Rehabing my 1990 Toyota Winnebago (Project Sog) Advice desperately neede!

[Gulfstream Greg]

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You can create an album in the "Files and Photo" section here also. Then link the images back to your posts. Unless you have a facebook account and login the pictures cannot be viewed. Just a heads up.

[spyder62]

Dont do facebook so couldnt view picts or link.

Mikesta ...

Same here don't do face book. New on here and reading up on post looks like I will be following the same path with rot on my new 83 Dolphin.

For roofing you might check a metal roofing company and get some 29 gage coil stock. It comes painted and most have a 20 year paint warranty.

The stock we used at work was 39 inches wide cut to any length you needed. Get it cut the take the sheets over to a sheet metal shop and have open hems done on the long sides one up one down. That way the sheets will interlock. But caulk in the hem, place next sheet in and flatten them down. Lay them on the roof so the seams run across the camper and start at the back working to the front. That way any wind driven water will blow over the lap. Anther way is to use Marine Ply then cover with a rubber roofing membrane. What we used Had a 20 year warranty also and is self sealing when you screw the trim down.

rich

[Mikesta]

I picked up some testing materials today.

For testing:

1" Foam, 4x8 sheet

5.7" Luan plywood

1x1.5 .65od Square steel (reminant)

I spent some time in the metal shop... debating on what kind of square to go with. Also spent time in the hardware store looking at different sizes of foam board. This is all new stuff to me.

I need to spend some time drawing the top out. Including electrical, speaker wires, AC wires, Skylight etc.

I still have to measure, but thinking about doing 16" on center between metal beams. They will sit on top of the existing sidwall frames. This will give my family 1 additional inch of head room. I'm still crunching though.

Also looked at some different paneling for the interior walls.... didn't buy any yet though.

I'm thinking the roof construction will be very simular to what it was:

It was from inside out.

OLD

Wall board

glue

foam and intermittent 1x1, 1x2 and 1x4 boards.

glue

Steel roof

Rubber

NEW

Wall board

glue

foam and either 1x1 square steel or 1x1.5 square every 16 - 24"

glue

Luan 5.2 or 5.7, cant remember

EPDM or Fiberglass

Don't worry, I won't crush it yet. There is allot of planning that needs to still go into this BEFORE the roof goes back on though.

Layout (we are thinking of an outdoor shower and axing the toilet now)

Wife says expresso machine needs a spot - no exceptions

Once I figure out that junk, I'll rip the floors out and possibly create some sub-floor storage spaces (expecially if we get rid of the black water tank)

Lowes hardware 1 and 1/4 inch foam

Possible choice for walls and ceiling

This is some 1 x 1.5 .65 wall thickness.... actually it might be thinner, the stuff I got looks thicker. They come in sticks of 240". The motorhome is 83.5" outside skin to outside skin. That may give me 3 sticks if I go inside metal fram to inside metal frame. Need to measure still....

Stuff sitting in the garage, awaiting a garage cleaning and some assembly test.

Steel reminent... so only cost $11 bucks! Score!

[Mikesta]

Dont do facebook so couldnt view picts or link.

Mikesta ... oh where do i start..looks like your in the same boat as me. I had,have a total rot box. Except you got good metal siding.In the begining i thought it was no big deal and often doubted myself and still do, actually today while opening up my front cab. I dont think i would have done what im doing if i had known what i was going to be doing...um, no what i should say is i wouldn't do it again. But my doubters keep me motivated. I was thinking how it would have been easier if i removed all siding and reframed whole thing. So if you do rebuild i would suggest removing siding first. oh wait a minute are your studs good? I wouldn't fiberglass roof to metal siding due to different expansions. I'd love to see you rebuild but dont no what to say

You never know what your up against till you tear it half way apart. I wouldn't recommend this unless you have a canopy or garage to store it under while you do the work... expecially if its raining.

I'm confused though. Your avatar shows a fibershell I think? I haven't seen a destroyed fiberglass shell yet. I'd think it would be much tougher to destroy to the point mine was. At any rate, I'd tear it down to where you think you've run out of wet wood, mold etc. Then build from there. There is a guy on google somwehere that built a 1986? travel trailer... he though he was going to do a quick patch job, but by the time he was done, he replaced everything but the skin. That gave me the confidence to at least tear into this. Now with the comments on here and the additional research, this is actually pretty simple... expecially if you've remodelled a house in the past.

