18' Axles *DO* Fail - Replace Yours ASAP

[linda s]

i think this has been addressed before, but anyone know for sure if the 1989 automatic behind the V6 has a lock up type converter?

YES

Linda S

[Maineah]

I believe all the 6 cyl had a lockup converter the 4's did not have enough power for a lockup converter. But here in lies the problem I'm fairly certain that the trans only has the converter lock up in OD so if it down shifted the first thing to happen was a drop out of the lockup and eventually a down shift to 3rd so climbing a hill the lockup is not engaged or fighting a heavy head wind. The big problem is the trans was not intended to be used in a truck weighting 6000#. Don't get me wrong the lockup is a good feature because it does reduce heat but it's less then perfect in the Toy home.

[Maineah]

Adding a lockup to a non lockup is all but impossible the clutch is in the converter and the valving and fluid passage ways are part of the trans design.

[zero]

I believe all the 6 cyl had a lockup converter the 4's did not have enough power for a lockup converter. But here in lies the problem I'm fairly certain that the trans only has the converter lock up in OD

The A340E has lockup in 2nd, 3rd and 4th (OD) when it's working correctly. Controlled by the ECM, temperature, speed, throttle position, etc.

[5Toyota]

as far as i know all the six cyl trans do use the lockup torque convertor. the four cyl use a nonlocking type yours should be the A 340E type locking

[90toydolphin]

thanks for the info on the lock up converter. i will continue to use the OD on flat ground without high winds. thanks

[waiter]

Adding a lockup to a non lockup is all but impossible the clutch is in the converter and the valving and fluid passage ways are part of the trans design

DARN :-(

[Maineah]

The A340E has lockup in 2nd, 3rd and 4th (OD) when it's working correctly. Controlled by the ECM, temperature, speed, throttle position, etc.

Depending on year, ECM and application. That trans is a work in progress as it is still being used. When I left my job as a service manager of a transmission shop in 92 I did not feel compelled to keep up with the latest advancements and still don't.

[zero]

Depending on year, ECM and application. That trans is a work in progress as it is still being used. When I left my job as a service manager of a transmission shop in 92 I did not feel compelled to keep up with the latest advancements and still don't.

I suspect just about all automatic transmissions are works in progress. I find the most difficult part of rebuilding a trans is getting up to date with all the "improvements." Some OEM and some from the aftermarket community The lockup I mentioned for 2, 3, and 4 was OEM for Toyota in 1993. I have no idea what has been done since. I'd only have to find out if I was rebuilding one.

[DCGonzo1]

I happen to have the "death axle" now n definitely glad the OP safely handled the failure, with all the talk about bearings and single wheel options I think theres got to be an argument now for upgrading the stock wheel setup altogether. Now I understand the rest of this post is entirely spiculation ( La raza jue!), but say for instance a staggered wheel setup akin to a mild 16x8 with perhaps a 215 65-75r16 all terrain truck tire in front ( upgraded front torsion of course) and a deep dishish 60-40 rear offset 16x10 with matching 285 60-65r16 all terrains in back on a flipped axle (underleaf). Not to mention fresh bearings all around and upgraded shocks. The stock amount of rubber these toys put on the road is so minimal I'm now just as scared to take a wet turn as lose a bearing. I'd like to hear more of this 4x4 front bearing mod and input from the lucky 4x4 owners who've discarded their POS 14x5s. Maybe I watch too much Top Gear, or maybe I never left anything "stock", ever... Eventually I plan to 4x4 convert mine, 6" inch lift, AT truck tires and my sportbike sittin sideways on back. I'll take photos and post in Projects for step by step. My odo says 84k and aint fall apart yet, I aim to keep it that way til a FF shows up. As for now I got shox in boxes n work to do... Hit me up, D.

[snail powered]

I happen to have the "death axle" now n definitely glad the OP safely handled the failure, with all the talk about bearings and single wheel options I think theres got to be an argument now for upgrading the stock wheel setup altogether. Now I understand the rest of this post is entirely spiculation ( La raza jue!), but say for instance a staggered wheel setup akin to a mild 16x8 with perhaps a 215 65-75r16 all terrain truck tire in front ( upgraded front torsion of course) and a deep dishish 60-40 rear offset 16x10 with matching 285 60-65r16 all terrains in back on a flipped axle (underleaf). Not to mention fresh bearings all around and upgraded shocks. The stock amount of rubber these toys put on the road is so minimal I'm now just as scared to take a wet turn as lose a bearing. I'd like to hear more of this 4x4 front bearing mod and input from the lucky 4x4 owners who've discarded their POS 14x5s. Maybe I watch too much Top Gear, or maybe I never left anything "stock", ever... Eventually I plan to 4x4 convert mine, 6" inch lift, AT truck tires and my sportbike sittin sideways on back. I'll take photos and post in Projects for step by step. My odo says 84k and aint fall apart yet, I aim to keep it that way til a FF shows up. As for now I got shox in boxes n work to do... Hit me up, D.

