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My "new" RV 1984 18' Sunrader/ Engine swap poll


fzj80joe

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3 minutes ago, Maineah said:

Trust me they are not cracks. Some FR's had single roller 22R chains but I don't remember any others. Ok fuel injected engines could compensate for altitude but a carb can not, something to think about.  1994 was a 22RE or a 3.4 V6 and I believe there were some 2.7's.

Good perhaps I can use the 22R engine in the little pickup after I steal it's motor for the camper!

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One of these were my trail runners for many years in many countries...Muddy rice paddies and those skinny FOD tire were not a good combo. The last year I was in the "business" we got Hummers. They had on the roll deflate/inflate functions and were totally a whole new game, but too wide for rice paddy dikes.

MRC108-08.jpg

 

 

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25 minutes ago, WME said:

One of these were my trail runners for many years in many countries...Muddy rice paddies and those skinny FOD tire were not a good combo. The last year I was in the "business" we got Hummers. They had on the roll deflate/inflate functions and were totally a whole new game, but too wide for rice paddy dikes.

MRC108-08.jpg

 

With the right tires I bet those little jeeps would be great. My "business" was fixing broken birds so I didn't get to drive any fun vehicles. Just towing aircraft around the flight line. 

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Good morning everyone, 

Linda, Thank you for providing the contact info. I just called a few places about wheels. Custom and Commercial wheels said they can make 15" duallies with 6x7.25 lug pattern for $185 a pop. He also had and adaptor in his shop that would convert the factory toyota 6 lug from 6X5.5 to 6x7.25 allowing me to carry one dually tire as a spare. The adapter for a pair was $365. He estimated a couple hundred dollars for shipping up to Oregon.  For 5 wheels ($185 each ), the adaptor ($365 pair) and shipping ($200) the total would be $1,490. If you we're just driving on the streets and only carried a spare for the front that would cut out the cost for 1 wheel and the adaptor,  but that isn't my intention. I think this is a good way to go for someone who likes the look of factory dually (it does look cool) and wants to run smaller tires maybe something in the 27" department. 

 

Next I'm going to cost out Stockton wheels to see what a set of 15" or 16" 6x7.25 that are 8-9" wide will run me. Then I guess I could get that adaptor from custom wheels and perhaps use just one spare but order 3 wheels instead of 5. And It gives me the ability to run a larger single tire for off-road

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I found post on a different forum about the Stockton wheels being in the ballpark of $250 a piece. Plus shipping and for an adaptor I'm not sure if that would be more cost effective then selling my Toy 1 ton with 5 wheels and tires and buying a chevy 14 bolt and installing one of these conversion kits on it. https://www.sneveysoffroad.com/gm_14_bolt_ff_6_lug_conversion_kit

Then I would have a extremely strong rear axle that has disk brakes and a matching lug pattern to the front end. An old 14 bolt from the junk yard should only be about $200 and because I'm doing the frame swap I was already go to do a bunch of work such as swapping the springs over the axle and fabricating a sway bar... 

 

hmmmmm

 

unnamed.jpg

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Sounds like you have done this sort of thing before but for a newbie contemplating something like this remember this. Running a single tire on a full floater The rim offset must be correct for the load to be centered between the bearings on each side. The same thing for the front wheels, center the load. The fronts may require an adapter for a single spare to fit everywhere.

The Toyota factory 1 ton setup was dually on the rear axle to center the load and an adapter about 5" wide to center the load with a dually rim, on the front end, in a single rim function.

The GM rear axle sounds good, can you run 8 bolt rims in the back with a 6 to 8 bolt adapter in the front?? Using stock parts is way cheaper than custom stuff. Disc brakes are way over rated for low-speed use on the rear axle

 

 

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2 hours ago, fzj80joe said:

I found post on a different forum about the Stockton wheels being in the ballpark of $250 a piece. Plus shipping and for an adaptor I'm not sure if that would be more cost effective then selling my Toy 1 ton with 5 wheels and tires and buying a chevy 14 bolt and installing one of these conversion kits on it. https://www.sneveysoffroad.com/gm_14_bolt_ff_6_lug_conversion_kit

Then I would have a extremely strong rear axle that has disk brakes and a matching lug pattern to the front end. An old 14 bolt from the junk yard should only be about $200 and because I'm doing the frame swap I was already go to do a bunch of work such as swapping the springs over the axle and fabricating a sway bar... 