I'll rebuild this.... don't worry, its not going into the scrap... yet!

Do you have pictures of what you did today?

[Mikesta]

Here is my attempt at a cross section, whipped up what was in my head.

Thoughts? Its close to what Winny did, all but the materials... substitute Laun for Winny's thin metal shell and Steel for Winny's 1x1, 1x2 and 1x4's.

I still need to measure what is out there, Wife said out with the shower and toilet. We have done the dance and have motorhomed for at least 5 months of our married life.... we both agree, there is better use of space than those Items. Shower - getting moved to outside the rig, will make a compartment for a shower hose/head like my 92 winny had. We will get a portable/foldup toilet for emergencys.

The only difference I'm thinking is making the beams 16" on center, this would allow me to lay and glue sections together with 1/2 beam per edge of wood, so 3/4 inches...... Gluing one piece is going to be tricky!

[85mirage]

I'm confused though. Your avatar shows a fibershell I think?

Yeah i got a Mirage and a Shasta. The Shasta is under repair. Look a couple posts down "burnt Shasta" I documented alot in picts and etc. Have to search Winnie dont remember his rebuild.

Do you have pictures of what you did today?

posted below

[Gulfstream Greg]

After seeing those images I completely forgot that the frames around my windows are wood. I took the front window frame completely out and rebuilt it. It was fastened together just like 85mirage pic showing the long staples on the sides. The frame is now glued with gorilla glue and screwed. And looking back and comparing I had it easy because all I had to do was peel off the bad insides and glue and staple new siding back on. Note above front window where there is no foam. It was like that when I opened it up. I thought that was strange. Almost wonder now if the coach had been damaged from an outside collision and in the repair the foam had been ripped out and not replaced as the foam was jagged along the edges like it had been broken out. Anyhow it has foam now.

[85mirage]

Nice Greg

you used the good stuff,what was that $30+ a 4x8 sheet. maybe Maple,...umm birch? Plan on painting mine so couldn't justify nor afford the xtra cost . Did you remove corner curved molding? i removed screws but not molding,,yet. reluctant to remove as now i know price of it and the diffuculty of removing and not bending it so i cant reuse. able to remove perimeter wood frame but still thinkin of how to install new frame without removing molding. what do ya think? mikesta?

[Mikesta]

Not sure if your talking about inner or outer. Do you have a picture?

[bajadulce]

First, I just want to say I am not a negative person. And I'm certainly not a picky person. These pictures however make my blood boil and my stomach turn. These manufacturer's need to be shot. Project Sog, Mirage85, Greg's damage, and nearly every other motorhome water damage I see throughout this forum (including my "wrap around corner" Sunrader windows (now perm. removed!)) is usually due to some inherently bad design. And a few of these coaches are less than 10 years old! What's worse is the same ugly problems can happen all over again just when you feel confident you are water tight. A motorhome should come off the assembly line with a guarantee of 50 watertight years thnx to a solid design. Instead they appear to be leaking right off the lot and usually take about 5 years before ppl notice the mold and rot. By then the company is long gone and the consumer is left with what amounts to mobile home tin can construction but worse!

....... Breathe... Breathe... Breathe...

Ok back to these pics and contributing something of value to this thread. Starting with the rafters sitting atop the walls, you are going to have to deal with a band around the perimeter (the height of your rafters). There's nothing wrong with this, but you'll probably have to overlap the roof to your wall since you can't really fuse anything to the existing metal as a one-piece seamless joint. If the roofing material can bend around this band as one piece all the better. If you don't have the means to bend a clean corner to wrap around the roof edges to the wall, try some 90 degree flashing to tuck under your roof metal and over your walls. Basically roof metal overlaps flashing which overlaps walls. I'm not a metal fabricator, just a home builder, so my advice is based on everyday building materials for the average Joe.

Another idea might be to weld your crossmembers flush with your wall tops? If I read right, it sounded as tho you have existing metal studs in the frame? Or maybe even some hangars?