I have "mods" by previous owners of old vechicles I bought fail me and cause failures of other components. Enough so that I am wary of buying a rig with such things on it. As I can't replace an axle/differential myself I will put the word out with a few reputable shops around town that I am looking to upgrade to a full floating. Eventually something suitable might turn up locally. But of course it will have to coordinate with having money in the bank too. Old motorhomes are much like old boats, big holes to pour money into. How fast you need to trickle in the money being the real trick of owning one. A lot of talk about how reliable the Toyhomes are and that is true to an extent but not the whole truth.

[linda s]

This place specializes in mini trucks. They might have one and if not you can get put on a list and they will notify you when one comes in. At least they used to do that. Talking about full floaters here.

http://www.yellowpages.com/san-diego-ca/mip/mini-truck-auto-wrecking-3282867?lid=3282867

Another option is to just get an axle from a v6 toyota truck. It is stronger than the older ones and if you run it on single wheels should hold up pretty well. Also if your running singlw wheels your choice of wheels is mucn greater and you can run the tires you want as long as they are strong enough to carry the load. What kind of toyota motorhome are we talking about here. How big. Have you ever had it weighed. Finding out the true weight is always a good thing to do. Public scales are available everywhere

Linda S

[linda s]

I have "mods" by previous owners of old vechicles I bought fail me and cause failures of other components. Enough so that I am wary of buying a rig with such things on it. As I can't replace an axle/differential myself I will put the word out with a few reputable shops around town that I am looking to upgrade to a full floating. Eventually something suitable might turn up locally. But of course it will have to coordinate with having money in the bank too. Old motorhomes are much like old boats, big holes to pour money into. How fast you need to trickle in the money being the real trick of owning one. A lot of talk about how reliable the Toyhomes are and that is true to an extent but not the whole truth.

Here are a couple of places near you Karen that claim to have Nissan dually axles

http://www.alslynnwoodtruckparts.com/

http://www.simpsonsusedparts.com/

From Car-part and many of these listings are already gone but it can't hurt to call.

Linda S

[zero]

Another option is to just get an axle from a v6 toyota truck. It is stronger than the older ones and if you run it on single wheels should hold up pretty well.

Linda S

How do you figure a rear axle (semi-floater) from a V6 Tacoma (for example) is any stronger then a 70s-80s Toyota with a 2.2 or 2.4 engine? They all have 1.5" diameter axles. The center section on the V6 rear-axle is a little beefier, but the weight carrying part is no different as far as I can tell. Seems it's the load-bearing part of the axle that is crucial in a Toyota RV. I don't see any shortage of dually rear axles for them and don't perceive the problem. I've come across many in my area and many wound up at the scrap-yard before I got my hands on them. They are not exactly "hot items" to anyone except the esoteric market of Toyota RV owners. I guess that's why so many get scrapped.

If someone had some issue with using a Toyota FF assembly, it's not that hard to narrow a Dana 60 or 70 and use it with 15" or 16" tires, if wanted. I prefer the OEM Toyota setup since it's a bolt-in swap and gives the ability to make the rear wheels match the front.

[snail powered]

Here are a couple of places near you Karen that claim to have Nissan dually axles

http://www.alslynnwoodtruckparts.com/

http://www.simpsonsusedparts.com/

From Car-part and many of these listings are already gone but it can't hurt to call.

Linda S

Thanks Linda, I will keep it in mind. Won't have the money for anything like that until after the next Christmas shopping season. I make a product I sell that is seasonal so once a year my bank account might have that kind of extra funds to do something like an axle change out, if it is a good year

[linda s]

Eric's differential page. No known axle failures on v6 Odyssey 4x4's which came with single wheels

'86-95 4cyl Turbo and V6* trucks and 4runners, and ALL '96+ 4Runners use the Toyota 8" 4-pinion differential in the rear. This diff is known as the "V6/Turbo diff."

