Replacing Leaf Springs...

[bufbooth]

Hello All,

About how hard is it to replace the leaf springs?

Can it be done in a drive-way, or is a lift needed?

Does one basically have to support the coach with jacks, then

lift the axle up until there is no tension on the springs, then

start unbolting the U-bolts to release the springs?

Just trying to determine if this is self doable, or if I need to start

search for a shop.

Thanks,

Dennis...

[turtle]

When I bought the Sunrader last year I put in additional ride springs in the driveway of a friends auto repair business in L.A. The "job" entailed dropping the axle and separating the spring cluster to put in the additional leaf, reassembling the clusters and re-attaching the axle.

It can be done in a driveway with jack stands, floor jacks, and a come-along but it is NOT FUN.

I did not remove the springs to put the leaf in but took them apart while they were still on the vehicle. DON'T DO THIS unless you have a death wish. One of the springs flew apart as I was trying to compress them back together to get the retaining clamps/straps back on (a "C" clamp broke in half so you can imagine the stress everything was under). The leaves of the spring flew all around for about 10 feet. Luckily no one lost a leg or was killed. I should have removed the springs and disassembled/reassembled them using a vice but I could not get the shackle bolts out because the LP tank on the passenger side and the black water tank on the driver's side did not leave enough room for the bolts to be removed without dropping the LP and black water tank. I did not want to put in the extra hours this would have required and I did not have spare bolts to replace ones that I would have had to cut in half as I wanted to leave the next morning. As it was it took about 7 hours to do the 2 additional springs and 4 shocks.

It was not fun and I was whipped by the time I was finished. Suspension work is the "ditch digging" of automotive repair work.

[DanAatTheCape]

I have replaced leaf springs on a ford fairlane - using floor jacks etc. Yes the vehicle has to be supported as does the rear end.

It is a heavy job. My 92 itasca's springs may be sagging a bit (the Ford's were flat). I have seen people put helper springs on the bottom. When I inflate my air bags to 120' then my rear end stands up fine.

I would not dissassemble the springs - I would either add a helper or just get new ones. DO some googling on spring reconditioning if you are so inclined - in the case of my ford I was able to get new springs from JC Whitney for a better price.

If you do not have airbags I would look into airshocks -- most of these campers are overloaded anyway.

[bufbooth]

I will be taking Mrs Clark (my Toyota) into the shop on Wednesday to get the

leaf springs worked on. I found a nice shop called "The Truck Shop" that specializes

on suspenssions for school buses, motorhomes, and heavy trucks.

In addition to any leaf spring fixes/replacement, I am guessing they will probably tell me

it is time to replace the rear shocks especially since they will probably be taking them

off to work on the leaf springs, and they look old. My air bags are about three years old

so I should be good with them.

Any suggessions on what brand / type of rear shocks I should get?

Thanks,

Dennis...

[WME]

As often stated... Bilstein= best shock,,,,Monroe best bang for thr Buck

[turtle]

The Downey ride spring, air bags, polly bushings, and Bilsteins are the end of the rainbow and what I have always done.

This is a do it once and never think about it again fix.

The polly bushings will last longer than the coach (50 years 300k miles minimum).

The air bags will need repairs as the lines and rubber ages but since yours are only 3 years old you have another 10 years before the lines start to leak.

The Downey ride spring is designed by them and manufactured locally. They even powder coat it. It is a NICE product and makes a BIG difference in ride and sway. They spec it at being able to support an additional 500 lbs per side.

The Bilstein shocks are for a life time. They no longer make them for the early Toyota trucks (79-84) but the set I put on my 1981 back 14 years ago were sent off to their racing division where they completely rebuilt the interior and sent them back at NO COST to me. Most companies would just give you the brush off but Bilstein goes the extra mile to keep their customers happy. I still have a set of Bilstein shocks on my 1980 Volvo that were put on when the car was purchased new in 1980. I own 8 vehicles. ALL of them have Bilstein shocks.

If you do not have 24 mm front torsion bars you should consider adding these while your Toyota is in the shop. Stick a caliper micrometer on them and check. You will need to realign the front end after replacing them but you will be glad you did.

[bufbooth]

Hello All,

I was just reading the Firestone website on air coils and it stated that they are

designed to level front/back and side to side. Is the leveling side to side

something new, I thought we needed to keep the same air pressure in each

of the air coils.

I did try inflating one coil more than the other on the set that I have, and did

not notice any improvement on my leaning to the left problem.

Dennis...