Personally, I wouldn't touch any project made of metal and seams. Fiberglass all the way! But you're kinda stuck and gotta do the best you can. Also I mentioned earlier that it wouldn't be the best idea to try and meld fiberglass to metal due to the expansions etc. I gotta say tho that while it isn't IDEAL, it will work and probably work better than a lot of these goofy trim pieces I see "super glued" to the corners. Obviously if you were to "fuse" fiberglass to metal, it should be a healthy overlap. A good 10" band or so. With that much "grip" I would feel confident that there would be no separation. One idea might be to pop rivet a band of fiberglass to the wall and then fiberglass to that band. You're looking at a pretty bulky joint, but it would definitely hold.

Anywho.. I could ramble on and on about this stuff, but the bottom line is you gotta get a healthy overlap on your seams or some way to fuse these panels and where they meet walls etc. Where there's a will there's a way and I'm sure you'll figure out something. Myself, sometimes I get too caught up in trying to visualize every step in the fabrication of something and many a time things become apparent once you have something to work with. Guess that's why things have "prototypes".

Well good luck w/ your venture. You'll have fun regardless. Myself, I'm not sure I can handle visiting these types of threads anymore. Repairing dry rot and refurbishing/remodeling homes is what I've done for a living for the past 20+ years and this just gets too personal. I want to just reach through the screen and help fix this stuff.. and then go burn down the factories of the manufactures that put this crap out.

EDIT:

P.s. I voted make it a $500 flatbed work truck and then find a fiberglass camper!

[Gulfstream Greg]

Nice Greg

you used the good stuff,what was that $30+ a 4x8 sheet. maybe Maple,...umm birch? Plan on painting mine so couldn't justify nor afford the xtra cost . Did you remove corner curved molding? i removed screws but not molding,,yet. reluctant to remove as now i know price of it and the diffuculty of removing and not bending it so i cant reuse. able to remove perimeter wood frame but still thinkin of how to install new frame without removing molding. what do ya think? mikesta?

The paneling is 1/4 inch Luann then stained. I think it was $22 a sheet for 4x8. Took 3 sheets to do it all. It did not have corner moulding made of wood, it was a rubber piece that actually fit between the wall and roof.

Project Sog, Mirage85, Greg's damage, and nearly every other motorhome water damage I see throughout this forum (including my own "wrap around" front windows) is usually due to some inherently bad design.

Here is a pic of how roof covering (way below) is constructed. Its what is circled in red. My leak occurred at the "Front Termination". It appears as though someone applied a patch over the entire seam but failed to do it correctly and at the ends there were previous open holes for water to enter. When I finally do get around to replacing the membrane I will know more such as was the seam damaged from some sort of collision. As for the front window I have to agree that life would be better with out it. I do have somewhere around the window or front where water is still getting in but can not find it. The window is sealed against the outer skin with new butyl tape and then with Lexall sealant around the edges. When I had the window out that I would take it apart and reseal it. That was not possible. Its sealed like a car windshield. Sealant is applied to the inside of the frame and the window pressed down onto the sealant then a snap in trip piece into the space between the frame and glass. The trim piece appears to be just ornamental. The trip piece though has shrunk about 6 inches in length. So I filled in that space with black elastomeric caulking and sealed the edges of the trim all the way around. The water seems to be getting into that frame somewhere and then later when driving around and getting on angles runs out of the frame. No water is getting inside that I know of so my guess is the window frame is really not sealed around the trim piece. Anyhow it is discouraging and needs further investigation and work. My front wrap is aluminum and there is the possibility of there being some microscopic holes. I am not sure what I could coat it with that would look OK. Paint seems the best choice. As for wrap around windows I don't think I can call mine that. I have to little side windows and one little front window. I like to open the side window and get some fresh air when sleeping so in other words I like the side windows. The Sunraders wrap around style are prone to leaking because of the way the window is sealed into the fiberglass. They use a rubber piece and with age the rubber piece shrinks, gets distorted and you can imagine the rest. It looks unique but is really a disastrous way to put in a window.

There are only 4 ways water can get in. 1- a hole gets punctured or small corrosion holes happen. 2 - the termination between the roof and walls goes bad from age or maybe a blow from a tree etc. 3 - roof vents, A/C seal etc. and 4 - around windows and exterior doors, running lights etc. We know about sealing around the edges of windows and vents but who ever works over the termination joints. Thats on my summer list this year. Note in the picture the use od "Lap Sealant" along the edges of the termination bar. Mine just has butyl tapes squeezed out.

[spyder62]

First, I just want to say I am not a negative person. And I'm certainly not a picky person. These pictures however make my blood boil and my stomach turn. These manufacturer's need to be shot.