- Stronger housing than the 4cyl diff

- Larger carrier bearings than the 4cyl diff

- 30 spline axles

- 27 spline pinion (pre-'96)

- Ten 10mm ring gear bolts

- 8mm axle housing studs with 12mm nuts

- 4-pinion carrier (case)

- 4cyl 8" diff carriers (cases) do not fit without custom carrier bearing adapters ($), try Inchworm Gear

- A few pre-'96 V6 trucks and 4runners have been found to have come with the 4cyl style diff from the factory. Nobody knows why.

* LPH/SPH gear info: http://www.pirate4x4.com/forum/showpost.php?p=1478223&postcount=73

Linda S

[zero]

I'm not aware of any reliable reporting mechanism where we'd hear about any failures that HAVE occurred with V6 rear axles in RVs. Toyota RVs are not exactly "current news" to most people. A heat-treated axle with a 1.5" to 1.6" outer diameter is not any different between an old Toyota four-cylinder or a newer one with a V-6. If someone wants more load-carry capacity/less axle breakage, they need a bigger OD axle or . . . or a rear-axle assembly that does not put weight on the axle (full floater). A wider bearing can help a little but not much. The specs you posted refer to a center-section that can handle more torque and horsepower. They have nothing to do with carrying more weight unless there is some "magic" involved I'm not privy too.

[Derek up North]

No known axle failures on v6 Odyssey 4x4's which came with single wheels

But also no know owners of 4x4 Odysseys amongst the Members of this Forum (or the Yahoo Group). So how would we hear?

EDIT. I forgot about the one Tika owned. Her description of the rear axle:-

"In answer to your question, it has the much larger diameter rear axle that came

standard with the 4x4 Toyota chassis of the 1990's, plus larger 15" wheels. The

larger wheels mean it can take larger tires with the load capacity to carry the

weight of the vehicle on just 4 tires without needing any version of duals in

the rear. Only 2 tires in the rear is better for off-road use, such as tracking

in rutted roads."

I assume she's managed to flip it by now. It was for sale 18 months ago.

[linda s]

Well that's the one Timmy bought and even though everything else broke on it the axle is fine last I heard. he even loaded it with at least an extra 2000lbs taking a half dozen friends and their kayaks and gear for miles to run a river. Still didn't break. The roof did cave in though

Linda S

There are numerous messages on the toyota-camper site about Odyssey 4x4's and their owners. No reports of bad axles

[Derek up North]

I've got to wonder why it is that the Odyssey 4x4 axle causes no problems yet Sunrader 4x4 owners still seem to be searching for a solution for their axle problem.

[zero]

Chances are - if someone had a 4WD Odysessy and broke an axle - it would only be known to very few people. What normal person is going to feel it necessary to find a way to report it to the world at large? Many of us only know about the many axle failures in Toyota RVs because of official complaints to RV makers and outside-party oversight - and that was over 20 years ago?

A 1.5" axle bearing weight is what it is - regardless if in a four cylinder truck, a V6 turbo truck, a 4WD ,etc. Toyota trucks along with Ford Rangers and F150s, Chevy S10s, Astros and 1500s, Dodge Dakotas, etc. all have similar axle ODs and max weight load ratings. I've yet to hear a logical hypothesis that explains how a 1.5" axle in a V6 4WD will somehow bear more weight then when in a four-cylinder 2WD. The beefier rear-axle assemblies have heavier center-sections to handle more engine torque and horsepower. Not really something that's a big issue in Toyota RVs unless someone wants to do a repower.

[zero]

Well that's the one Timmy bought and even though everything else broke on it the axle is fine last I heard. he even loaded it with at least an extra 2000lbs taking a half dozen friends and their kayaks and gear for miles to run a river. Still didn't break. The roof did cave in though

Linda S

There are numerous messages on the toyota-camper site about Odyssey 4x4's and their owners. No reports of bad axles

I've seen many small trucks grossly overloaded and it proves nothing relevant to this subject. Rear axles tend to carry conservative weight ratings with longevity in mind. Stay within the weight rating and expect the rear axle to last a long time if kept lubed. Overload it a lot and the life is shortened. Grossly overload it and a sudden failure may occur. Same goes for tires. I've seen many tires rated at 2000 lbs. with 4000 lbs. on them and survive it. Not something I'd want to trust very long though. I've seen many a Ford Ranger and a Chevy LUV with over a ton of weight on the back and survive short hauls The long-term effects can only be guessed at. A 1.5" axle is a 1.5" axle. If someone was worried about axle failure in an RV because of a weight-bearing 1.5" axle - I cannot see any logic in replacing it with another weight-bearing 1.5" axle.