 

hmmmmm

 

unnamed.jpg

Keep in mind that your rig has drum brakes in the rear. If you switch to disc brakes, you will have to fabricate a brake proportioning valve that allows you to brake evenly.

Also, your 14 bolt uses a spicer 44 u-joint. I was unable to find a driveshaft adapter for this swap. Plan on fabricating a new rear driveshaft. The 14 bolt is super strong. Good luck. 

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6 minutes ago, fred heath said:

Keep in mind that your rig has drum brakes in the rear. If you switch to disc brakes, you will have to fabricate a brake proportioning valve that allows you to brake evenly.

Also, your 14 bolt uses a spicer 44 u-joint. I was unable to find a driveshaft adapter for this swap. Plan on fabricating a new rear driveshaft. The 14 bolt is super strong. Good luck. 

Good to know! I figured I would have to have a custom driveshaft made because I'm doing a 4x4 swap and have heard that a single piece driveshaft is better then the toyota hanger bearing set up. also I don't know that I have the right combinations of driveshafts laying around

 

It looks like this might be a little more expensive than I can fund to do everything. I really need to sell that Land Cruiser....

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22 hours ago, WME said:

Sounds like you have done this sort of thing before but for a newbie contemplating something like this remember this. Running a single tire on a full floater The rim offset must be correct for the load to be centered between the bearings on each side. The same thing for the front wheels, center the load. The fronts may require an adapter for a single spare to fit everywhere.

The Toyota factory 1 ton setup was dually on the rear axle to center the load and an adapter about 5" wide to center the load with a dually rim, on the front end, in a single rim function.

The GM rear axle sounds good, can you run 8 bolt rims in the back with a 6 to 8 bolt adapter in the front?? Using stock parts is way cheaper than custom stuff. Disc brakes are way over rated for low-speed use on the rear axle

I haven't really done anything this extensive, I rebuild the set of axles on my land cruiser on the bench and they turned out pretty good. And I've mostly had old cars my whole life that need some work from time to time. Basically I will take any insight I can get. I really appreciate all the ideas on forums and tossing ideas around!

 

I agree I probably don't need disk brakes. I found a different conversion kit that replaces the 14 bolt hub making it a 6 lug and only works on older 14 bolts so If I go that bought I will probably end up with drum brakes. 

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20 hours ago, fzj80joe said:

Good to know! I figured I would have to have a custom driveshaft made because I'm doing a 4x4 swap and have heard that a single piece driveshaft is better then the toyota hanger bearing set up. also I don't know that I have the right combinations of driveshafts laying around

 

It looks like this might be a little more expensive than I can fund to do everything. I really need to sell that Land Cruiser....

Look like someone has already figured out the driveshaft issue. https://www.wfoconcepts.com/Products/ViewProduct.aspx?ID=3210,3311,4148

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20 hours ago, Derek up North said:

Maybe keep the Land Cruiser and dump the Hilux.

 

I've considered this! The LC only has 140,000 miles. 4.5L fuel injected engine, Full floating 1-ton axles front and rear, Disk brakes all around. Front, Rear, and Center Diff lockers. I had planned on selling the cruiser before I even bought the Sunrader. Because as nice as the cruiser is we typically take the 4runner which is less capable off road but on road it's not a comparison. The Cruiser gets 10-13mpg struggles through the pass and you are a little more active on the steering wheel at times. 4 runner gets 17mpg cruises effortlessly through the mountains with 2 fingers on the steering wheel. 

I'm concerned that It might tank the value of both vehicles. I think after Im done with the Sunrader 4x4 conversion that If we don't like it or need to sell it for a different adventure in 5 years that I should easily re-coup my time and money put into it. a 4x4 sunrader with solid axle, 22RE single wheel conversion.Solar and simplified amenities for back country should catch some attention should/when we decide to sell it.  And old Luxury SUV's seem to be going up in value as the economy is strong and gas remains less than $3 a gallon so the price of the 80 is pretty good right now. I routinely see 80's with more miles than mine selling for $10-$12k. And I think 4x4 Sunraders with a nice update fetch even more than that. But If I combine the 2 I have no idea what the value would be. If push comes to shove and I need to sell some toys, (it's happened in the past) I like knowing a ballpark estimate of what I will get for them .