I have to agree after starting to find the rot in my new toy. I think these were designed to rot from within. No vapor protection at all, air gaps to let water in and even the wood that was used was second rate and would better off being used as fire wood. In fact one piece was not water damaged but looked like it was termite eaten before it was installed in as it was the only one with any damage in the area. There are and were better ways to seal these up then were used might take a little more time and cost more but much better product in the end.

rich

[Mikesta]

wow... hope you still hang out bajadulce, your advice has helped me. I agree with craftmanship. the nicer toyota rigs were always garaged.

I've had 5 of these homes and every one of them had some sor to leak. Of course the fiberglass shells hold up better. Making the Sunrader the most expensive of them all.

However these machines were what 30K+ new? I have no clue. You'd think they'd last longer. But thats why I'm in business to. To extend the life of these and other motorhomes. Even Class A's degrade and the newer stuff is not an exception. If you leave your rig in the elements for 5 years... it will start to leak. With my canopy... problem solved. Extending the life of your RV. I still would have like to see at least a 50 year application, but 20-30 years seem to be the extent of time before a major overhaul.. unless you pay more money for one that is garaged its whole life. (there is one not even a block from me that is a 92. Immaculate outside! Pristine! but its under a carport too... Makes all the difference

I see what your saying there on extending the roof. I don't have a solution for that yet. I've also contemplated simply welding in the metal rafters, but run into the problem of gluing the top together on the ground and dropping it on the roof. If i welded them in, I'd have to figure out a system of gluing the inner panel in. But I totally hear you. My current trim will not suffice.

[krj]

I'm with Baja, fiberglass all the way!

I saw a perfect little tow behind for your project the other day. A 14' all fiberglass Scamp. Unbolt one from its chasis, plunk it on your new toyota flatbed and away you go! It looks like, however, your pretty committed to the Winny overhaul. Good luck, look forward to following the progress.

Thanks for the props on the flatbed, just kept it super simple. I've got an old tonneau cover that is going to turn into a convertible top. Figure it will make a good summer work truck or river shuttle rig.

Not too long ago I found a link to a thread on yotatech about a guy who made a really nice flatbed from an old Winny. Can't seem to find that link again. I've tried searching on yotatech but no luck. Anyone see this one and remember where it was?

Have fun

[85mirage]

Not sure if your talking about inner or outer. Do you have a picture?

Was talking about the outer or exterior metal corner molding thats bedded with butyl tape.

[Mikesta]

Was talking about the outer or exterior metal corner molding thats bedded with butyl tape.

Ok, I don't know how stuck your is on there. But mine popped right off after unscrewing all the screws. Now keep in mind that on my rig, I think they put it on incorrectly leaving the double sided caulk tape off between the caulk's top side and the bottom side of the trim. This is why I think this rig leaked so bad. If yours had the tape lifted before the trim was put on, it will be much harder to take off.

I think it may be hard, but it will come off in pieces so not too bad. Take your time and use heat... I used a torch.

[bajadulce]

Yes, those "termination points" and the way in which these things are sealed up was what I was referring to as poor design. Granted those corner pieces are very thin and the pictures don't represent their true thickness, but those corners would seem to work better tucked under the roof not on top of it! This just doesn't make sense to me. Overlaps should follow standard layering procedure such as siding on your house etc. Start with the bottom layer and then work your way up. You wouldn't start a roof at the ridge and then lay shingles towards the eaves on top of one another.

But I understand they are trying to hide the roof's profile so that's why it is the way it is. What I would suggest is the use of 2 pieces of trim. The first would serve as flashing and be placed over the wall and under the roof like standard flashing techniques etc. A 2nd trim piece could cover this unsightly roof cross-section (current config). Here's a pic of said flashing trim pieces (minus the 2nd piece of outside trim). Obviously water can wick up this on a flat roof. A slightly pitched roof and you're golden.

First image is the standard stock corner trim atop the roof decking. (potential water dam/penetration at red circle)

2nd image is what I would propose (the roof sits atop the trim) (potential water wicking at red circle)

3rd image would be ideal w/ a sloped roof.

* a 2nd piece of trim could cover #2 & #3.