[turtle]

If you have the on-board compressor and the dual adjustment controls you can raise/lower each side a few inches from the dash. I just have the 2 air hose connections but I just got a set of bullys with a compressor and storage can so all I need is the ride rite controls and some tubing to hook up my ride rites to the bully compressor/tank.

Your leaning problem is probably a worn spring bushing. Check to see if any of your spring leaves are broken as this would also cause a lean.

[bufbooth]

I inspected the leaf springs pretty closely and could not find any broken ones.

Is the spring bushing the quarter or so sized rubber piece that the leaf springs

attach to?

Also, if it turns out that my leaf springs are just weak, any opinions on adding

a set of Helper Springs instead of replacing the entire set of leaf springs? I was

just reading about Hellwig helper springs that attach to the top part of the leaf

springs and that one does not have to remove the leaf springs in order to install

the helper spring. The model 1560T is made for 1984-1993 Toyota 1 Ton Dually

Pickup & RV Cutaway, and is rated as 1500 lbs helper springs.

www.suspensionconnection.com/cgi-bin/suscon/1560T.html

Thanks,

Dennis...

[turtle]

This is what a full set of spring bushings looks like

http://www.jtoutfitters.com/images/toy520x4n516x20.jpg

I do not have any experience with Hellweig products so can't comment on them.

I have always added ride springs to the spring set. Since the springs are going to have to be off of the truck to replace the bushings it should not be that big of a deal to separate the sets and add an additional leaf to them.

I have always dealt with Downey off road for all of my Toyota truck suspension parts

http://www.downeyoff-road.com/SuspensionCo...lyurethane.html

http://www.downeyoff-road.com/SuspensionCo...ts/1979-95.html

My 1981 has had 4 additional ride springs added to the set give it a total of 9 springs.

http://www.toymike.com/diesel/pics/rearSprings.jpg

I would not advise doing this as even when the motor home is fully loaded the rear suspension is over sprung and the ride is very firm. This was the way it came when I purchased the 1 ton axle and springs from the salvage yard and I left it that way. I cannot get the coach body to move when pushing on the side. I slide before the Toyota starts to sway. I went with off road Bilsteins on the rear to help tame all of this spring.

[bufbooth]

Hello All,

I just got a call from the suspension shop, they stated that I did not have any broken leaf

springs, but they believe that two leaf springs were added in the past to each side and that

the believe that they need to remove one leaf spring from the passenger side to make things

right. Currently the RV is leaning on the drivers side, I was expecting them to state that they

needed to add one leaf to the driver side, but stated that I have penty of suspension support

and they feared that adding one would be an issue (too many supported on one side).

I counted six leaf springs per set, they are guessing that two were added to each side in the past.

Also, it appears that my spring bushings on both sides are bad, they first saw bad brushings

on the drivers side and thought that was the problem, then they saw that the passenger side

was just a bad.

So, they are thinking I need new spring bushings on both sides, and to remove one leaf

from the passenger side to fix my leaning to the left (driver) side.

Does anyone have a concern about the fix they are talking about? Does our motorhomes

(at least V6 models) have only four leaf springs?

Thanks,

Dennis...

[turtle]

the stock Toyota 1 ton cab/chassis came with 5 rear leaf springs from the factory. 3 ride springs and 2 load springs. Ride springs are the arched ones and the load springs are the flat ones

Some motor home builders added additional ride springs. Some added air suspension, Some did nothing.

There is no consistency from year to year from the same manufacturer.

I would not want to second guess someone who is in the business of doing suspension work but I wonder about having mismatched spring sets.

Have you thought about using shackles of different sizes to level the coach? You might want to ask the suspension shop about this option.

Downey makes HD off road shackles in different lengths.

[bufbooth]

Hello,

I received another call from the shop and they stated they need to keep the RV until

Friday, due to having to order new Bushings and Shackles. They are going with OEM

Toyota bushings and shackles.

I did ask the question about having two sets of leaf springs with a different number

of leafs in each. They stated that from the layout of my model (Odyssey Durango - rear

bathroom) that the driver side was carrying a bit more weight than the passenger side

and as a result needed the extra support.

My driver side has a couch, stove, sink, fresh water tank, gray water tank, battery, and

shower.

My passenger side has two barrel chairs, Frig/heater, and a closet.

The black water tank and gas tank are right in the middle.

The shop stated that the current set of leaf springs (6 leafs each) has plenty of support,

that is the rear end rides plenty high, but due to the extra weight on the drivers side,

I end up leaning to the left. They believe the driver side needs one extra leaf of support

in order to level out.