 

The easiest way would definitely be to just move the rear axle back a few inches on the cruiser so it clears the camper door and fits in the wheel well and call it a day!

 

 

cruiser sunset.JPG

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This was my first true travel rig, I had been backpacking around Europe and SE Asia for a couple months then came back to the US and realized hoofing it around the US isn't the same. I shortened a harbor freight trailer frame and built the plywood box It's not an original design and received inspiration from other wood box's with wheels and roof top tents.  Traveled around the country for a few months and could cover ground quick with that V6 6-speed accord getting 27mpg. But I couldn't get to a lot of hiking trail heads and that really bothered me. I probably spent about $600-$700 in materials building that trailer and sold it for $650. The roof top tent was $1,000 and I traded it earlier this year for 3 months of free rent. My old roommates now have it on their F-150. Anyway, I was in New Mexico looking for a Tacoma but couldn't find one without 250,000 plus and thats when the land cruiser came into my life exactly 4 years ago. 

Brian Head Utah.jpg

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On 12/21/2018 at 11:38 AM, fzj80joe said:

Look like someone has already figured out the driveshaft issue. https://www.wfoconcepts.com/Products/ViewProduct.aspx?ID=3210,3311,4148

Add $100.00 to the $209.00 adapter and get a new driveshaft. New shaft will be much more HD. Especially if you’re doing a 4WD conversation. 

96E268EB-EAD5-40A1-A69C-DBDBCCF55B2A.jpeg

98EFF0F9-8670-46DC-AEAD-C9F4D113C9FE.jpeg

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15 minutes ago, fred heath said:

Add $100.00 to the $209.00 adapter and get a new driveshaft. New shaft will be much more HD. Especially if you’re doing a 4WD conversation. 

NICE! Is having a driveshaft built usually around $300? Since I'm doing a 4x4 conversion and will obviously have at least 1 transfer case behind the transmission. I figured I would need a new driveshaft unless I got lucky and the driveshaft assortment I have between my 3 Toyota  trucks works out. But I like the idea of just having a driveshaft built probably using a GM shaft. And possibly going to a 1 piece assembly so no worries about a hanger bearing. Of course that limits your ground clearance. 

Yesterday when I was voicing out the options to Anna on how to get convert from tiny dually to a single wheel she didn't seem that enthusiastic. She said road manners should be the #1 priority for "Sunnny" I found a response from Mac and Owen  the bound for nowhere couple that stated when they went from a dually to the full floating conversion with single wheels their Sunrader Amelia felt extremely unstable. They tested it while driving on some back roads in Georgia. And that's the reason why they sold Amelia. Unfortunately they thought they could replace their non full floating axles with a factory Toyota 6 lug axle like the one I have but they couldn't find one. And now I might have one for sale. Theres another one on Craigslist in Bend but I think the selling is asking $850 for it. That's what I hope to have into a new axle with a standard 6x5.5 pattern...

I found a 4x4 Sunrader on Instagram named Atlas. Who sports a set of newer (2015) F-350 Dually wheels  through the use of an adapter. They're 17" wheels running 245/75R17 tires or 31x9.5 which I think Is a really decent size. The owner also did a bunch of suspension upgrades. Im curious how it handles. It's about 2 feet wider than Amelia on the back. after Amelia was converted to single wheels. Factory Ford aluminum take offs can be found for $1000 with okay tires and it's about $400 for the adaptors so for under $1,500 all new wheels and tires that are 17" rims. I can see why he made the choice and while I don't think it would be the best for offloading in the snow I think it's a fantastic way to get a slightly larger tire under a Sunrader with goofy mix matched axles and lug patterns without having to break out the torch and welder to replace the rear axle. 

I think Atlas is a little to wide, I like the idea of getting a 1 ton axle that's possibly a little wider than the Toyota axle. Then running a nice wide 12.5" tire. Maybe so the tires fill out the wells all the way but not as wide as Atlas. I think Amelia with singles in the rear the tires were only 9.5" wide and looked to be a couple inches inside the wheel well. Perhaps the wheels could have used a different backspace? 

