher then 10%. I know with my 2007 jetta I get the best MPG at around 5/8 of a tank of gas and the rest topped off with E85. Even though this would give it a overall lower BTU rating then regular gas this still gives the best MPG and my engine is just a stock engine set to run on gas so just think if this engine was built to take better advantage of the ethanol. So I doubt they flunked science class you just have to look into it deeper.

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Derek, Good article.

John Mc

88 Dolphin 4 Auto

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