They (and I) played with the air coils, did a 100psi on left and 20psi (min) on the right, and

it almost leveled the rear.

My air coils were also replaced just before I purchased the RV in 2005, maybe the old

set had more lift to level the rear than the new set does. I am pretty sure I had the

lean to the drivers side from day one, just did not notice it.

Will update as I hear more.

Thanks,

Dennis...

[bufbooth]

Hello All,

I heard back from another 1990 Odyssey owner that had the bathroom in the front model,

and he has 5 leaf springs installed, so I am feeling a bit better on the removing of a leaf

solution. If the Toyota parts came in on time today, I should get my RV back on Friday

afternoon.

Dennis...

[futar]

I did the add a spring by relieving tension and sliding in another spring on a previous Toy. I found something easier this time. It is a full length spring that has and indent that allows it to fit over the shackle. You just have to jack the MH enough to get the right arch for installation. It cost $36 for a set and added 2,000#s lift.

[bufbooth]

Hello All,

The Good News:

I got my motorhome back on Friday night, she was nice and level. The stop stated that they

believed that two leafs had been added in the past, one very thick one (like 2 to 2.5 times as

thick as the others), and a regular thickness one. They removed one of the regular

thickness ones from the passenger side, replaced all the bushings (they were worn through

the tops), replaced the shackles, replaced the U-Bolts. She is nice and level now, and still

riding high. I have six leafs on the drivers side, and five leafs on the passager side, and a

set of air coils.

Some News:

The shop had a machine maded by Hunter Engineering called a Brake Force measurement

device that measured how much braking power each wheel had, and also how much

weight was on each wheel. My RV with 3/4 tank of gas, full fresh water tank, and about

1/4 loaded with gear had the following weight:

FL- 1110 lbs FR- 930 lbs RL- 2430 lbs RR- 2140 lbs (front axle at 2040 lbs, rear axle at 4570 lbs)

A total weight of 6610 lbs. The driver side weighted 470 lbs more than the drivers side.

According to their machines specs, my front brakes were less than 2% off, but the rear brakes

were only doing about 10% of what they should be. They tighten up the rear brakes.

The Bad News:

I live six miles from the shop, when I pulled in both rear brakes had white smoke coming

out of them, they were extremely hot. I only hit one red light on the way home and my

average speed was 45 mph. I called the stop this morning (Monday) and the manager

and a mechicanic came out, stated that they were sorry for the problem and took my

RV back to the shop, they stated they would pull the axles, inspect it, and make any

needed fixes. They dropped my RV off around 2pm today and stated they pulled the

axles, replaced the grease seals, repacked the bearings, and backed the rear brakes off.

When they dropped it off, they checked to be sure the rear brakes were not hot.

I took my RV for a test drive tonight, did not notice any rear drag (glided in netural), and

all seemed well when braking at lights, however, I think the brakes might be a hair looser

than when I first dropped it off, so I will jack it up in the next weekend or two and tighten

the brakes myself (tighen until I feel a little resistance). I think the shop cranked the

brakes all the way they could, then either forget to back them off or not back far enough.

Dennis...

[WME]

If your rear brakes arn't doing their thing, adjust the brake proportioning valve on the rear frame. It will make the rear brakes work harder.

The valve was designed to limit the rear brake pressure when the Toy truck was empty, (AKA level). When you added a load the rear would sag and the valve would increase the rear brakes, because with more weight the rear tires could get more traction and wouldn't skid.

As the scales show you have 4000 lb in the rear bed and should be draging the bed and you need max braking on the rear wheels. But the springs and airbags make the Toy level, or in your case, up some..... So the valve thinks your pickup is empty and limits the rear brake pressure so you don't skid.

Some folks raise the adjusting bolt up all the way, some just tie the control arm to the frame so the rear brakes always get MAX pressure, some have even removed the valve.

The spring shop should understand what I'm talking about.

[bufbooth]

Hello WME,

I think the truck stop that I used was 'Training" on my Toyota (regarding the brakes), I think

mine was the first they worked on. I think all they did was expand the mechical adjuster that

is located in each of the brake drum hubs.

Regarding the brake proportioning valve that you spoke of, where abouts is that located?

(forward of the rear axle, behind the rear axle). What does it look like, about how big is it?

Does the V6 (1989 to 1993) have them?

Thanks again,

Dennis...

[turtle]

Here is a screen shot from the service manual

http://www.toymike.com/misc/proportioningValveServMan.gif

[WME]

It should be on the frame just above the axle on the passenger side.