 

https://www.instagram.com/atlas_explored/

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13 minutes ago, fzj80joe said:

NICE! Is having a driveshaft built usually around $300? Since I'm doing a 4x4 conversion and will obviously have at least 1 transfer case behind the transmission. I figured I would need a new driveshaft unless I got lucky and the driveshaft assortment I have between my 3 Toyota  trucks works out. But I like the idea of just having a driveshaft built probably using a GM shaft. And possibly going to a 1 piece assembly so no worries about a hanger bearing. Of course that limits your ground clearance. 

Yesterday when I was voicing out the options to Anna on how to get convert from tiny dually to a single wheel she didn't seem that enthusiastic. She said road manners should be the #1 priority for "Sunnny" I found a response from Mac and Owen  the bound for nowhere couple that stated when they went from a dually to the full floating conversion with single wheels their Sunrader Amelia felt extremely unstable. They tested it while driving on some back roads in Georgia. And that's the reason why they sold Amelia. Unfortunately they thought they could replace their non full floating axles with a factory Toyota 6 lug axle like the one I have but they couldn't find one. And now I might have one for sale. Theres another one on Craigslist in Bend but I think the selling is asking $850 for it. That's what I hope to have into a new axle with a standard 6x5.5 pattern...

I found a 4x4 Sunrader on Instagram named Atlas. Who sports a set of newer (2015) F-350 Dually wheels  through the use of an adapter. They're 17" wheels running 245/75R17 tires or 31x9.5 which I think Is a really decent size. The owner also did a bunch of suspension upgrades. Im curious how it handles. It's about 2 feet wider than Amelia on the back. after Amelia was converted to single wheels. Factory Ford aluminum take offs can be found for $1000 with okay tires and it's about $400 for the adaptors so for under $1,500 all new wheels and tires that are 17" rims. I can see why he made the choice and while I don't think it would be the best for offloading in the snow I think it's a fantastic way to get a slightly larger tire under a Sunrader with goofy mix matched axles and lug patterns without having to break out the torch and welder to replace the rear axle. 

I think Atlas is a little to wide, I like the idea of getting a 1 ton axle that's possibly a little wider than the Toyota axle. Then running a nice wide 12.5" tire. Maybe so the tires fill out the wells all the way but not as wide as Atlas. I think Amelia with singles in the rear the tires were only 9.5" wide and looked to be a couple inches inside the wheel well. Perhaps the wheels could have used a different backspace? 

 

https://www.instagram.com/atlas_explored/

That’s what it cost me. My single wheels have the same track width as the duels. I’ve had no problems with stability. If you go with the early 14 bolt axle, the drums are small enough to accommodate 15” wheels. Later axles you’ll need 16” wheels. 

Measure your wheel wells to be sure larger wheel/ tire combos will fit. Also, any larger circumference from factory diameter will affect on your speedometer accuracy.

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17 hours ago, fred heath said:

That’s what it cost me. My single wheels have the same track width as the duels. I’ve had no problems with stability. If you go with the early 14 bolt axle, the drums are small enough to accommodate 15” wheels. Later axles you’ll need 16” wheels. 

Awesome! Do you have a build thread on here? I would love to know all the specs of your build. I'm highly leaning towards the 14 bolt in the rear. 

And the wheel wells look to be just fiberglass. Instead of using the stock fridge I'm installing my ARB fridge out of the LC. And instead of the huge Stove/Oven there will be a chuck box that is removable to cook outside or inside. so I will basically be re-building that section and am perfectly happy to do some fiberglass work to fit larger tires if needed. I'm a large fan of fitting large tires with a grinder instead of lifting the vehicle. My friend has 40's on his 80 with a 2.5" suspension lift and a large hammer. 

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10 minutes ago, fzj80joe said:

Awesome! Do you have a build thread on here? I would love to know all the specs of your build. I'm highly leaning towards the 14 bolt in the rear. 