[linda s]

GVWR of the 1 ton v6 truck with single wheels is 5600lbs. 100lbs more than all the 4 bangers with the full float dullies. I rest my case

Linda S

[Derek up North]

I'm not quite sure what a "1-Ton V6 SRW" is and please explain the case you're resting.

GVWR of 1990 4x4 5350lb

GVWR of 1987 22R-E Dolphin 5950lb

GVWR of 1990 V6 Dolphin 6000lb

[linda s]

I'm not quite sure what a "1-Ton V6 SRW" is and please explain the case you're resting.

GVWR of 1990 4x4 5350lb

GVWR of 1987 22R-E Dolphin 5950lb

GVWR of 1990 V6 Dolphin 6000lb

From the toyota brochure for 1990. Listed is a 1 ton truck with single rear wheels and a v6 engine. Gross vehicle weight limit on the truck is 5600 pounds. A 1988 truck with dual rear wheels and the 4 cylinder engine has a gross vehicle weight of 5500 pounds also from the toyota brochure for that year. Is that clear enough.

Linda S

[Derek up North]

Dolphin very clearly has the GVWR for the 1988 Motorhome listed at 5950. But we weren't discussing the 1-Ton SRW V6 (until now). Does the brochure also list the towing capacity and GCWR?

[linda s]

Dolphin very clearly has the GVWR for the 1988 Motorhome listed at 5950. But we weren't discussing the 1-Ton SRW V6 (until now). Does the brochure also list the towing capacity and GCWR?

Towing capacity is 5000lbs and GCWR is 8,600 lbs. There is of course no way of knowing what Dolphin did to increase the GVWR beyond Toyota's recommended weight. There must be some documents somewhere because I think it would have to be approved somehow.

Linda S

[zero]

GVWR of the 1 ton v6 truck with single wheels is 5600lbs. 100lbs more than all the 4 bangers with the full float dullies. I rest my case

Linda S

You "rest your case" with little relevant or specific data?? That seems a little silly. The commonly used title of "1 ton" has no specific meaning. The GVWR also has no specific meaning as it applied to the rear axle assembly. What matters more is the GAWR (gross axle weight rating) but even that is NOT a reference to just the axle assembly. GAWR takes into acount the axle, springs, frame, brakes, tires and type of use (consumer or HD). HD vehicles like box trucks often have more conservative ratings since it is assumed they will be worked hard most of their lives.

What DOES count is . . . the heavier Toyota RVs with load-bearing 1.56" axles had catastrohpic/sudden failure. Enough so that a recall was done. To claim that some other 1.56" load-bearing axle is much better for the job is a little silly. Citing GVWR ratings does not tell us much about the failiure point of any axle assembly. It tells us the max rating a vehicle can carry and survive long-term use. GVWR goes by frame, brakes, springs, tires, handling characterisitcs,etc.

Some Tundras with the same 1.56" size axles as the little "1/2 ton" Toyotas have GAWRs of 4150 lbs. and Toyota have "stress" tested them to 5,500 lbs.

A 6000 lb. motorhome is likely to have 3000 lbs. on each axle when on flat ground (more or less) and substanitally more on the rear when climbing a steep hill.

A "1/2 ton axle" has as conservative rating around 3500-3800 lbs. and is known to endure over 5000 lbs. for part-time use. When it comes to Toyota RVs - as most already now - some weighing over 6000 lbs. with "1/2 ton" axles and "fake" duals have survived for 30 years without failure -and - some others have not. Obviously they are maxed out and not a good setup. Any other same-size load-bearing axle will also be maxed out.

Linda - you've previously made stated that I am a person who "refuses to be wrong." Maybe now -you'll blow off my comments on that same claim.

I disgree (of course and fitting your claim). I see no logic in any of this. If you are referrring to a axle with a larger OD that can bear more weight OR a rear axle assembly that puts NO weight on the drive axles - then it makes sense.

[Totem]

"A 6000 lb. motorhome is likely to have 3000 lbs. on each axle when on flat ground (more or less) "...

huh?

is this a typo?

please tell me you have weighed a rig before.....

not even close.

rear will bear MUCH more weight than front...

[zero]

"A 6000 lb. motorhome is likely to have 3000 lbs. on each axle when on flat ground (more or less) "...

huh?

is this a typo?

please tell me you have weighed a rig before.....

not even close.

rear will bear MUCH more weight than front...