The adjusting bolt is on the drivers side. rear side of the axle

[bufbooth]

Hello All,

You are correct, I do have a brake proportioning valve, (just crawled under the RV with

a flash light) located just above the rear diff. filler hole. I have been under the RV a couple

dozen times and never noticed it, but I was never looking for it. My adjuster bolt is right in

the middle and looks like it has never been adjusted, I can adjust it upwards about an inch.

Any problems with attaching it to the frame, that is any problems with the valve working at

full capacity all the time?

Is it correct to state that the RV companies overlooked the brake proportioning valve?

I have only adjusted my rear brakes with the brake drums off, basically I would expand the

adjuster until I feel resistance on the drum turning, then back it off a hair. Regarding the

adjuster hole on the back of the brake hub, should I be able to turn the adjuster with a

screw driver or do I need a special tool? Will it be easier if I jacked the axle up and

remove the rear wheels, it looks like the wheel rim is in the way.

Thanks to all on this subject, it is a good learning experience for me.

Dennis...

[turtle]

My diesel does not have a proportioning valve (it has been removed)

http://www.toymike.com/diesel/pics/rearAxleBrakeFittings.jpg

I plan on removing the one on my Sunrader also.

This is NOT a recommendation that you should do this, only what I have done.

The proportioning valve was put in to compensate rear braking pressure for changing loads in a pickup bed (from empty to fully loaded).

Diesel Mike

[WME]

I THINK there two adjustments. Raise the arm by making the adjuster longer, that's for sure. MAYBE the valve can be lowered, like slotted holes.

Any way do these and see what you think, if happy try attaching the arm to the frame. If happier leave it there, if unhappy return things to where they were. Its all adjustments at this point, nothing permanent.

FWIW mine is hooked to the frame. Again a statement of fact, not a suggestion.

[nibs]

Damn, now I have proportional valve envy!

[turtle]

You can get a manual adjustable street rod proportioning valve

http://www.wilwood.com/Products/006-Master...01-PV/index.asp

I have one sitting on the shelf waiting to go in the Sunrader

[WME]

Dennis

Any progress on the brakes?

[bufbooth]

Hello WME,

I have not yet made any adjustments to the brake proportioning valve, however, I did

pull the tires off last Tuesday to verify that the suspension shop actually did pull the

axles to check for any damage due to over tightening the brakes.

I did see fresh silacon gasket material on the axles, it appears that they did not have

the paper gaskets or could reuse the old ones. Any issues with having silacon instead

of the paper gaskets? From what I read the only purpose of the paper gasket was to

keep the dust out.

When the suspension shop backed the brakes off, they backed them off more than

I had them at. While I had the tires off, I tighten each side by four clicks, in which

I could barely feel a little drag. I think I probably could go another click or two, but

when I tried to see if I could back them off, I could not get the release arm to

release after about 10 minutes of trying, so I decided to leave the brakes at

four clicks, hopefully the auto adjusters (will backing up) will take up any slack.

I have about an inch of adjustment on the brake proportioning valve, I will try that

first before disconnecting the valve arm and attaching it to the frame.

I will be heading to Southern Illinois to explore a few of the forest parks.

Thanks,

Dennis...

[WME]

Just make a new "silicone gasket" and you should be good to go.

[nibs]

Just before we left for our shake down cruise, I spent a bit of time fighting my rear brakes. I think a mechanic (doing an inspection) tightened one of my brakes to see if it worked or something. The drum was getting hot. Pulled the drum & found all looked good, still got hot. Had a mechanic adjust the rear brakes, now they both getting hot, (too hot to touch) I said to oooo withthem & started trying to back them off, didnt know that you have to hold the locking spring back before you can back off the 'star- wheel'. Once I was told about that, just backed them off a bit at a time untill they ran cool. Adjusted my rear proportioning valve up a bit, just ran 300 miles through the mountains towing our little trailer, Whoopee no problems.

Tony

[bufbooth]

Hello Tony,

Could you describe how you backed the brakes off, I gave up about after 10 minutes,

could not seem to find the locking spring, I knew it was there, just could not seem to

hit it.

I am assuming you had the tires off and was going through the adjusting access hole

on the back side of the brakes (the 1 inch by 3 inch or so hole).

I was able to hit the toothed adjustment wheel with a screwdriver, but could not get

another screwdriver in to push back the locking spring. Were you using flat blade

screwdrivers or some other tool?

I think I need to adjust my brakes by one or two more clicks, but want to be sure

I can back them off.

Thanks,

Dennis...