And the wheel wells look to be just fiberglass. Instead of using the stock fridge I'm installing my ARB fridge out of the LC. And instead of the huge Stove/Oven there will be a chuck box that is removable to cook outside or inside. so I will basically be re-building that section and am perfectly happy to do some fiberglass work to fit larger tires if needed. I'm a large fan of fitting large tires with a grinder instead of lifting the vehicle. My friend has 40's on his 80 with a 2.5" suspension lift and a large hammer. 

Check the 1978 sunrader axle swap thread. Not sure how to copy the link. 

Also, you need to measure from your bump stop to the top of the wheel well. You don’t want your large tires crashing up through the floor first time you bottom out. 

Edited by fred heath
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20 minutes ago, fred heath said:

Check the 1978 sunrader axle swap thread. Not sure how to copy the link. 

Also, you need to measure from your bump stop to the top of the wheel well. You don’t want your large tires crashing up through the floor first time you bottom out. 

I'm extremely grateful that you documented your swap. There is a 17' Sunrader in Bend that is almost always parked behind Silvermoon Brewery. And I know of 2 other 18' in town besides my own. One is a factory looking 4x4 and the other is now on a F-250. I will put this here for future reference. http://toyotamotorhome.org/forums/index.php?/topic/8365-axle-swap-foolie-to-1-ton-full-float/

Good idea about the bump stops, I will openly admit I haven't done this kind of project before. I have the skills to use the tools safely. torch, grinder, welder etc. But Ive personally never set up a drivetrain and custom built a suspension. 

I guess I could put the Toyota dually under my little 94 pickup when I'm done with it. Ooooh maybe a little flatbed with really tall removable sides for getting firewood. 

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  • 2 months later...

Just a quick update. Not much progress has been made. I spent Jan in Florida and we've been getting some decent winter weather here in central Oregon since I've been back. I've used this down time to really think about what it is that I would like to do with my build. After researching other Sunrader builds that are documented, reaching out to owners and talking Annas ear numb I've decided to go a completely different route. Here are some photoshops I did to help me get to this point. 

My initial plan of extending the wheelbase on the 85 4x4 pickup and transplanting the cab and camper to the 4x4 chassis has changed. The general consensus seems to be that the small Toyota pickup isn't sufficient for true off-roading, despite being a 4x4. I spent a lot of time researching how to set up the suspension. Swap in the 14 bolt chevy axle. What my options for lug patterns and wheels are and it just always seemed to be a compromise. I absolutely adore the factory 4x4 trucks. Ascetically they are so cool! However I can't let that dictate this build and compromise safety and performance. 

So I started playing with photoshop! Chevy 2500HD and 3500 can be found extremely cheap with a reliable v-8 engine and the same 14 bolt axle I was going to use anyway. And I think the lines of the late 80-90s chevy pickups look very similar to the 84-88 toyota pickups. nice and square. 

This is probably the most likely option however I would probably want to upgrade to a newer truck. These old Chevys are reliable. I've had 2 of them about 10 years ago. however they're getting old and I don't remember them being as reliable as my Toyotas. When I started looking at would be required to fit the camper to the chevy I noticed the wheelbase is about a foot longer then it is currently. However If I do a bunch of fiberglass work and then switch to a different pickup truck I would be limited on wheelbase or have to re-do the wheel wells again. This has led to the decision that I should just turn Sunny into a flatbed camper. This design allows the camper to be places on any truck with a tray on the back regardless of wheel wells. And If I don't find a truck I could even mount it on a trailer and just pull it with Ruby. 

 

Since I don't have a trailer but I do have the ability to convert the existing truck frame into a trailer I might try that. I think it will be a little tongue heavy but since I will be removing the cab from the frame anyway I think that's a decent start. Here is what all this could possibly look like 

chevy sunrader.JPG

ford sunrader.JPG

4runner sunrader.JPG

sunrader trailer.jpg

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I will likely lower the floor like my friend did for added headroom inside the camper and so that it will fit over the cabs of larger newer trucks. I'm starting to design a fully supporting sub frame that will have jacking mounts so that the camper can be lifted from the trailer to a flatbed or just free standing. I will most likely modify the wheel wells to accommodate the most common wheelbases and tire sizes up to 37". I already pulled the appliances that are in the way and plan on re-working that part of the interior regardless. I like the trailer Idea because we need our own trailer so I'm not always borrowing on from our friend. 2 cords of wood is just squeezing by this winter! Perhaps I will photoshop a few campers with subframes and jacks. I think I want the subframe feet to extend out from the camper to allow through bolting in 4 corners. 