Another thing you might investigate is that cloth tape they use on mobile home roofs to add some extra protection to that seam. Not sure what the tape is called, but it is a cloth tape that gets impregnated with asphalt/rubber coating etc. I really would have to just look at one of these things up close to have better suggestions. Whatever the case, the joining techniques from the manufacturers appear to be in need of some additional waterproofing.

[Seattleguy]

Ahhh, I think I remember seeing this rig posted on Craigslist! Looks like quite the project...but good to see you are bringing it back to life. We just finished rebuilding the upper bunk in my Nova Star (in addition to a bunch of other engine work). Front window had leaked previously and rotted out all the luan on the base. Luckily it's got the molded fiberglass shell, so no structural damage. I had the original front window fiberglassed over completely, so hopefully less prone for leaks now.

Lowe's carries some 1/4 to 1.5" foam/insulation that you may also be to use behind the paneling/siding. Claim it's water/mold proof...I think it's stuff they use behind brick/stucco. They also had a pretty good selection of interior paneling that may work for you as well. I got the 4x8 sheet there for mine and it is a pretty good match to the original stuff on my ceilings.

Some pics of mine here:

http://groups.yahoo....838023/pic/list

Gotta luv our NW winters...takes a toll on the rigs! Mine will be kept in the garage for the non-camping seasons from now on.

[Mikesta]

Ahhh, I think I remember seeing this rig posted on Craigslist! Looks like quite the project...but good to see you are bringing it back to life. We just finished rebuilding the upper bunk in my Nova Star (in addition to a bunch of other engine work). Front window had leaked previously and rotted out all the luan on the base. Luckily it's got the molded fiberglass shell, so no structural damage. I had the original front window fiberglassed over completely, so hopefully less prone for leaks now.

Lowe's carries some 1/4 to 1.5" foam/insulation that you may also be to use behind the paneling/siding. Claim it's water/mold proof...I think it's stuff they use behind brick/stucco. They also had a pretty good selection of interior paneling that may work for you as well. I got the 4x8 sheet there for mine and it is a pretty good match to the original stuff on my ceilings.

Some pics of mine here:

http://groups.yahoo....838023/pic/list

Gotta luv our NW winters...takes a toll on the rigs! Mine will be kept in the garage for the non-camping seasons from now on.

Cool, another seattleite... you have a unique looking camper there!

[Mikesta]

Little update, we had family in town... not much time to rebuild, but I'm getting more confident in the design and this time has allowed me to process a tad more.

I hope to get some progress made very soon, but am also looking at possibly running the home on a mixture of solar and wind. So more thought is going into the reconstruction with LED's and other gadgets!

[Gulfstream Greg]

LED is the way to go! I recently found whats called tape strip LED's. Its 60 high powered LED's on a strip with a self adhesive baking. They can be cut into 3 led segments and daisy chained. The whole strip or just 3 can be powered via 12VDC. I daisy chained 12 (4 sections of 3) and put them in one of my upper double cabinets activated by micro switches. Plenty of light. I used the wire found in cat5 cable to connect them together. Any very small gauge wire should be OK as there is nill current. Also did the same for the range hood, used 18 led's there. Eventually I will put them up in the product review section.

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=250631030768&ssPageName=STRK:MEWNX:IT

Bought these also but have not installed any http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=250612093053&ssPageName=STRK:MEWNX:IT

Another source is http://www.superbrightleds.com/cgi-bin/store/index.cgi?action=DispPage&Page2Disp=/led_prods.htm&gclid=CNeBl4P9rqICFQ1biAodFkSXSw

As for reconstruction I have found that if I rush to get something completed I sometimes find that I should have done something a little different after I done what ever Ive done. But then sometimes you will never see what should have been until after what you did.

[Mikesta]

Gosh, time has gotten away from me. I haven't done anything but move this rig around since my last update. Getting ready to sell our house here and messing around with www.sunrader.com... picked up another sunrader too.... so the Winny is back burnered for now. I'd sell it someone on this board for $1500 if someone here needed it, otherwise, I'm not activly going to sell it or fix it for a few months. I'll keep you posted.... life got really busy!

[DanAatTheCape]

Yes, I'v seen that in the layout. I'll likely do this, but in Steel. The home will probably be 2-300lbs heavier.

I would stay aluminum. that unit has very little useful payload - 300 lbs will take a big chunk of it.

I think that unit has an aluminum box frame with fiberglas panels over thin plywood over foam insulation upper, wood lower.