I said "more or less" and used the generic title of "motorhome." Not just Toyota. Some RVs are close to 50/50 and some are far from it. My 6600 lb. diesel Blazer RV when on the scale showed 2900 lbs. in front and 3700 lbs. in the rear. Toyota RVs typically have a long frame extenson that goes well beyond the rear and puts even more load on the back (as compared to the front). My 1978 Toyota Chinook when loaded showed 1700 lbs. in front and 2400 lbs. in back.

So no, not a "typo." Just wasn't my focus or the point I'm trying to make.

My point is . . . 1.56" weight-bearing axles have been known to break in Toyota RVs. I can't say I've seen any scientific data the proves exactly why. It could be over-weight or it could be shock from over-torque. Also the theory of "fake-duallies" putting uneven stress on the axles. I have not seen even oen study that follows the life and maintenance of any specific Toyota RV and deduces precisely what caused the failure. I suspect some axle failures in Toyota RVs have different causes. One person might have popped the clutch while stuck in a rut and snapped an axle from torque. Another might have hit a pot-hole and momentarily severely overloaded one side from momemtum. Some others may have already had bad bearings that helped the axle to fail. Overall though - there is little doubt that the 1.56" load-carrying axles are not adequate for a vehicle weighing 5500-7000 lbs. all the time.

When a vehicle is engineered and sold to the public, abuse is assumed and "built in" to the design. In the case of Toyota RVs, the built-in allowance for abuse is pretty much gone since they are so heavily loaded, all the time. When commercial vehicles are sold - it is assumed they are worked to the max most of the time and ratings have different meaning then when given for consumer vehicles. Often the same engine or axle in a commerical vehicle will be rated less horsepower and have a lesser weight rating then when in a consumer rig that is usually used more lightly. Thus the reason for "B" rating heavy duty engines (projected life under full-time heavy use).

[linda s]

You do realize that the axles didn't snap all by themselves. The recall clearly states that the stress put on the bearings by the fake duallys caused bearing failure and complete bearing failure caused the axle to snap. I have never recommend that anyone install fake duallys on their motorhome. Do you happen to know what the GAWR for the full floater is. I couldn't find it anywhere.

Linda S

[WME]

I remember seeing in an owners manual that one should replace the outer wheel bearings and inspect the axle every 30,000 mi.

So if my rememberer is any good, the mfgs new that there was a design problem with the fake duallys and used this statment as CYA.

[zero]

You do realize that the axles didn't snap all by themselves. The recall clearly states that the stress put on the bearings by the fake duallys caused bearing failure and complete bearing failure caused the axle to snap. I have never recommend that anyone install fake duallys on their motorhome. Do you happen to know what the GAWR for the full floater is. I couldn't find it anywhere.

Linda S

I regard the failed-axle situation with Toyota RVs not much different then the the Ford-Explorer-Firestone rollover and tire-failure fiasco. Many failures differed and some had causes never 100% attributed to any one cause. The main summation of the investation was - there was not enough "lee-way" or "extra margin of safety" with those tires on Ford Explorers. That lack of "margin of safety" included people driving way too fast with tires that were underinflated. Auto makers and tire makers are supposed to allow for abuse, overloading, etc. and produce vehicles that endure it (to a degree).

With the Toyotas - it's obvious that a weight-bearing axle with a diameter only found in 1/2 ton trucks or less (including Ford, Dodge, and GM) . . . is not adequate for general use in a 5000-6000 lb. RV. That's not to say that someone who is very careful with maintenance, loading, driving habits etc. might have one and never have a failure.

I have no info on specifics on a Toyota FF rear axle. I will assume since the Toyota FF axles have weight-bearing stubs and bearings that are 80% the size of a US Dana 60, and a Dana 60 is rated for 6500 lbs., then then the Toyota FF is rated around 5200 lbs.

[linda s]

I remember seeing in an owners manual that one should replace the outer wheel bearings and inspect the axle every 30,000 mi.

So if my rememberer is any good, the mfgs new that there was a design problem with the fake duallys and used this statment as CYA.

Well the fake dually was not a toyota item. They were all installed by the rv manufacturers and the page in the axle facts is from National RV the maker of the Dolphin. It amounts to them admintting they were at fault. Not CYA by any means

Linda S

[zero]

In regard to specs. Winnebago with their Warrior gave a GAWR for the rear at 3,750 lbs and front GAWR at 2,050 lbs.. My 1987 dually Toyota box truck also has a GAWR for the rear at 3,750 lbs.

Again though - GAWR ratings are not just for the max weight the axle itself can sustain. It also factors in tires, springs, brakes, etc.