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  • 1 month later...

Made some progress on the camper this past weekend! The rear axle is for sale if anyone is looking for a full floating dually. 

My plan is to reinforce the floor with some 3/4" treated plywood that's coated for further weather protection. And then weld up a quick 3x2 metal frame and put that under the plywood. that way in the future I have something to connect camper jacks to and it will be a free standing flatbed camper. It will add a little weight but the simple interior should help compensate for that. And the fact I plan on putting it on a 1-ton domestic truck or a trailer. 

cab.JPG

camper.JPG

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2 minutes ago, TigersRreal said:

Man, you must have some cool neighbors! hahaha no but really great progress - lookin good!

Thanks! We definitely don't have an HOA...

It's an interesting task, I wasn't sure how it would go but I just took my time and slowly separated the two.

Progress is just beginning now that the snow has melted!

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I'm not sure the overhead on the Sunrader can take the stress of the road completely unsupported. I recently saw a Chinook camper mounted on a newer 2000 era Chevy truck. Just got a glimpse cause it was going the other way but it looked pretty darn good. An extra cab truck can take up some of that excess space in the wheel base so the fit is better. 

Linda S

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I have been wondering the same about the straight of the over cab portion. I think I will have to slide some sort of spacer between the top of the cab and the bottom of the bed so it is supported. It might even be something that I do before climbing into bed. 

 

I have been looking at the early 2000 2500HD. 14 bolt full floating rear axle. 6.0 vortec v8 and decent prices. I think it would look better on the extended cab but I'm leading towards a regular cab for a shorter wheelbase, tighter turning radius and better offload performance. Theres probably more F-250s in regular cab then the chevys. 

 

I can always fiberglass in some extra support since I'm closing the current passthrough on the front of the camper. 

 

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  • 3 weeks later...

I sold the dually axle, cab and chassis,  and the Black pickup. and made enough money to buy a 1991 GMC K2500.  Not as nice as the newer 2500hd. But it fit the budget and I wanted to keep this project moving along. 

This truck has a published payload capacity in the glovebox of 2,669lb. 

It is the C6P code 8 lug truck with a 8,600lb GVW

14 bolt 9 1/2"  semi floating 8 lug rear axle with a 6,000 gross weight

factory 4.10 gears and rear Eaton Locker

4L80-E Transmission

Heavy duty radiator for towing. engine and tranny cooler. 

Old tired 5.7 engine!

 

Im deciding between building a flatbed or just mounting the camper directly to the frame. I will most likely be lowering the floor but might not do it right now so we can use it for the summer. 

 

 

k2500.JPG

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How well does it work out in terms of where the fenders are on the shell relative to the wheels on the truck? 

Will the shell have to sit kind of high on the bed in order to get the "sleeping loft" to be above the truck roof?   

Perhaps you could take the bed off and weld a basic angle-iron frame to the truck rails.  You could put boards into this frame to make a flatbed when you need that kind of truck, and then remove them and mount the camper shell right onto this frame when it's time to go camping.  maybe even just U-clamp the shell to the flatbed frame so it can be more easily removed.  With the right design you could still have the "drop floor" along the center walkway in the camper.  You would probably have to get up under the shell and do some welding to do this.   Just a thought... 

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On 12/20/2018 at 12:51 AM, WME said:

One of these were my trail runners for many years in many countries...Muddy rice paddies and those skinny FOD tire were not a good combo. The last year I was in the "business" we got Hummers. They had on the roll deflate/inflate functions and were totally a whole new game, but too wide for rice paddy dikes.

MRC108-08.jpg

 

 

Bet you loved that “33” beer. 🙂

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  • 6 months later...

Well It was a busy summer, I started a new business and have decided I won't have the time in the upcoming year or two so that I can finish this camper project. I figure its better to see if anyone wants to pickup where I left off then to move it to the back yard and have it sitting for a few years. I'm looking to break even if possible. about $1,850. https://bend.craigslist.org/rvs/d/redmond-1984-toyota-sunrader-trade/7007651181.html

IMG_1409.jpeg

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